Synergy, looks like you have some work to do. But, if you want to wait, then fine, I have more to add on another avenue to travel down to prove that salvation from sin and condemnation is totally unconditional.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
I got side tracked by several Calvinists and Jewdaisers. Thank you for all that material you sent me. I'll try to respond to you by tomorrow at the latest. I want to give your material the time it deserves. Thank you for your patience.
Conclusion
How are we saved? By the grace of God through Jesus Christ – no ifs, ands, or buts! By Himself He saved His elect from the eternal judgment they deserve and for His own glory and praise! Not a single one will be lost! His purposes will be fully accomplished! Sinners do not add to His finished work nor activate its blessings! He is more than worthy of our best esteem, maybe not yours. We shall see how you attempt to dance around these posts.Gospel preaching brings the good news of this gracious salvation. It cannot make elect out of reprobates, sheep out of goats, or spiritual men out of natural men; but it can teach, comfort, exhort, and warn the elect to live godly lives in this world, while we wait for Jesus from heaven.
We believe the gospel for the knowledge and comfort of eternal life it gives us (Acts 13:48; 2nd Tim 1:10; Ist John 5:13). It describes God’s wisdom and power in saving us by Jesus Christ (I Cor 1:18, 22-24), and it tells us what to do to please Him while living here (I Thess 4:1). The Bible was written to saints, and preaching should be done to them also (Acts 13:26; II Thess 3:1-2).
Believing the gospel is only an evidence of eternal life, not a condition for it. Verses speaking of faith in Christ are evidentiary facts, not impossible conditions required of dead sinners to save themselves. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are simply emblems to remind us of Jesus Christ.
There is a salvation in the gospel – but it is only a salvation to truth and comfort in this life – it is not a condition, prerequisite, or instrument for obtaining eternal life. We realize a salvation of comfort and hope by remembering the resurrection (I Cor 15:2, 19); saints obtain salvation in godliness and truth by taking heed to themselves and the doctrine (Ist Tim 4:16); and we can all save each other from ungodly living by converting one another back to the truth (Jas 5:19-20).
The whole religious world stands against the truth of unconditional eternal life, for Satan has his Jesus preached by his gospel through his spirit everywhere (II Cor 11:3-4). Synergy, Where do you stand?
The Jesus of God – Jehovah in the flesh – has by Himself fully saved His elect without the loss of one, and without conditions or requirements of any kind or description. Do you love Him?
Does unconditional eternal life create any motive for holy living? It creates the most! For only constant holy living proves you are God’s elect. Rome’s sacramentalism and “faith only” allow any lifestyle, as long as you were sprinkled or made a one-time, emotional decision for Jesus.
If you saw in these post God’s wisdom and power in saving us by Jesus Christ, then you are saved and in possession of eternal life (Ist Cor 1:24; John 3:3; 17:2-3; Ist John 5:20).
If you wish to make your calling and election to eternal life sure, then there are things you should bear in your life as the evidence (2nd Peter 1:5-10; I Tim 6:17-19; Matt 7:21).
If you are thankful for God’s gracious salvation, then you should answer Him with your good conscience in water baptism (I Peter 3:21; Acts 2:37-38; 8:35-39).
If you are already baptized, you need to worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:24; Gal 1:8-9).
Let us humble ourselves before the living God, beg for His mercy, put our trust only in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, obey the gospel fully until He returns, and praise His glorious name!
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Have we so far met your criteria? Probably not, you must say to protect your work gospel. You need to get going soon for we have more to give you.
I've decided to go for the jugular, the main blood vessel of the Calvinist movement. No use fighting small battles here and there. Let's go for all the marbles in this "Part #7 of 7" topic of yours. Here is my response:
Soli Deo Gloria and Calvinism's Zero-Sum Mentality
The source of God's Glory is obviously God. We can all agree to that. What differentiates us from Calvinists is that Calvinists circumscribe/restrict the emanation/propagation of God's Glory to only God which flies in the face of Scripture. This aberration is called the Zero-Sum mentality and Calvinists suffer from that condition.
