Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Jesus Said: Matthew 7:6~"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
Paul said: Philippians 3: 1-9: "Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Could spend a lot of time here, but will forebear~the scriptures speak very clear as to what type of dogs to beware of, they have two feet, not four! They boast of the confidence they have in their own flesh, and ability to do spiritual acts without the power of God first causing them to be able to do such things.
Sounds like Holy Spirit is describing perfectly such men as we daily war against, whom God calls dogs, always yapping, laboring to get God's children to trust in the same gospel they have come to embraced and trust in, since it seemly adds a little glory to themselves and gives comfort to their deceived hearts making them think they are not as wicked by nature as the word of God said that every person born of flesh through Adam is.
These men seek to win honour to themselves....... those who count all things as dung, that they may be found in Christ having the righteousness of God that Jesus secured for his elect by his own faith and obedience, put all of their trust and faith in Christ alone. not in themselves, in any works of the law, performed by the energy of human flesh in order to be justified from their sins.
Was Christ and Paul unchristian? Maybe you need to read Matthew 23 over a few times ands see where Jesus called the Pharisees, Jews, lawyers, etc., a generation of vipers, children of the devil~in John 8; etc.
Jesus was not referring to those who believe in him
You are simply indulging in ad hominem in a not so clever manner
BTW you are not Christ
Never even come close to claim to be Christ. But, we do follow his steps in defending the word of God, and calling those who oppose the truth what they are according to the scriptures.
Tom, you fall under Philippians 3 by the gospel in which you desire to peddle as truth. Those in Matthew 23 professed to believe in God and the prophets, yet they were the children of them that killed the prophets and rejected the truth for their own commandments, teachings. etc.
Do you not remember it was the Jews and their leaders who professed that they were never in bondage, much like you and others preached. Hear the word of God:
John 8:30-36~"As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Tom, you sound just like them, you do not believe that man's will is in bondage to sin, but free to do spiritual acts of the gospel, such as to believe on their own, without God first regenerating them.
How ignorant where they! Adam and Eve were taken captive by the devil when they disobeyed God and became his servant serving sin and under his dominion/ bondage. Beside, Israel was servant to other nations, because of their wickedness ~ do I need to name them?
If I'm not representing you properly, then show me what you do believe. Enough for now.
Then why do you justify your ad hominem by quoting Christ. Christ knows the heart you do not. Christ was not addressing those who believe in him as dogs or swine you do
This is nothing more than ad hominem. Wild baseless scurrilous false charges
You simply add ad hominem to previous ad hominem
Quote me
Or be known as a false witness
You mean just like the scripture you deny which shows
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
which requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
So you indulge in ad hominem to justify previous ad hominem and you do so without supporting evidence for your claim.
brightfame52
Well-known member
That God chose individuals to Salvation in Election is bore out by the phrase names, which is personal.
Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6
Rev 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Lk 10:20 “Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”
Phil 4:3 “And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life.” 6
Sorry that is nothing but rank assumption
brightfame52
Well-known member
God’s election is unconditionally His choice, Not based on anything in the chosen If God chose based on what man would do Then election is of works Not grace Rom 11:6 if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Since election praises God’s grace, It can’t be a reward for those who choose God Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Well said. Amen.
Scripture refutes your claim
Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
brightfame52
Well-known member
Election is of Grace to the praise of Gods Grace, so it cant be conditioned on anything a person does Eph 1:4-6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Tom, you have absolutely no clue what the true gospel is, base on you using Romans 4 against grace in support of man's faith having a part of his legal forgiveness from condemnation~these scriptures have been proven in lengthy post to show that faith is the system God has chosen to reckon, or give evidence that one has been born of God, not in order to be born again. Faith on man's part is a work, (and imperfect at best in the very most faithful of God's elect) very clear and plain to them who understandeth, to whom God has given understanding to.
Why should we continue go over the same scriptures with you, when you just resist the witness of the Spirit of God? Once more very quickly, for wahtever it is worth>
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness
This simple, profound, and important clause is of great import to the doctrine of salvation.
What does it mean? How does this act of faith in Abram’s life relate to his justification?
Abraham’s faith at this event was counted to him for righteousness, the grand object of Paul’s gospel of grace (1:17; 3:21; 4:3). How exactly is faith counted for righteousness?
We asked: Was his faith put on a scale of good to be counted (added) toward final justification?
Was this act of faith decisional regeneration of folks like you Tom~at which time Abraham’s old man and will of the flesh finally decided for Jesus, and he was born again, his name was written down in glory, and he was seen for the first time as righteous before God?
This simple, profound, and important clause is repeated several times in the New Testament.
Note … faith was “counted” to Abraham for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; 4:11, 22,23; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23
It is our duty to identify the exact sense of the combined statements about faith.
Consider, “And Abraham believed Jehovah’s promise; and Jehovah counted, reckoned, imputed, and accounted Abraham’s faith in His promise to Abraham for righteousness.” Every man seeks to be righteous before God, to be counted righteous by God; and God here counted Abraham as a righteous man by virtue of his faith in His incredible promise.
Count. To esteem, account, reckon, consider, regard, hold (a thing) to be (so and so).
Reckon. To consider, judge, or estimate by, or as the result of, calculation.
