Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Doug Brents]

Doug, have you never so much as considered Paul's teaching when he said:

Children of God are children not by their good, or evil, but solely by being children of God's promises and his oath!

Question for you to answer: what did Isaac do to cause him to be born? No one thing~Paul again said:

Why are you and others here fighting against the teachings of the word of God, by laboring to insert your own works into salvation from sin and condemnation, as though you have the power to cause your new birth~which none does, no more than Isaac had to cause himself to be born. The analogy is a perfect picture of the sinner's new birth by God's Spirit alone apart from all works performed by man. You are fighting agains tthe word of God and you will lose this battle every time.

I can see how you get what you are saying. But again, your conclusions do not fit with the rest of Scripture. You are correct that we are God's children only because of what He has done to make us His children. He has adopted us solely because of Jesus' perfection, and He gives us Jesus' perfection when we join His family. The question becomes, when and how does He say we are to become part of His family? There are so many "if this, then that" statements throughout the NT concerning salvation that we absolutely must accept that we receive His salvation and adoption when we obey the things He says lead to receiving salvation.

I will make this short, and if you desire to enlarge upon what I'm going to say, then that's fine with me, I'll respond back.
You understanding goes against so many scriptures, so many! One already quoted above. But there's so many more.


These scriptures are quoted two more times in the scriptures at length in Romans 3 by Paul to prove all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Here we see what God knew as he looked down from heaven from the beginning to the end! You assumption is against the teachings of the word of God, thereby, false testimony. It is all wishful thinking on your part to protect your golden calf you worship. God will grind it to dust.

I'll tell you what was in God's foreknowledge and it is not hard to see. In God's infinite knowledge, he knew that if he did not elect some to salvation by his grace and provide salvation for them in his Son's obedience and righteousness, then none would have ever came to the truth on their own! Not one. Selah! The same is true concerning the elect angels.

So now you are greater than God, and know more than what He said He knew? Did David seek God? Yes, he did (Psalm 34:4). And again in Acts 17:27 we are told that God made us to seek for Him and feel for Him and perhaps find Him. That fact that the Psalmist and later Paul state that none DO seek for God does not mean that none CAN seek for Him. And it is proven false that none DO seek for Him in that David DID seek for Him. I sought for God before I found Him and He rescued me. Many of the people I know have sought for God, and in seeking for Him found Him.

 

[Red Baker]

Rom 3:22 - "but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe"
Sorry, it is faith IN Jesus, not the faith of Jesus by which we receive salvation.

Context drives our interpretation of the word of God~not our personal agenda, or church's doctrine.

Romans 3:20-28~"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

This faith under consideration is Jesus' faith/obedience, not man's~the context proves and demands this interpretation. Your false version is just that a corruption of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ that forgiveness of sin is through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus alone. The KJV has it correctly preserve for us just as the Holy Ghost gave it to Paul to write.

Philippians 3:9~"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

I could write pages on this truth, but enough said. Romans 3:12-20 without question removes man's works of the flesh out of the equation. Our faith even after been born of God is far from perfection, and only perfect obedience/faith can justify before God's law. Jesus alone lived a life of perfection before God's law~and he lived it not as a private person, but as a surety for God's elect, he being the head and all of the elect members of his body.

Phil 1:28-29 - "and in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and this too, from God. 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf"
I can see how, if you just study this one passage, you could come to the understanding that we are saved by Jesus' faith, and not through our own. But this understanding does not fit with the rest of Scripture. As noted in Rom 3, it is our faith IN Jesus through which we receive salvation. And going back to Eph 2:8 - " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". The gift of God is salvation, not faith. Faith is our response to Him, and we get faith through reading the Word of God and understanding (and then acting upon) His faithfulness throughout history.

Doug, the gift of God is salvation from sin and condemnation based on Jesus' life of perfect obedience and faith! The life that Christians live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.

Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Later....RB

 

[Red Baker]

I can see how you get what you are saying. But again, your conclusions do not fit with the rest of Scripture.

It fits perfectly, and allows a constant flow of truth from scripture to scripture~which is the only test to know if what we are holding as truth is indeed God's truth.

You are correct that we are God's children only because of what He has done to make us His children. He has adopted us solely because of Jesus' perfection

Okay, end of story, why continue to fight against this truth?

and He gives us Jesus' perfection when we join His family.

Here's where you begin to stray from the truth. Doug, God's election of grace chose us in Christ and placed us in Christ before the foundation of the world solely based upon his own will and purpose~period! Joining the family of God is the results of God's mercy toward us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

The question becomes, when and how does He say we are to become part of His family?

