Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Red Baker]

Again Christ never referred to those who believe in him as dogs or swine.

No one has said that he did. Tom, it is "you" that is guilty of using a logical fallacy called~Conflation fallacy. I said repeatedly to you, that Christ spoke to religious folks who profess to be children of God, now you can take that and spin it whatever way you desire, to make it sound like I said the Lord called his children swines and dogs, when in truth I never even hinted at that, much more said it directly. You are being deceitful, or just not listening carefully and understanding what is being said. Most folk only hear what they want to hear, and I truly believe that the problem here.

Further I believe it is you who has another gospel

Wishful thinking sir, wishful thinking. So, we stand upon the true grace of God, without the works of the flesh, and you think that's another gospel?

We teach that the sinner is justified solely by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, not by his faith or obedience. We teach that Jesus secured eternal life for God's elect by himself without man having a part in his salvation, and to you, that's another gospel! You, are deceived to speak mildly.

A gospel which does not have Christ as its focus because it exists outside of Christ

The bible is clear salvation is found only in Christ

How powerful is deception! You are proving it with every statement you make!

How does one get into Christ legally? He is chosen/predestined to be in Christ by the grace and will of God only.

Ephesians 1:3-6~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

It is not based on unconditional elect, but a relation based on union with Christ

You are guilty of resisting the Holy Ghost, a perfect picture of someone doing this according to the scriptures deal with Ephesians 1:3-6 above to prove your position..... of course you will not, because you cannot.

further, you have not addressed any of the scriptures I posted showing faith is before regeneration

I have gone down that road more than once with you, not going to do so again. I could do it once more, and you still would come back and say the same thing, the reason being is, because you have no defense, or support from the word of God, so what do you do? Post the same eight or nine scriptures, thinking that's enough to prove your point, you never give the sense of any scriptures you post, because you do not have the ability to do so, so there...keep posting those same scriptures, they prove nothing in defense of your work gospel.

 

[TomL]

No one has said that he did. Tom, it is "you" that is guilty of using a logical fallacy called~Conflation fallacy. I said repeatedly to you, that Christ spoke to religious folks who profess to be children of God, now you can take that and spin it whatever way you desire, to make it sound like I said the Lord called his children swines and dogs, when in truth I never even hinted at that, much more said it directly. You are being deceitful, or just not listening carefully and understanding what is being said. Most folk only hear what they want to hear, and I truly believe that the problem here.

So why did you quote him to justify your ad hominem

Wishful thinking sir, wishful thinking. So, we stand upon the true grace of God, without the works of the flesh, and you think that's another gospel?

We teach that the sinner is justified solely by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ, not by his faith or obedience. We teach that Jesus secured eternal life for God's elect by himself without man having a part in his salvation, and to you, that's another gospel! You, are deceived to speak mildly.


How powerful is deception! You are proving it with every statement you make!

How does one get into Christ legally? He is chosen/predestined to be in Christ by the grace and will of God only.

Ephesians 1:3-6~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."


You are guilty of resisting the Holy Ghost, a perfect picture of someone doing this according to the scriptures deal with Ephesians 1:3-6 above to prove your position..... of course you will not, because you cannot.


I have gone down that road more than once with you, not going to do so again. I could do it once more, and you still would come back and say the same thing, the reason being is, because you have no defense, or support from the word of God, so what do you do? Post the same eight or nine scriptures, thinking that's enough to prove your point, you never give the sense of any scriptures you post, because you do not have the ability to do so, so there...keep posting those same scriptures, they prove nothing in defense of your work gospel.

You are simply in denial

You have not addressed those verses.

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Never met a Calvinist whom could honestly addresses this

And I have addressed Eph 1:3-6 many times

So you indulge in false witness to match your ad hominem

It does not support you and teaches all heavenly blessing are in Christ

and in fact I use Eph 1:3 to disprove your theology

One is not in Christ until he trusts (believes) in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,

and that happens in time

Romans 16:7 (NASB 2020) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

So God chose believers- those in Christ to be holy and blameless

that is a condition

and wasn't it to you I posted the greek breakdown of Eph 1:4 to disprove your claim that that men are chosen to be in Christ and that him was an indirect object

Your claim was refuted

So Eph 1:3-6 does nothing at all to support your view of unconditional election

Ad hominem and two false claims does not do much for your position

 

[Red Baker]

So why did you quote him to justify your ad hominem

Justify an hominem? I have no idea what you are attempting to imply.

I, just like Jesus and Paul, call men what they are by the gospel they are attempting to peddle as God's truth, now you can take that and put any spin you want on it, like all corrupt politicians do. Can I say this any plainer? No I cannot, the problem is with you, and your resisting spirit to the truth.