The Calvinistic Zero-Sum mentality dictates that any role we play must necessarily subtract from God's Glory. Anything that supposedly detracted from God's glory or supposedly obscured it is to be vigorously opposed. This mentality flies in the face of the following Biblical facts:
First of all, the Bible declares the world is full of His Glory (Isaiah 6:3). These are praises from Angels directly in front of the throne of God. This shows that even matter can be filled with God's Glory as was the Burning Bush (Ex 3:4). Another example of God's Glory being infused with matter (Christ's clothing) is during the Transfiguration. (Matt 17:2). CS Lewis once wrote concerning God: “All is holy and ‘big with God’ ... and every bush (could we but perceive it) a Burning Bush. In the end, we can come to see the whole creation as a vast burning bush, alight with God’s glory."
Second of all, the Calvinist Zero-Sum mentality is a stance that goes against the very core of our being. We are Icons/Images of God and as such it is always the good pleasure of God to allow us in the future to "shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt 13:43).
The Calvinist Zero-Sum mentality also infects Biblical salvation. Here several verses that show how we ourselves have a part in our and in other's salvation, clearly undermining once again any Calvinistic Zero-Sum mentality that can possibly be harbored:
James 5:20: "know that he who turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
1 Tim 4:16: "Hold on to yourself and to the doctrine; continue in them, for doing this you shall both save yourself and those who hear you."
1 Cor 9:22: "To the weak I became as the weak, so that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, so that I might by all means save some."
Just so you do not accuse me of avoiding the verses that you think support your Zero Sum view of your Part 7 of 7, all of the verses you mention here will be analyzed to see if they actually promote your case in any shape or form.
Personal opinions are not considered, only Bible verses are.
Rom 4:4 is referring to works of the Law. Nobody practices works of the Law around my circles. We kicked that habit 2K years ago. If your parishioners are still practicing those works then you need to talk to them.
Rom 11:6 is referring to works of the Law. Nobody practices works of the Law around my circles.
Those verses say “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” There is no robbing of any glory if you glory in the Lord.
Of course grace is a gift. Nobody around here said anything to the contrary.
Nobody here is saying not to glorify God for what He is, for what He has given us, and the mercy He has given us.
Nobody around here worships another God.
1 Cor 1:31 says, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” There is no robbing of any glory if you glory in the Lord.
Nobody around here is denying that God has done things for Himself.
We always give thanks to God for everything.
2 Th 2:13 proclaims that election onto salvation is through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. That proves that Election onto Salvation is Conditional.
In fact, what we do talk about is Justification by/through Faith.
(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
(Rom 4:5) But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Rom 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Gal 2:16) knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.
(Gal 3:8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed."
(Gal_3:24) So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
In Him we were elected (Eph 1:4), we were predestined (Eph 1:5), we were redeemed (Eph 1:7), and we obtained an inheritance (Eph 1:11) by trusting in Him after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). These verses also prove that Election onto Salvation is Conditional.
Rom 9:15-16 is talking about the Election of the Cross. Everything leading up to and including the Cross was predetermined. Stubbornly evil people who were in the path of the Cross had their hearts hardened so that the Cross would happen. From the OT (the Pharoah) to the NT (the mob around Christ's trial) they had their hearts hardened for the Cross to happen.
Now we're in Post-Cross times. The Cross has happened. We are now regenerated with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The OT Saints were not regenerated. Pentecost had not happened. It is our responsibility to act accordingly. We are now predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. We must be willing agents of that. It is a massive Calvinist error to be inert, do nothing, and expect God to zap you with regeneration because you happen to win the election lottery.
Matt 1:21 correctly says that Jesus saves His people from their sins. For you to make your point the verse would have to say something like Jesus saves His elect... I don't see the word "elect" anywhere in those 2 passages.
Where do you see the word "elect" in any of those verses? Which Bible version are you using?
Conclusion: The Calvinist Belief System is bleeding profusely at its Jugular and is on critical life support. I await any Bible-based comments you could offer.
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This is a false statement~you skipped from 308 to 323 ~ a very large portion of my arguments, thus far... using the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, (Ephesians 4:14) by saying you are going for the jugular~well, let me inform you, you missed the Calvinist so`called jugular, as a matter of truth, you were not even close! All you did is hit your own jugular ~the unskillful should not be playing with knives!
So weak! It is not obvious~it is a biblical truth, that man, nor angels, add not one thing to the glory of God, thereby have a right to share in His infinite glory.