When you asked?

2nd Timothy 1:9~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

How you asked?

Ephesians 1:19~"And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,"

Doug, the same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead also is the same power that resurrects each and every child of God from the state of spiritual death!

I have a meeting, I'll come back and finish later...

 

[Red Baker]

There are so many "if this, then that" statements throughout the NT concerning salvation that we absolutely must accept that we receive His salvation and adoption when we obey the things He says lead to receiving salvation.

First, give scriptures to support what you are attempting to say.

Secondly,, you are using the word salvation in a very limited sense, when 8it is clearly used in at least five different senses in the scriptures, which we have covered before.

Concerning receiving adoption, there is not one thing we can do to cause God to adopt us into his family and make us heirs with Christ of all things, not one single thing. This goes against the very meaning of the word adoption.

So now you are greater than God, and know more than what He said He knew?

Never even hinted that I did~your Ad Hominem shows your holes in your fortress of faith that you have come to believe in. I said what I said based upon the overall teachings of the word of God~and provided scriptures to prove my position.

Did David seek God? Yes, he did (Psalm 34:4). And again in Acts 17:27 we are told that God made us to seek for Him and feel for Him and perhaps find Him. That fact that the Psalmist and later Paul state that none DO seek for God does not mean that none CAN seek for Him. And it is proven false that none DO seek for Him in that David DID seek for Him. I sought for God before I found Him and He rescued me. Many of the people I know have sought for God, and in seeking for Him found Him.

Doug, no man in the flesh apart from being first born of God will ever seek God~if any do, it is because God first came to them and regenerated them by creating a new man within them which will seek after God, but not until then.

And it is proven false that none DO seek for Him in that David DID seek for Him.

Again we are talking about men as they are by nature, not what they do after they are born again! You arguing against God, not me. Btw, you will lose this battle every time.

 

[Doug Brents]

Context drives our interpretation of the word of God~not our personal agenda, or church's doctrine.

This faith under consideration is Jesus' faith/obedience, not man's~the context proves and demands this interpretation. Your false version is just that a corruption of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ that forgiveness of sin is through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus alone. The KJV has it correctly preserve for us just as the Holy Ghost gave it to Paul to write.

Rom 3:20-28 - "because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
Your focus is in the wrong place. Yes, it is Jesus faithfulness to God that created a way for everyone else to be saved. But how is it determined who receives the benefit of His righteousness? It says in the same quote you posted above. Jesus, because of His own righteousness, is the justifier of anyone who has faith in Jesus. We receive His righteousness based on our faith IN Him.

I could write pages on this truth, but enough said. Romans 3:12-20 without question removes man's works of the flesh out of the equation. Our faith even after been born of God is far from perfection, and only perfect obedience/faith can justify before God's law. Jesus alone lived a life of perfection before God's law~and he lived it not as a private person, but as a surety for God's elect, he being the head and all of the elect members of his body.

Certainly we cannot be perfect, but through our faith (imperfect as it is) we receive His perfect righteousness.

Doug, the gift of God is salvation from sin and condemnation based on Jesus' life of perfect obedience and faith! The life that Christians live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who loved us and gave himself for us.

No doubt about that.

Here's where you begin to stray from the truth. Doug, God's election of grace chose us in Christ and placed us in Christ before the foundation of the world solely based upon his own will and purpose~period! Joining the family of God is the results of God's mercy toward us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

We were chosen before the foundation of the World, but we were not placed in Christ before the foundation of the World. We are placed in Christ when we believe and obey the Gospel. Clearly God knew who would choose Him, but we still have to do the choosing.

When you asked?

The gift of Jesus was planned and given before the foundation of the world. But we did not receive the benefit of that salvation before we were born. If that were the case, then we never would have been lost. But we were lost as Paul says in 1 Cor 6:9-11.

How you asked?

By His power, because we believed (had our own faith in Him).

Doug, the same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead also is the same power that resurrects each and every child of God from the state of spiritual death!

Certainly, and that same power resurrects us during baptism as Paul tells us in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7.

First, give scriptures to support what you are attempting to say.

Rom 10:9-10 - if you believe then you will be made righteous, if you confess Jesus as Lord then you will receive salvation
Gal 3:26-27 - if baptized into Christ then clothed with Christ
Mark 16:16 - if believe and baptized then saved
Acts 2:38 - If repent and baptized then saved
John 3:5 - if born of water and spirit then enter Kingdom of God
John 14:6 - if you come to Me then you get to the Father
Rom 10:13 - if you call on the name of the Lord then you will be saved
And there are hundreds that only say if you believe then you will be saved (Acts 16:31, John 1:12, etc.)

