civic
Well-known member
ditto
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
God doesn't CAUSE anyone to believe. God ENABLES one to believe.
John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Behold
Well-known member
First, get rid of the NIV.
Its not a real bible.
It'll ruin your faith.
Also, your verse, is Jesus talking to Jews, about the Apostles being given to Him.
No one was born again in John 6, as Jesus had not died on the Cross yet.
Why don't you know this ? @The Rogue Tomato ?
See what a CULT does to you?
See it?> /?????
A Calvinist mind is so saturated with pagan presuppositions that it is blind to logic and English language comprehension. That's why their language comprehension is consistently dirt poor and their logic is consistently wacky.
Behold
Well-known member
A Calvinist mind is so saturated with pagan presuppositions that it is blind to logic and English language comprehension. That's why their language comprehension is consistently dirt poor and their logic is consistently wacky.
Where Calvin became under a curse was this one..
"limited atonement"..
As THAT, denies the Cross of Christ and spits on the Grace of God.
Calvin didnt die well, as his type never does.
That is a doctrine from the demons.
I'm curious. How did Calvin not die well?
civic
Well-known member
Where does the text mention belief/faith ?
You are making an assumption and reading your doctrinal presuppositions into the verse. That is poor hermenuetics and known as eisegesis.
Behold
Well-known member
"sickbed" till death.
If you really dig into the history of the people who knew him, he comes across as a paranoid tortured human being, as a "later adult".
Maybe that is because he was worried in the end that he was not one of the "pre-destined".
What a "doctrine of devils' was that one.
He spit on the Cross, He hated John 3:16...... as "limited atonement", and his theology poison's the reader's mind against God's Grace.
Just reading it can ruin your faith and walk of faith for life.
Calvin will have you teaching that you are born again before you give God your faith in Christ.
What does that mean?
It means that God has joined a SINNER before they are Forgiven.
= SATANIC LIE
it means that Calvin and his OWNED... teach that God gives the new birth before God forgives your sin.
That is "Theological insanity"... gone to seed.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Where does the text mention that it's only meant for Jews and apostles?
That is their Living Dead doctrine, clearly a doctrine of demons.
Behold
Well-known member
Totally : Hebrews 13:9
civic
Well-known member
evasion we are talking about the verse you quoted in John 6:65
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those for whom Jesus died will be born again and believe. New Birth and Believing in Christ is a fringe benefit of His Death and Resurrection. How were these born again according to peter 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Esv
Agreed
Not even under consideration.
These words of Jesus were spoken in support of what he had said earlier:
Drawing is the same thing as calling one from death to life in Jesus Christ. The reason why no man can do this on his own, is every man is without spiritual strength to deliver himself from the power of sin and its lusts. Christ's life and death and resurrection from the dead secured this for every single elect child of God.
I could spend a lot of time here, but will forbear~I will only say this for now: If sinners are saved by Jesus' obedience and they are; by his blood, and they are; by his life alone and they are; then legally, our works (including faith) cannot be the means of our legal justification, impossible and still be true that justification legally speaking is of man's works, or conditions to be fulfilled before one is born again.
To hold to the doctrine, that no one was born again before Jesus died on the cross, is almost unbelievable anyone could possible believe in such a teaching in light of thousand of scriptures that would prove otherwise. Hebrews 11 alone should prove this to any person with a little of light from heaven! I'm not going to waste much time on this point, since anyone believing in this would be almost impossible to teach them very much truths on other subjects.
Abraham found the same truth on Justification that every NT saints have found~that our faith is the evidence of free justification by God's grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. ABraham saw Christ's day and rejoice looking forward just as we look backward. Abraham was a friend of God not in his unregenerate state, but as a regenerate child of God. It was given to him to believe in God and his promises, just as it is given to all after Abraham.
Do I ever see! Sad that you do not ~ And I might add...you never will as long as you reject the doctrine of free grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ's obedience/faith/righteousness. Selah.
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You are confused to speak mildly.
You are misquoting John 3:3 and the very purpose that verse is in the holy scriptures. Jesus spoke those words to a man that came to Jesus with a very child like confession.
