Rockson
Super Member
Me? Nope YOU.
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. 1 Pt 3:15
Or are you going to twist this too saying God doesn't insist that we do that?
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. 1 Pt 3:15
Or are you going to twist this too saying God doesn't insist that we do that?
brightfame52
Super Member
My answer is you have twisted Gods word to make it say something it doesnt say, and thats on you
civic
Super Member
exactly Jesus is in direct opposition to calvinism there and in numerous other passages.
civic~let us look at the scripture as it was spoken by Christ.
Your quote from whatever version you used is not the same. Your version reads:
This scripture is actually a condemnation against men in light of God's goodness, and mercy shown even to the rebellious. He causes His rain to come upon both, he sends His sun to warm their faces, so many other things he does, yet, it does not soften their hearts but even make them more harden in their sins against him. God does not take delight in destroying people just to show his power in doing so. I'm reminded of a scripture:
By this quotation from Isaiah, the Apostle proves that the doctrine of the unconditional election of individuals to eternal life~that doctrine against which such objections are raised by many ~ far from being contrary to the ideas we ought to entertain of the goodness of God, is so entirely consistent with it, that except for this election, not one of the nation of Israel would have been saved at any given time during the OT. Thus the doctrine of election, very far from being in any degree harsh or cruel, as many who misunderstand it affirm, is, as we see here, a glorious demonstration of Divine goodness and love. Had it not been for this election, through which God had before prepared vessels of mercy unto glory, neither Jew nor Gentile would have escaped, but all would have remained vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. In the case of the angels who sinned there was no election, and the whole were cast down to into darkness waiting for the day of Judgement. Had there been no election among men, the whole must in like manner have perished~and so would have each one of us living today.
Men by nature~would not come God in faith and repentance, in spite of the manifold blessings all receive each and every day.
Side note to consider: At the end of Matthew 23:37 There is a exclamation mark which is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or to show emphasis, proving the sin was on their part, Their will was in bondage to sin and its lust!
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Rockson
Super Member
Sorry but this is slippery and murky talk here that doesn't make coherent sense. It is what Jesus said it was....that he longed to gather people for salvation THAT WAS God's will but they were resisting him and rejecting him. Mt 23:37 And he told them the judgement that would come their way and it did but all the time it WAS God's will for them to be saved.
The Rogue Tomato
Super Member
12 Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. 13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
Imagine the Creator of the universe angry at the fig tree because it was not the season for figs. As if He doesn't know the times and seasons. Obviously, there is a symbolic meaning to this passage. (And pay attention to the fact that he cursed ONE fig tree, not ALL fig trees.)
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
They were not willing because it was not the season for figs.
Now, when Jesus talked about the future in Matthew 24:
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
When it is the "season for figs", God will give them hearts to make them willing.
This has a perfect parallel to Deuteronomy where God says He has not yet given them eyes to see, etc., but that in the future He will write His laws upon their hearts.
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Greetings Rockson~I'm leaving shortly, but should be back later today and I will address your post~in the meantime, can you prove to me that salvation from sin and condemnation is even under consideration in this verse? Pretty sure you will have trouble proving this~But we shall see.
Rockson
Super Member
I believe I can and certain scriptures come to mind but that's not even the point. The point is if everything is ORDAINED as Calvinists put forth there would be no deviation from God's will on any level. We can see clearly from Jesus stating he longed and willed to gather them but they were not willing that God's will is not always being done.
civic
Super Member
Romans in context is about the NATIONS, not individuals.
The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.
Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.
There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.
Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
hope this helps !!!
Rockson
Super Member
So if I'm understanding this correctly wouldn't this mean even the ones defined as vessels of wrath it doesn't necessarily mean they have to stay this way by some predestination decree? So if even they do not continue in unbelief they can be grafted back into the life of God?
civic
Super Member
Believe
Active member
There is no such a thing as the Calvinistic form of unconditional election, or even an irresistible grace. The systematic approach of the Calvinist is not consistent with the biblical revelation. The biblical condition is faith in Christ—being clothed in his righteousness.
The Scriptures do not leave us wondering why God shows favor to some people and not others, as if it is a mystery hidden within his arbitrary will. Luke 1:50 tells us, “His mercy is from generation to generation / on those who fear him.” Isaiah 66:2b says, “I will look favorably on this kind of person: one who is humble, submissive in spirit, and trembles at my word.” It is not a secret or mystery to whom God reveals his truth, as the psalmist clearly stated: “He leads the humble in what is right and teaches them his way” (Ps 25:9). And God himself said, “ ‘This is what the LORD God of Israel says: As for the words that you heard, because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become a desolation and a curse, and because you have torn your clothes and wept before me, I myself have heard’—this is the Lord’s declaration” (2 Kgs 22:18b–19).
Again and again throughout the Scriptures, the Lord tells us what condition must be met to find favor in his eyes: “I tell you, this one [the humble tax collector] went down to his house justified rather than the other, because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted” (Luke 18:14). And in Matt 23:12 we read Christ’s words: “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
Leighton Flowers, “A Critique of Unconditional Election,”
The Scriptures do not leave us wondering why God shows favor to some people and not others, as if it is a mystery hidden within his arbitrary will. Luke 1:50 tells us, “His mercy is from generation to generation / on those who fear him.” Isaiah 66:2b says, “I will look favorably on this kind of person: one who is humble, submissive in spirit, and trembles at my word.” It is not a secret or mystery to whom God reveals his truth, as the psalmist clearly stated: “He leads the humble in what is right and teaches them his way” (Ps 25:9). And God himself said, “ ‘This is what the LORD God of Israel says: As for the words that you heard, because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become a desolation and a curse, and because you have torn your clothes and wept before me, I myself have heard’—this is the Lord’s declaration” (2 Kgs 22:18b–19).
Again and again throughout the Scriptures, the Lord tells us what condition must be met to find favor in his eyes: “I tell you, this one [the humble tax collector] went down to his house justified rather than the other, because everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted” (Luke 18:14). And in Matt 23:12 we read Christ’s words: “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”
Leighton Flowers, “A Critique of Unconditional Election,”
brightfame52
Super Member
Believe
Active member
That is so funny that you would say that because that's the classic Calvinistic excuse. The truth of the matter is the only “qualification” is that we humbly confess our lack of qualification by putting our trust in the qualification of another, namely, Christ Jesus.
brightfame52
Super Member
When you add conditions, that automatically defaults to works salvation, kiss Grace goodbye !
Believe
Active member
Who added any conditions?
Alive
Member
Conditions? We don't need no stinking conditions? But seriously, even our Calvinistic friends affirm that salvation itself is conditioned upon faith. They just believe that faith is a condition that is ultimately met by an effectual act of God upon those unilaterally chosen before the foundation of the world. So, while Calvinists agree that certain conditions must be met before one will enter heaven, they maintain God unilaterally decided before creation to cause certain individuals to meet those conditions, while leaving the rest innately incapable of meeting those same moral conditions, due to factors ultimately beyond their control.
brightfame52
Super Member
You did, read your post.
Believe
Active member
I think you need to read the post that's a Biblical condition, I didn't add it, it's always been there.
brightfame52
Super Member
I did read it, you said its a qualification to become saved, once you add that, its works.
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