Secondly,, you are using the word salvation in a very limited sense, when 8it is clearly used in at least five different senses in the scriptures, which we have covered before.

Sure, salvation means different things. There is salvation from physical death or harm, which the Scriptures are very seldom concerned with.
There is also salvation from sin, the penalty of sin, condemnation in Hell, etc. And also salvation to Heaven and the reward of righteousness. All of these are the same thing, and Scripture is very concerned with this.

Concerning receiving adoption, there is not one thing we can do to cause God to adopt us into his family and make us heirs with Christ of all things, not one single thing. This goes against the very meaning of the word adoption.

Clearly we cannot cause God to do anything. But He is a "man of His word" (if you will pardon the familiarity), and He has said that if we do certain things then He will adopt us. Just as He, through His prophet, told the widow to make him a meal from her last flour and her flour would not cease until it rained again. Just as He, through His prophet, told Naaman to dip in the water 7 times and he would be cleansed. Just as He told the Nation of Israel to march around the city for 7 days and the walls would fall down. He gives blessings to those who obey Him, as He says in Heb 5:9, "And having been perfected, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him".

Never even hinted that I did~your Ad Hominem shows your holes in your fortress of faith that you have come to believe in. I said what I said based upon the overall teachings of the word of God~and provided scriptures to prove my position.

There were no Scriptures in what you posted stating that you could prove what God knew.

Doug, no man in the flesh apart from being first born of God will ever seek God~if any do, it is because God first came to them and regenerated them by creating a new man within them which will seek after God, but not until then.

That is not what Scripture says. It is your fabrication, but is contrary to what we find in Scripture, as was posted in the passages a post or two ago.

Again we are talking about men as they are by nature, not what they do after they are born again! You arguing against God, not me. Btw, you will lose this battle every time.

I stand with God, not against Him. His Word is my only source of wisdom, knowledge, and doctrine. All men are created with a desire for God, and a drive to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27) "and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us". But that drive to seek Him has been perverted by Satan.

 

[Red Baker]

Your focus is in the wrong place.

You are using a false translation, which is impossible for you to even come to the knowledge of the truth. Talking about focusing in the wrong place. I'll stay with one of the oldest translation for the English speaking people of this world, one that our forefather trusted in~one that is free of ever being copyrighted. Another study for another day.

Yes, it is Jesus faithfulness to God that created a way for everyone else to be saved.

This is wrong. Jesus secured eternal redemption for God's very elect.

Hebrews 9:12~"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

But how is it determined who receives the benefit of His righteousness?

How is it determined? By God's oath and promises to the heirs whom were given to Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6:17~"Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:"

John 17:2~"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

Jesus, because of His own righteousness, is the justifier of anyone who has faith in Jesus

God justifieth the ungodly, not men who do righteous deeds.

Romans 4:5​

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

God freely justifies the ungodly by his grace on the behalf of Jesus Christ's being their surety.

Our faith which is the results/fruit of the Spirit of God within us, is the evidence to our conscience that we have been justified by Jesus' obedience/faith/righteousness. You folks are laboring hard to corrupt the gospel of Jesus Christ and free justification based upon the redemption that is in him. If man has the least part in his salvation for sin and condemnation, then he can glory, and take away from the absolutely necessity of Jesus' life of perfect obedience being the only means of sinners being freely justified by grace alone.

We receive His righteousness based on our faith IN Him.

We only receive the knowledge of free justification by faith, the system God has chosen for us to receive the understanding of the many spiritual blessings we have through Christ, and on his behalf.

Certainly we cannot be perfect, but through our faith (imperfect as it is) we receive His perfect righteousness.

Not legally is this so, only in a practical sense we receive the knowledge of free justification through Christ. You folks just have to include works into salvation from sin and condemnation~it is part of who you are, work mongers, thieves' and robbers of Christ's glory. God does not take this very lightly~but has a curse put upon all who do so~Galatians one.

We were chosen before the foundation of the World, but we were not placed in Christ before the foundation of the World. We are placed in Christ when we believe and obey the Gospel. Clearly God knew who would choose Him, but we still have to do the choosing.