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life

AND, life by definition must be there before seeing, hearing, and the power to obey can be done! This is not too deep, it just takes a humble spirit to submit to the truth, which you are resisting. You folks even resist logic, that should be easy to grasp.

We are raised spiritually through faith

Tom, you are peddling a lie, pure and simple! God's word said that you are.

Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

The same power that raised Jesus from the dead, raised every single elect child of God from the state of being spiritual dead in tresspasses and sins to life to where they have spiritual eyes, ears, and a new heart to believe and to be able to submit to the God of heaven.

Your gospel is a gospel of devils, a enemy of Christ's gospel at this very moment.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God

God's grace in election makes us children, thereby.....

Galatians 4:4-6~"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

You like everything else have it all backwards!

One is made a child of God through faith

Impossible! You are laboring to put works in before one can be born of God! Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause thereof. Abraham's life proves this, as he have proven. John 1:13 refutes your vain attempt.

John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Impossible to refute this one verse given by the apostle John, impossible. All three, and the only three avenues are closed as far as being the means of one's new birth.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Eternally, legally, vitally, it is before, only practically is it afterwards! Jessu secured redemption when he said IT IS FINISHED! Legally, it was finished. Enough for now on this point, could be expanded very easily.

and wasn't it to you I posted the greek breakdown of Eph 1:4 to disprove your claim that that men are chosen to be in Christ and that him was an indirect object

No me, but let us look at Ephesians chapter one, even though I have addressed 1:13 before, but will do so again~since it was done only once.

I have some meetings, so not sure when I will come back, maybe not today.

Tom, I'm not here to be your enemy, just to be a enemy, but I'm here to defend the gospel of Jesus Christ and will defend it to the best of my God given ability, what little I have to often in defending God's truth.

 

[brightfame52]

As typical you ignore replies

In Christ

In Christ is a condition fulfilled only by trust in Christ

and faith is not a work earning merit

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

As typical you ignore replies

In Christ

In Christ is a condition fulfilled only by trust in Christ

and faith is not a work earning merit

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[TomL]

Justify an hominem? I have no idea what you are attempting to imply.

Imply? I am not implying I am stating

Calling those who disagree with you dogs and swine is ad hominem

I, just like Jesus and Paul, call men what they are by the gospel they are attempting to peddle as God's truth, now you can take that and put any spin you want on it, like all corrupt politicians do. Can I say this any plainer? No I cannot, the problem is with you, and your resisting spirit to the truth.


AND, life by definition must be there before seeing, hearing, and the power to obey can be done! This is not too deep, it just takes a humble spirit to submit to the truth, which you are resisting. You folks even resist logic, that should be easy to grasp.

Sorry that is your assumption about spiritual life which comes through Union with Christ

You do not depend on scripture for your claim but your own assumed theology

Scripture does not support it and show faith precedes the giving of spiritual life

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

It is not fidelity to scripture which drives your understanding but the needs of your assumed theology

Tom, you are peddling a lie, pure and simple! God's word said that you are.

Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

The same power that raised Jesus from the dead, raised every single elect child of God from the state of being spiritual dead in tresspasses and sins to life to where they have spiritual eyes, ears, and a new heart to believe and to be able to submit to the God of heaven.

Sorry all that notes is the working of god's resurrection power in them that believe

It says nothing about God working in unbelievers to make them believe

In fact it posits believing before the working of god's resurrection power

You twist the scriptures

Your gospel is a gospel of devils, a enemy of Christ's gospel at this very moment.

Baseless rhetoric

The gospel concerns Christ and the blessings that are in Christ

but your theology influenced by Manichean gnosticism attempts to extend those blessing to those outside of Christ

and thus is unbiblical

God's grace in election makes us children, thereby.....

Galatians 4:4-6~"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

You like everything else have it all backwards!

sorry no

it is by faith we are made children of God

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

as usual your view is not determined by scripture but by Manichean gnostic principles

Impossible! You are laboring to put works in before one can be born of God! Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause thereof. Abraham's life proves this, as he have proven. John 1:13 refutes your vain attempt.

John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

sorry that speaks to regeneration and supports what i claim

all who believe Gal 3:26, all who receive Christ are given that right

man believes, God regenerates

Man cannot regenerate himself God must do that but god does that when man believes on christ according to multiple scripture

See also the many verses posted above which you never address showing faith precedes life (regeneration)

Impossible to refute this one verse given by the apostle John, impossible. All three, and the only three avenues are closed as far as being the means of one's new birth.