Nicodemus' confession is totally different from the other Pharisees who said that Jesus did miracles through the power of Beelzebub. Based upon Nicodemus' words, Jesus came back and said:
But Nicodemus did see that no man can do what Jesus did except God be with him! Nicodemus' confession is as humble, godly and sincere as anyone of us on this forum! His knowledge concerning spiritual truths was pitiful much like others on most forums and in most churches that think they are sound biblically speaking.
Bottom line, you and many others are missing the very reason why this discourse is recorded for us in God's word! The new birth is a birth by the Spirit of God alone~knowledge of spiritual truths come over a period of time, longer for some than others, may even come over years, and may not even come for some of God's children! Nicodemus did not leave the Pharisees, but did come for Jesus' buried. May have left later, we do not know. John 7:50-53; John 19:38.
I'm coming back to address this.
civic
Well-known member
Yes the new birth comes after one believes, not before one acts in faith in the gospel message. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ- Rom 10:17. We are born again after hearing the word. 1 Peter 1: 23.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Again, you've shortened the verse. It's not "Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ". It's "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing [comes] by the word of Christ." If Christ doesn't give you hearing, the Gospel will be nonsense to you.
Civic~you are not hearing what Paul is clearly stating in light of the overall teachings of the word of God. The bible is one cohesive whole of one truth on the "particular doctrine" under consideration.
Faith does indeed comes by hearing, and that by hearing the word of God, on whatever is under consideration. Whatever faith you and I have in any particular doctrine we got that faith from hearing the scriptures. Newborn babes grow by milk~yet life must first be there before they would even desire the milk~no different in the spiritual realm. To believe otherwise is to purposely close one's eyes and ears to the truth.
1st Peter 1:23 is not even speaking about the word of God being the means of our new birth, but being the means of us knowing how one is born again! Again, proving faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God! Selah.
I have explained this 1st Peter 1:23 recently, but would be happy to do so again if needed.
As you would say.....I trust this helps!
When I read your words here, I'm reminded of what the LORD said unto Job:
Your words instead of giving light to men, actually darkens the truth from being seen!
Where did Jesus say this in the words you are using? No where.
This wonderful verse is not a conditional scripture, as so many desire to make it to be~but a scripture declaring biblical truths. One being that those that believe will not perish, but they have everlasting life. It does not even come close of saying what you have posted in support of your false gospel that has man being his own saviour by his faith, which is impossible for those who are at enmity against God to have~per Romans 8:5-8.
No problem with John 3:16, I have read thousands of time in the last fifty year since I first came to Christ back as a young man in my mid-twenties. Besides, I'm not a Calvinist in the sense of folks understanding of Calvinism.
World in John 3:16, and all in John 12, is very easy to understand when we put the proper sense upon the reading of God's word, by comparing scriptures with scriptures~no problem whatsoever. For now, I will only say this, since I have a meeting coming very soon. World in John 3:16 means ALL without distinction, not all without exception as you desire it to mean! Jesus was revealing to Nicodemus that God's love was not limited to the Jews only, but altos to the Gentiles. Among them botch he as an elect people!
For God so loved the world=Jews and Gentiles! In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, no longer is taht so! I have many other verses to support this interpretations if needed.
Is this all you have to offer in support of your work gospel? Pitiful! No surprise to me, and it should not be to others as well.
Actually, it is folks like you who deny the cross of Christ~need proof?
Again:
The scriptures are clear that that Jesus Christ acted as a surety for God's elect only not for all men without exceptions. If you reject this bible truth, you are guilty before God of denying a truth which is taught from Genesis until the end of the word of God, and you fall under the same curse as all false prophets throughout the word of God and the very ones mentioned by both apostles, Peter and Jude.
You tell me how folks deny the Lord that bought them~the church of Jesus Christ~by saying our Lord Jesus Christ did not just bought them but every single person that ever lived~blasphemy! He died only for the elect sheep of God Almighty. We can discuss this truth as much as you think you can defend your false gospel, which will not be very long, pretty sure of that.
You are guilty of turning the grace of God into lasciviousness by saying Jesus Christ, loved, and died for sinners, who leave this world hating God, his truth, and his people~blasphemy! That's another gospel, not taught in the word of God, but from the heart of Satan himself, who was not one of the elect angels.
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