I'm coming back to finish keep from being too long for some to consider.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are using a false translation, which is impossible for you to even come to the knowledge of the truth. Talking about focusing in the wrong place. I'll stay with one of the oldest translation for the English speaking people of this world, one that our forefather trusted in~one that is free of ever being copyrighted. Another study for another day.

LOL, I don't trust to just one translation. I study the KJV, the NKJV, the NASB, and the ESV. These translations give word for word translation. I do not study any of the paraphrase or "thought for thought" translations, nor do I study the books that are dedicated to any non-Christian organizations (like the papist catholics).

This is wrong. Jesus secured eternal redemption for God's very elect.

God does not want anyone to be lost, but His will is not the only will that is at work here. God wants everyone to come to salvation, but is willing to allow us to be damned if we do not also choose Him. Jesus secured eternal redemption for everyone who has ever been or ever will be born. But only those who choose Him will receive it.

How is it determined? By God's oath and promises to the heirs whom were given to Jesus Christ.

And who are the heirs? Those who choose Christ and turn away from the world.

God justifieth the ungodly, not men who do righteous deeds.

Everyone was ungodly. But God justifies those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

God freely justifies the ungodly by his grace on the behalf of Jesus Christ's being their surety.

Our faith which is the results/fruit of the Spirit of God within us,

Wrong, our faith comes from hearing the Word of God before we are saved. Our faith is not a fruit of the Spirit.

is the evidence to our conscience that we have been justified by Jesus' obedience/faith/righteousness. You folks are laboring hard to corrupt the gospel of Jesus Christ and free justification based upon the redemption that is in him. If man has the least part in his salvation for sin and condemnation, then he can glory, and take away from the absolutely necessity of Jesus' life of perfect obedience being the only means of sinners being freely justified by grace alone.

Not at all. It is our duty to do what we are commanded by the one we call Lord (Luke 17:7-10). Doing what we are commanded is not "good works" or of merit in any way.

We only receive the knowledge of free justification by faith,

Again wrong. We receive knowledge of justification from God's Word (Rom 10:14-17).

the system God has chosen for us to receive the understanding of the many spiritual blessings we have through Christ, and on his behalf.

Not legally is this so, only in a practical sense we receive the knowledge of free justification through Christ. You folks just have to include works into salvation from sin and condemnation~it is part of who you are, work mongers, thieves' and robbers of Christ's glory. God does not take this very lightly~but has a curse put upon all who do so~Galatians one.

Who is "you folks"?

I am not "include[ing] works into salvation from sin and condemnation". I am reading what Scripture says about what it takes to receive God's forgiveness.

 

[TomL]

This is wrong. Jesus secured eternal redemption for God's very elect.

This election is only in Christ

Unconditional election to salvation is apart from Christ and unbiblical

 

[brightfame52]

This election is only in Christ

Unconditional election to salvation is apart from Christ and unbiblical

Right both Christ and His Body are the Elect. If you acknowledge Christ being elect, you must hold His Body is as well. This Election is before the foundation Eph 1:4. Im afraid you cant have a bodiless Christ who is the Head. Col 1 18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

So when was Christ ever without His Body ?

 

[Red Baker]

By His power, because we believed (had our own faith in Him).

Doug~that statement of yours is a classic oxymoron statement if I have ever seen one. You cancelled out God's power by inserting man's ability to believe without God's power being used! You must believe you are talking to little children who would not know the difference by you using such statements in defense of your position. Again, your fortress of faith has huge holes in it~the sad part, you do not know this, easy picking for those men who are well equip with the truth.

Certainly, and that same power resurrects us during baptism as Paul tells us in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7.

Not going to allow you to pull me into a debate on water baptism in this thread~be more than happy to do so in the proper thread. But, back to you statement:

Certainly, and that same power resurrects us during baptism

Here you have sinners whom the scriptures declares plainly are dead in trespasses and sins, just as dead as Christ in grave, and needed the same power to bring them to life, doing spiritual acts before they have spiritual life! Your doctrine exposes itself as false at every turn, with every statement. if a person is willing to take time and expose it for what it is worth, which is not very much, at some point a man must allow those men to rot in their own false teachings that they are hell bent on pushing forward. Thieves and robbers deserve their end, it come with the what they have chosen to do in life. John 10.

Rom 10:9-10 - if you believe then you will be made righteous, if you confess Jesus as Lord then you will receive salvation
Gal 3:26-27 - if baptized into Christ then clothed with Christ
Mark 16:16 - if believe and baptized then saved
Acts 2:38 - If repent and baptized then saved
John 3:5 - if born of water and spirit then enter Kingdom of God
John 14:6 - if you come to Me then you get to the Father
Rom 10:13 - if you call on the name of the Lord then you will be saved
And there are hundreds that only say if you believe then you will be saved (Acts 16:31, John 1:12, etc.)

