The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
So much animosity for what the Bible clearly says. I'm ashamed of some of you.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Truth hurts, especially when fallacious Calvinist presuppositions are exposed to the truth.
Why do you omit faith
Ephesians 2:8 (NASB 2020) — 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
It is a condition
Election is in Christ
One is in Christ through faith
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
again conditional
There is no unconditional election to salvation
Nothing there about unconditional election of salvation
It's about service, the choosing of peoples to carry God's message to the world and to bring firth the messiah
Paul disputes you
Romans 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Um according to scripture Christ died for all
Christ died list
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
even judas
Luke 22:14–23 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! 23 And they began to inquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
you seem to have a problem with scripture
brightfame52
Well-known member
Paul Illustrated how election is unconditional with the Twins Rom 9:11-13
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion, other than your conclusions all are support by what you want to see and not want to see~much like those Christ spoke about here:
Your kind has been in every generation since the beginning of time. I clearly said these words:
Once more.....not in regenerating a man that is at enmity against God, we are not to cast pearls of truths before such people, we leave them alone to rot in their hatred against God. We seek out those just as Paul did, who had a sincere interest into the things of God, men willing to hear what God's word has to say~we look for life, not death! We can only help those who have signs of life, much like Nicodemus coming to Christ, without very much understanding of true biblical doctrines, those are the ones we are commanded to be patience toward, as long as they continue showing a desire to be help. God is more than able to bring a trembling Jailor to the feet of those that can lead them into a proper knowledge of the truth and by showing them words whereby they can be saved ~ saved in a practical sense after God first quickens, creates a new man within them by the same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead.
If you want to discuss this subject with me, let us do so, in a separate thread. civic started a discussion with me on another forum, on this subject~he posted and answer back and he never again responded as far as I know, I have not check it out in a week or so. I would love to discuss this subject. I believe in the Trinity in the way the bible teaches this doctrine not the way the Nicene Creed of the RCC does.
In a few words: Jesus Christ is the True God and eternal life~but God was not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Godhead ...... he is I AM THAT I AM~the Alpha and the Omega, the everlasting Father of all things in His deity as God. In this sense he was before Abraham, and the God of Abraham. Jesus Christ as the Son of God, had a beginning in time and that beginning is recorded for us in Luke chapter one, the only beginning we have a record of from heaven. There is no such doctrine as the eternal Son of God. John Calvin believed in that doctrine, I do not, and neither did Michael Servetus~Historians record his last words as: "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me." What Servetus' believed exactly we shall never know since his works were burned with him. But if true concerning his last words, then I would make the same confession.
The only God we shall ever see with our eyes will be Jesus Christ, for God is a Spirit, that lives in eternity, always has, always will that will never change.
Whether or not a person believes in the eternal Sonship doctrine or the Incarnate Sonship doctrine does not determine his own sonship with God, since many have never even consider the doctrine. If a person rejects the deity of Jesus Christ being equal to God, that person cannot be of God~Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, and others. Enough for now on this.
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Tom, I'm not wasting my time with you, I have on several occasions, never again, (at least for now) since you truly do not know how to dialogue properly in a profitable discussion.
Here is one reason why it is impossible to reason with folks like you:
This verse has not one thing to do with being the saviour of men in a spiritual sense, but the context proves it is speaking about being the Saviour of men physical needs, foods, etc.
God provides food for ALL through the creatures that he has created, and nothing is to be refused if received with thanksgiving. Knowing he has provided food for all, this makes him the life supporter not only for the lost, specially is this so of those that are believers!
I do not care to enter into a discuss with you, you seem to me to be a very unreasonable person that has no desire to know the truth, you only seeks to disrupt and hinder the truth.
You folks look for sounds bites that may seemly support your doctrine, while men of God look to properly interpret the scriptures for God's glory and honor.
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Sanctification of the Spirit is what results in belief of the Truth. The Salvation they were chosen to was: Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth. They were chosen to believe the Truth by means of the Spirits work of Sanctification. Thats the only way to believe the Truth, by the Spirits work in us.
2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
So belief of the Truth isnt a condition of salvation but the outcome of Salvation
So now it's not only Regeneration but also Sanctification that is before Belief. What's it going to be next? Glorification before Belief? Golly gee man. Your Regenerated (Alive) but not yet Believing (Dead in Sins) caricature of man, the Living Dead, is taking on even more life (pun intended). Keep up your silly understandings. They entertain us.
Rockson
Well-known member
One problem. You forget what the words that shall be saved (future tense) and what the word UNTO means. Unto means you don't have it yet until you DO the prior.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9,10
So you're going to tell me that believing in your heart that Jesus was raised from the dead, wasn't a must to do before one is saved! The text above says you do this FIRST and now watch the tenses....."thou shalt be saved" that's future after you DO the first. There's your condition so I encourage you get rid of your false gospel.
I already said that I think we agree on this. Last time I checked I still cannot regenerate myself by myself. You're arguing a strawman again.
Looks like I stumbled upon your Jugular, Modalism. John 1:1 destroys Modalism when it says, "the Word was with God". That phrase is more accurately translated from the Greek as the Word was face to face with God. Sproul describes it in an excellent way. I highly recommend you view the following youtube recording:
Also, if that's the case then your Patron Saint Calvin would have had you roasted also. It's funny that Calvinists pledge allegiance to those who would have them for supper, or to have them as their supper to be more accurate.
Only God saves. So if Christ is not God then you are not saved by God, pure and simple.
Conclusion: So now we have 2 Jugulars bleeding profusely: The Calvinist Jugular (Calvinist view of Soli Deo Gloria) and your Jugular (Modalism).
brightfame52
Well-known member
We know Election is unconditional as we see how God chose the father of the faithful Abraham out from his native Idolatry Neh 9:7
7 Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
This was a Sovereign Selection of Abraham, and the Elect are his seed and he was a pattern Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
True Believers are that chosen seed Gal 3 7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Meaning if we are chosen we will be of Faith sooner or later, for Faith is a gift to the chosen seed of Abraham.
7 Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
This was a Sovereign Selection of Abraham, and the Elect are his seed and he was a pattern Isa 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
True Believers are that chosen seed Gal 3 7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Meaning if we are chosen we will be of Faith sooner or later, for Faith is a gift to the chosen seed of Abraham.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sanctification of the Spirit and Regeneration are one.
civic
Well-known member
For the Son to be sent the Son must of necessity exist.
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory. cf Jn 1:18- the only begotten Son.
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
Conclusion: The Son is eternal and was sent from the Father who is Eternal. The Father/Son are Eternal.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont see no problem, thats your problem not mine.
You're admitting that you're conflating sanctification with Regeneration. You've just implicated yourself. This was just too easy.
brightfame52
Well-known member