Again that shows man cannot regenerate himself

it does not show that he cannot believe

There are a whole litany of scripture which refute that claim

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

and if God determined them to believe the devil could do nothing

When applied the whole council of God easily refutes your theology

and all you have to offer by way of rebuttal is your assumptions

 

[civic]

Imply? I am not implying I am stating

Calling those who disagree with you dogs and swine is ad hominem



Sorry that is your assumption about spiritual life which comes through Union with Christ

You do not depend on scripture for your claim but your own assumed theology

Scripture does not support it and show faith precedes the giving of spiritual life

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

It is not fidelity to scripture which drives your understanding but the needs of your assumed theology


Sorry all that notes is the working of god's resurrection power in them that believe

It says nothing about God working in unbelievers to make them believe

In fact it posits believing before the working of god's resurrection power

You twist the scriptures









Baseless rhetoric

The gospel concerns Christ and the blessings that are in Christ

but your theology influenced by Manichean gnosticism attempts to extend those blessing to those outside of Christ

and thus is unbiblical



sorry no

it is by faith we are made children of God

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

as usual your view is not determined by scripture but by Manichean gnostic principles






sorry that speaks to regeneration and supports what i claim

all who believe Gal 3:26, all who receive Christ are given that right

man believes, God regenerates

Man cannot regenerate himself God must do that but god does that when man believes on christ according to multiple scripture

See also the many verses posted above which you never address showing faith precedes life (regeneration)






Again that shows man cannot regenerate himself

it does not show that he cannot believe

There are a whole litany of scripture which refute that claim

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

and if God determined them to believe the devil could do nothing

When applied the whole council of God easily refutes your theology

and all you have to offer by way of rebuttal is your assumptions

Amen !

 

[TomL]

Amen !

yes

 

[brightfame52]

As typical you ignore replies

In Christ

In Christ is a condition fulfilled only by trust in Christ

and faith is not a work earning merit

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[brightfame52]

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

you ignored this

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[Red Baker]

Amen !

For whatever it is worth, to you guys it seems not very much~but, I do not call folks swines and dogs over just any doctrine, for saints do disagree among themselves~but, those who peddle a gospel whereby righteousness come to sinners through their works, are just what Paul calls them ......dog.....barking, yapping, nuisance dogs, and whatever other adjectives dogs are known for

I speak for myself as well, if I depart from the pure doctrine of grace to another gospel, then let me be a curse just as Paul said here:

Galatians 1:8​

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

I disagree with some saints over eschatology, but that's not the same as corrupting the gospel, though it may and often does causes separation between them. They are not dogs, or swines, but a believer in error, which there is hope to be corrected~James 5:17-19

 

[civic]

For whatever it is worth, to you guys it seems not very much~but, I do not call folks swines and dogs over just any doctrine, for saints do disagree among themselves~but, those who peddle a gospel whereby righteousness come to sinners through their works, are just what Paul calls them dog.....barking, yapping, nuisance dogs, and whatever other adjectives dogs are known for. I speak for myself as well, if I depart from the pure doctrine of grace to another gospel, then let me be a curse just as Paul said here:

Galatians 1:8​

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

I disagree with some saints over eschatology, but that's not the same as corrupting the gospel, though it may and often does causes separation between them.

How have we corrupted the gospel . Please spell that out for me, thanks

 

[brightfame52]

you ignored this

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[civic]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Faith without works is dead.

Next

 

[Red Baker]

Faith without works is dead.

Next

This is a typical straw man argument~we are not discussing works as an evidence of regeneration, which James' epistle in chapter two does treach.

We are debating the truth of faith being a fruit of the new man who has been created in the image of Jesus Christ by the power of God regenerating God's elect sovereignly according to His will based solely on Jesus having secured the gift of eternal life for them apart from all works on their part.

 

[Doug Brents]

This is a typical straw man argument~we are not discussing works as an evidence of regeneration, which James' epistle in chapter two does treach.

We are debating the truth of faith being a fruit of the new man who has been created in the image of Jesus Christ by the power of God regenerating God's elect sovereignly according to His will based solely on Jesus having secured the gift of eternal life for them apart from all works on their part.

Faith must be evident before the one is reborn into the new man (Eph 2:8). It is through faith that the gift of salvation is received, meaning that the faith must be present before the gift can be received. Faith certainly must continue to be evidenced after salvation is received. But that does not negate the fact that it must be present before salvation is received.

 

[TomL]

Its all about grace, not works/conditions

The elect have always been in Christ,, they are His Seed, and Grace was given them in Christ their head before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works[conditions], but according to his own purpose[election] and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ had a seed in Him even when He went to the Cross Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

you continue ignoring this

you ignored this

No one is in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

before faith they are

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[TomL]

For whatever it is worth, to you guys it seems not very much~but, I do not call folks swines and dogs over just any doctrine, for saints do disagree among themselves~but, those who peddle a gospel whereby righteousness come to sinners through their works, are just what Paul calls them ......dog.....barking, yapping, nuisance dogs, and whatever other adjectives dogs are known for

Newsflash faith is not a work according to Paul

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

So you not only indulge in ad hominem but you deny scripture as well