I may come back and address these in a separate post, not now. I have already in other thread dealt with most of them.

He has said that if we do certain things then He will adopt us.

Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe! You folks love that word DO in relation to salvation from sin and condemnation. That's the first word in the armenian vocabulary.

That is not what Scripture says. It is your fabrication, but is contrary to what we find in Scripture, as was posted in the passages a post or two ago.

Read Romans 8:1-14. Those in the flesh, cannot please God, impossible. You are arguing with God's word, not me.

I stand with God, not against Him. His Word is my only source of wisdom, knowledge, and doctrine. All men are created with a desire for God, and a drive to seek Him (Acts 17:26-27) "and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us". But that drive to seek Him has been perverted by Satan.

Doug, EXACTLY! God created Adam perfectly, upright and placed in in a perfect world with all he needed to continue in the state in which he was created. What God did not do for Adam was to secured him in that state, but left him to his own power, even though perfect and without indwelling sin, yet God left him to himself to continue. We all know the end result of that! The Devil deceived our first parent AS SOON as God left them to themselves! Proving that God ALONE IS IMMUTABLE. It just was not perverted by Satan, but, he robbed Adam of the power to seek and love God, he died spiritual the very second he sinned and became at enmity against God.

Under the new covenant God secured our eternal redemption by his Son Jesus Christ, for all that were given to him by his Father.

 

[TomL]

Doug~that statement of yours is a classic oxymoron statement if I have ever seen one. You cancelled out God's power by inserting man's ability to believe without God's power being used! You must believe you are talking to little children who would not know the difference by you using such statements in defense of your position. Again, your fortress of faith has huge holes in it~the sad part, you do not know this, easy picking for those men who are well equip with the truth.

Scripture shows otherwise

Given revelation man is capable of belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.





The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith

 

[Red Baker]

So when was Christ ever without His Body ?

Never!

Psalms 139:13-16~"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them"

 

[Red Baker]

Scripture shows otherwise

You sure have not even come close of proving it and you never will since at almost every turn you will be found wanting.

Quickly:

unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

You are assuming that three of four hearers were ungernater, which is false, all four were regenerate, but the word only profit one of them. Another subject for another day.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

Tom. why do I even waste my time with men like you? You go into the face of so many scriptures that time would fail me to go into this. I have on many instances, but not any more with you. You do not deserve the time of men of God who should be using their time more wisely.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

What made the difference bewtween the two?

Acts 13:48~"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Tom~not wasting my time with you.

 

[TomL]

You sure have not even come close of proving it and you never will since at almost every turn you will be found wanting.

Actually scripture proves so quite easily

Given revelation man is capable of belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.





The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith

Quickly:

You are assuming that three of four hearers were ungernater, which is false, all four were regenerate, but the word only profit one of them. Another subject for another day.

Lets see

Luke 8:11–15 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.


1) 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

unsaved hence unregenerate. Your first error

2) 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Did they lose their salvation as they fell away

either they never had it or they lost it. in any case your theology is in error again

3) 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Are you going to claim a regenerate person can bare no fruit

Your third error



4) 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Finally one who you can claim are regenerate

You did rather poorly there

Tom. why do I even waste my time with men like you? You go into the face of so many scriptures that time would fail me to go into this. I have on many instances, but not any more with you. You do not deserve the time of men of God who should be using their time more wisely.

Excuses

How is it I have the time to post these scriptures, but you have no time to address them all

A true man of God would

What made the difference bewtween the two?

Here

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

they themselves did

The point

The preaching of the word is capable ofg belief.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Tom~not wasting my time with you.

Translation you cannot address all the verses opposed to your theology

I have come to expect it

 

[brightfame52]

Never!

Thats correct. Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ?

 

[TomL]

Thats correct. Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ?

but not unconditionally but in Him

Election is in Christ

 

[brightfame52]

but not unconditionally but in Him

Election is in Christ

. Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Exactly. And it's God who decides to enable to come to Him.

Romans 9 in a nutshell.

 

[TomL]

. Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ?

Men are elect, soteriologically speaking in him

Calvinism gets it wrong

 

[brightfame52]

Men are elect, soteriologically speaking in him

Calvinism gets it wrong

Now can He as the Head be Elect and His Body not ? Thats like saying a persons head is elect but his legs and other body members are not