“In the beginning, God” (Gen. 1:1). There was a time, if “time” it could be called, when God, DWELT ALL ALONE. “In the beginning, God.” There was no heaven, where His glory is now particularly manifested. There was no earth to engage His attention. There were no angels to hymn His praises; no universe to be upheld by the word of His power. There was nothing, no one, but God; and that, not for a day, a year, or an age, but “from everlasting.” During a past eternity, GOD WAS ALONE: SELF-CONTAINED, SELF-SUFFICIENT, SELF-SATISFIED; IN NEED OF NOTHING.
Had a universe, had angels, had human beings been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them when He did, added nothing to God essentially. He changes not (Mal. 3:6), therefore His essential glory can be neither augmented nor diminished, and certainly not increased.
God was under no constraint, no obligation, no necessity to create. That He chose to do so was purely a sovereign act on His part, caused by nothing outside Himself, determined by nothing but His own mere good pleasure; for He “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11). That He did create was simply for His manifestative glory. Do some of our readers imagine that we have gone beyond what Scripture warrants? Then our appeal shall be to the Law and the Testimony: “Stand up and bless the Lord your God forever and ever: and blessed be Thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise” (Nehemiah 9:5). God is no gainer even from our worship. He was in no need of that external glory of His grace which arises from His redeemed, for He is glorious enough in Himself without that. What was it moved Him to predestinate His elect to the praise of the glory of His grace? It was, as Ephesians 1:5 tells us, according to the good pleasure of His will. Enough for now.
The sum of the scriptures teach: "Let all flesh keep silence before God" ~ (Habakkuk 2:20.) Meaning: Let every thing, therefore, that is at all deserving of praise, be recognized as proceeding from God.
Pitiful example! You are desparte in trying to make it seems as though you are answering my post. Yes, the world is full of his glory, not our! The world is full of man's wickedness, the only thing that should be attributed to man!
Take the knife out of the children hands they will hurt themselves! The more you talk, the more you do damaged to yourself!
In the world to come, God still will be ALL IN ALL, even Jesus Christ in his humanity as the Son of God will submit himself unto God!
And you talk about man sharing glory with God, that's blasphemy.
All three of these blessed scriptures and there are many more that could be added to this list~are speaking of conversions, not regeration of men dead in trespaases and sins, only the almighty power of God can perform such a miracle of grace on such people. Yet, we can save ourselves from errors, false prophets, etc., by heeding the word of God~plus, we can saved erring brothers, by converting them back into the way by using love and patience, etc. and hide a multitudes of sin that they would have committed if not brought back into the fold. But, even then, it is God that truly worketh to bring a sheep back that has left the fold for whatever reason.
Synergy, you just did not avoid scriptures you avoided several posts!
Coming from a person who conveniently skipped several posts! Of course, I'm not the only person knowing this, above all, you know why you did, you had no answers. Be as it may be, I'll will show you a more nobler and Christ's like way. I'll not skip one of your scriptures, and the reason why is, truth does not fear any scriptures, knowing scriptures are on the side of truth with those who have truth and love the truth and seek only the truth.
Then you do not understand the works of the law. The works of the law speaks on this wise: "This DO and live, sin, and die"! That's the gospel you men believe in. We teach that salvation from sin and condemnation, speak on this wise: "Salvation from sin and condemnation is not of him that runneth, or willeth, but of God that showeth mercy"~have you never read so much as this with understanding?
Yes, or no~do you teach that salvation from sin and condemnation is of him that willeth, and him that runneth unto God for forgiveness? You teach that man shares a part of his salvation by doing this, that, etc. That gospel falls under the curse of God according to Paul in Galatians one.
You saying this out of one side of your mouth and then come right back and say man MUST believe, repent, etc. before he is saved from his sins. proves just how blind you are by the gospel you hold to. I could say much more on the last two points, but I'll wait.
No, synergy, if one ONLY glories in the Lord, by attributing salvation only to his grace without works of the law ~ works by the flesh of man.
Synergy, no one are bold enough to just come out and deny such things, they do it through their teachings, especially so in rejecting unconditional salvation~the leaven is hidden in their teachings.
I'm coming back after a meeting to finish~RB
Let me tell you how you pray "according to what you believe" concerning man in his natural state, we have a perfect example of such prayers recorded in the word of God.
