Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ? Thats like saying a persons head is elect but his legs and other body members are not,
If Christ is Gods Elect/chosen, which He is 1 Pet 2:4
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
Then so is His Members the Chosen 1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Its the same greek word , because they are His Seed/Generation
So if Christ is Gods Elect, so is His Seed, Generation
I remembered a gentleman back almost fifty years ago, who try to explain away unconditional election, by saying the same thing you are saying; he would always admit the doctrine, but would come back and repeat over and over again, but election is in Christ.... I would then say to him as a young believer in my mid twenties, but Mr. Hanson (he was quite older than I was) Jesus was the head of the elect body of Jesus Christ, yes, we were chosen in him, given to him, for Jesus to be our surety before the law of God, for him to secure our eternal redemption by his obedience, which he did perfectly, in thought, word, and deed, from conception, to death on the cross.
Election of grace is indeed in Christ, and the elect have ever been viewed in Christ from all eternity, and will be to all eternity. We have been loved and considered one with Christ from eternity past to eternity future. Not so with the reprobates. These are the ones Christ prayed for, he never prayed for those outside of him, never.
Either one accept this Jesus here speaking, (John 17:9) or they have another jesus, another gospel, motivated/driven by another spirit.
Last edited:
Rockson
Well-known member
So your argument is because Jesus said in this instance that he wasn't praying for the world that means he only wants the ones who you think of the elect to be saved. But you cherry pick one small verse and you don't consider the whole passage. Verse 23 states there's a purpose why he's praying all these good things for the Christians,
I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.
So what's God's intent of working these wonderful qualities within the Christians? It's so the world will come to know something! And what they come to know can produce a desire within them to want the same as the others. So there's the truth you're seemingly wanting to avoid that God LOVES all sinners. Judge things rightly when it comes to the word of God and stop discouraging people from wanting to come to the Lord!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes He didnt pray for the whole entire world in Jn 17 9 because He didn't die for the whole entire world, but limited to the elect given Him by the Father Jn 17 2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
The world in Vs 23 is the elect Gentile world, Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep[elect] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The problem is one is not Christ until they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
and until they do
Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
So any claim men are in Christ in eternity is just unbiblical
additionally
Romans 16:7 (NASB 2020) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
also refuted your claim
Last edited:
Rockson~first, Jesus clearly said he did not pray for the world. The word world that is used in around fifteen times more or less, I did not count them, and some are used in different senses. Overall, it is used in the sense of the antichrist system that rules in this world. This world God does not love and are under this coming wrath. He has called his people out of this world's system and its way of living after the things of this world, without any thoughts toward God, this world system even hates to retain him in their thoughts, and certainly not to give him glory that is due to him alone. Romans 1, etc.
This will not be fully known until the last day when Jesus returns to gather together his elect from the four winds of the heavens.
Wishful thinking on your part, in order to support your work gospel and hold on to a lie that the natural man has the ability to come to the knowledge of the truth by something to can see in others with a holy desire to have the same! So any scriptures to refute your understanding, that time would fail us to post~besides, you would not accept them anyway, unless God opens your understanding to the truth.
Apart from the Spirit of God indwelling a man, he cannot see the things of the Spirit of God...impossible.
You are going against the word of God~and do so with boldness! God hates all sinners outside of Jesus Christ and his wrath will be pour out upon them just as it was in the days of Noah. You must be of the number that believe Noah might have saved some of them that were destroyed with the water if he only had placed a sign on the ark that read............... "Smile, God loves you"
I do judge according to the word of God~period. Besides, there is not one thing, I, or you can do to stop sinners from coming to Lord whom God calls to come....they will come in spite of all the powers of hell working against them ! Be sure of that.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Christs Seed has always been in Him Eph 1:4, He and they are One. Just like their was a seed of men in Adam in the beginning. Who put Adams seed offspring in him ? Remember he was a figure of Christ, and Christ is called a Adam 1 Cor 15 45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ? Thats like saying a persons head is elect but his legs and other body members are not,
If Christ is Gods Elect/chosen, which He is 1 Pet 2:4
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
Then so is His Members the Chosen 1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Its the same greek word , because they are His Seed/Generation
So if Christ is Gods Elect, so is His Seed, Generation
Pitiful~Ephesians 1:4 comes before 1:13, but not in your false theology. One is chosen in Christ, so that they will believe and come to the knowledge of the truth. The elect were given unto Christ to redeem before the foundation of the world, or before they had done any good or evil. That the election of grace would stand, not works, but of God who calleth.
But, you men are working overtime to labor to bring down a doctrine that God has purpose to stand the time, until he returns again. You are going to lose this battle, be sure of that.
Ephesians 1:13 is not difficult~But is it not the faith itself which is here said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the sealing. I answer, there are two operations of the Spirit in faith, corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it enlightens, and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction, which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, I have said, are the work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel, were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit.
That is a totally absurd argument. The text does not state one is chosen to be in Christ or one is chosen to believe
Instead we saw men are in christ when they believe eph 1:13
They are in Christ in time Rom 16:7
Until they believe they are separate from Christ Eph 2:11ff
which you failed to rebut
No it is not stated faith was sealed
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
clearly men are sealed in Christ after believing
Wake up and respond to what was written
His body is
Elect in him
not as Calvinism teaches apart from Christ.
You did not address this
The problem is one is not Christ until they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
and until they do
Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
So any claim men are in Christ in eternity is just unbiblical
additionally
Romans 16:7 (NASB 2020) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsfolk and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding in the view of the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
also refuted your claim
civic
Well-known member
Context is king so much for the isolated verse which reveals the fallacious argument that was made. Well done
Fool4Christ
Active member
You guys just don't understand Calvinism. World means only the elect. 
Reformed theologians like to argue that “world” in John 3:16 refers to the elect.
From Dr. John W. Tweeddale an academic dean and professor of theology at Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Fla., and a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America.
Reformed theologians like to argue that “world” in John 3:16 refers to the elect.
From Dr. John W. Tweeddale an academic dean and professor of theology at Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Fla., and a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America.
civic
Well-known member
Unreal isn’t it how the simple meaning of words escape some people.You guys just don't understand Calvinism. World means only the elect.
Reformed theologians like to argue that “world” in John 3:16 refers to the elect.
From Dr. John W. Tweeddale an academic dean and professor of theology at Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Fla., and a teaching elder in the Presbyterian Church in America.
Fool4Christ
Active member
Well when you trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes you have to use whatever trick works. As you're well aware of "Word Salad" Is a common tactic.
Of course, men are converted and joined themselves to other believers at different times during the generation in which they live. This does not negate the truth that all were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world, or from all eternity. Paul also said:
Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. All believers are chosen of God. When Rufus is distinguished as the chosen, he must have furnished distinguished evidence of his election. He was chosen in the Lord, for none are elected but in Christ. Their election is without regard to merit in themselves: they are chosen in Christ who secured their salvation for his members, he being the head thereof.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me
The Father gives some to Jesus, and there is no chance that they will not come to Jesus. They SHALL come to Jesus.
and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
And Jesus WILL not reject even one of them. If the Father gives you to Jesus, you WILL come to Jesus and be saved.
The question is, what is opposed to All that the Father gives Me? Those the Father does NOT give Jesus.
That's why "world" cannot mean everyone without exception.
The Father gives some to Jesus, and there is no chance that they will not come to Jesus. They SHALL come to Jesus.
and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
And Jesus WILL not reject even one of them. If the Father gives you to Jesus, you WILL come to Jesus and be saved.
The question is, what is opposed to All that the Father gives Me? Those the Father does NOT give Jesus.
That's why "world" cannot mean everyone without exception.