Impute. To reckon or take into account; to reckon, regard, consider.
Account. To reckon, estimate, value, hold (a thing to be so and so).
These words all mean to consider, esteem, hold, or regard (a thing) to be (so and so). They are accounting terms for measuring the value of a person’s conduct (Mat 18:23-24).
Did God repay Abram’s faith with righteousness? Or commend his faith as righteous?
Please note: Abram had great faith and works long before (He 11:8; Gen 12:4,7-8; 13:4,18; 14:20,22).
Why in the world did the priest of the most high God bless him before he was justified? He was already elect to justification before the world began (Eph 1:4; II Tim 1:9; etc.). He was already fully justified in the sight of God by the everlasting covenant of grace. God chose this act of faith to commend and approve Abram as a righteous man, which finds its value in that nothing was done of a meritorious nature, especially Law works. Abram’s example is the antithesis of salvation by Moses’ Law; Abram merely believed.
His legal status did not change, but God’s approval, his assurance, and our learning did!
However, even his faith was not worth much until his great work (Ge 22:12; Jas 2:21-24).
We understand Genesis 15:6 as given to confound Moses’ worshippers and comfort us!
Therefore, these words all mean God considers faith to be the evidence of righteousness. Consider by combining the definitions above, “And Abraham believed Jehovah’s promise; and Jehovah considered, esteemed, held, and regarded Abraham’s faith in His promise as evidence and proof of Abraham’s righteousness. Abraham’s faith was the evidence that God officially recognized (counted, accounted, imputed, or reckoned) Abraham’s righteousness. God formally and scripturally declared faith as the basic identifying mark of justification.
Tom, you have basically three options to prove, and we will hold fast only one of the possibilities.
Tom you and your friends hold Abram was condemned before God and dead in sin, but his faith moved God to regenerate him and legally declare him righteous by Christ’s offered merits.
Calvinists must hold elect Abram was regenerated and therefore believed, simultaneously according to most, and fulfilled the necessary requirement of faith to be just before God.
The truth is: We believe Jesus Christ absolutely, completely, and finally justified all the elect by His substitutionary death on the cross, with faith and good works merely being evidence of it.
His faith could not be a condition, since no man has even the basis for faith (3:10-18).
As we said above~God established faith as the basic and initial identifying mark of justification before God.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Election is of Grace to the praise of Gods Grace, so it cant be conditioned on anything a person does Eph 1:4-6
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Verty true, I do not know hearts, and thereby cannot verify all of God's elect. Nevertheless, I can and must judge your gospel that you preach, teach,~and I have and your gospel is a gospel built upon works~it is another gospel according to Galatians 1 that falls under the curse of God. This should deeply concern you, but it seems as though it does not, and that I cannot change, yet, I will not back down from exposing another gospel that robs Christ's of his glory, whereby, he alone secure eternal redemption for God's elect. per John 17, Romans 3,, etc.; Hebrews 6-11, etc.
We are to follow Christ, and besides, all of God's mature believers have the mind of Christ and know all things that is needed for us to defend truth.
1st Corinthians 2:14-16~"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." If you have a problems with that, then that's your problem not mine, take it up with the Lord. All of God's children have a duty to defend truth, with patience toward all men, yet with all boldness.
Tom, have already addressed this, not going to do so again. I will only say this~Christ was rebuking religious folks who corrupted God's truths, in the name of God, as though they were defending his truth, when in reality they only preached for themselves and their desire for what truth should be and not be. I'll leave it there.
Okay, let me ask you this question: Do you teach man has a free will, and is able of himself to believe, repent, and turn to God without first being quickened to life by the Spirit of God? Speak, for I desire to justified you if you speak according to the word of God, no problem.
We have addressed these every scriptures a few times over. no more. You can do more by answering by question above, and if you do, then I will address your doctype of free will width the word of God. Fair enough? Do not believe we have address that particular subject with you, but would if you desire to do so.
Again Christ never referred to those who believe in him as dogs or swine
You are simply trying to justify the unjustifiable
Further I believe it is you who has another gospel
A gospel which does not have Christ as its focus because it exists outside of Christ
The bible is clear salvation is found only in Christ
It is not based on unconditional elect, but a relation based on union with Christ
further, you have not addressed any of the scriptures I posted showing faith is before regeneration
so saying no more is disingenuous at best
As typical you ignore replies
In Christ
In Christ is a condition fulfilled only by trust in Christ
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its all about grace, not works/conditions
As no one has ever suggested any such thing why do you indulge in this non issue
The point was faith is not a work not contrary to grace according to Paul
if you want to deal with what you call decisional regeneration then you can address these which you never have
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
which requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
We know what impute means
you have not rebuted the fact Paul shows faith as a method of gaining righteousness is consistent with grace
Can you stick to the topic?
Faith as a condition is not meritorious
Please either address that or your denial of faith preceding regeneration
If you want to discuss regeneration deal with the verses posted
Abraham experience was quoted only to show faith is as a condition is not meritorius
Not a single thing you state rebuts what i stated regarding
viz
believing is what man does and it is consistent with grace not a means of accumulating merit
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As typical you ignore replies
In Christ
In Christ is a condition fulfilled only by trust in Christ
and faith is not a work earning merit
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