A prayer of a man who knows his unworthiness, even as a child of God will sound much like this from the lips of godly Jacob:
Your teachings on the doctrine of grace, if believed in, with all sincerity, supported with a godly, and humble life, will determine just how thankful one is ~ not the words from flow from one's lips. The prayers of a prideful Pharisee, stinks in the nostrils of the God of all grace. Said enough on this point.
You have a serious reading comprehension , spiritually speaking. Let us quote the verse so all can see exactly what Paul is teaching us.
We see the order Paul spoke these words are of utmost importance, and demands our attention in order to rightly divide the word of truth.
We have God's love first noted, that moved him to have an election of grace from the beginning, or before all things were created. So we have in order: Election and its consequences of regeneration and conversion.
It is election ~ God’s choice ~ that delivers us from Satan and the lies of false religion that bound Paul to give thanks to God, knowing God's love preserved them from being like those who lived under a strong delusion of the devil.The sanctification of the Spirit is that washing of regeneration that gives us new hearts.
Belief of the truth must follow regeneration and is brought forth by gospel preaching.
Truth still stands that No man is able to deliver his own soul from lies – only the Lord can do it (Is 44:18-20). Thereby we are bound to God who chose to save us from our own folly, and bound to give thanks for others who likewise are chosen of God.
Do you know truly how ignorance that statement sound? I think not. Election is conditional??? So, a man and a woman (the only ones that should qualified) decides to adopt a newborn, (adoption and election are closely connected in the scriptures) what conditions can such a infant meet. Besides, election in the scriptures is called the election of grace, and grace cannot includes works, or it ceases to be grace. Sir, you and your friends have fallen from grace, that is, from the doctrine of true grace. Romans 11:5,6; Galatians 5:4, etc.
Coming back~we shall look at some of these.
Synergy, it would be impossible not to talk about doctrine justification, since it is the central theme of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
All religions in Mystery Babylon preach on Justification, from the Pope to the unknown preacher in the backwoods of all counties. What does that prove as far as knowing the truth on this subject? Nothing, other than they all think they know the truth~I've listen to men like Jimmy Swaggart, who has worked to reinvent himself, and in his mind, he has succeeded; to Kenneth Copeland, poor guy, not sure where his next meal is coming from; to just about every main preachers in the last fifty years, plus, and found very few who have the slightest understanding on this subject. There are a few, but they are unknown, God's misfits, hated by the world, both religionist and non-religious.
That's exactly what all of those mentioned above "just talk about" ~ they know nothing of the truth of free justification through the obedience and faith of Jesus Christ. You truly skipped the most important starting point on Justification and went straight to the conclusion, so bear with me, for I want to post the truth only one time and be as thorough as I possible can be with the fewest words being used.
All seven verses you posting above, most all of them used justified in different senses, only one used in a legal sense, if one uses the KJV~Galatians 2:16, for your version perverts its God given teaching. Later on this point.
You truly need to go back to where Paul started, instead of using his conclusion of his teaching concerning justification.
Start here, and then read the conclusion in verse 28! Only then will one truly understand the truth concerning free justification through Jesus' life of faith and obedience as the means of God being Just and the justifier of sinners. The righteousness of God is without the law, meaning any law that said "this DO and live, sin and die" ~God's righteousness is witnessed by the law and the prophets; which reveals to us that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ, which faith caused him to live in perfect obedience to the law of God, as the surety for God's elect. God can freely justify by grace through the redemption provided by Christ. Those whom God freely justify are known by their faith, the system which God chose to reveal free justification to those for whom Christ lived and died for as their surety.
Now the conclusion is found in verse 28 of Romans three~
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Therefore we conclude.Truth lovers appreciate conclusions, for we come to resting places regarding doctrine. A therefore usually indicates a conclusion, but Paul by the Spirit expressly declared it. Paul proved already that a system of conditional justification, especially one based on the Jewish system of Moses’ law, cannot possibly be true or ever succeed (1:18 – 3:20). Paul defined the true doctrine based on God’s free grace and Christ’s work (3:21-26).
Paul assumed here and shortly that the Jews understood that boasting condemned any system, as he has just argued in 3:27 (4:2; Is 10:15; 42:8; 48:11; Jer 9:23-24). Paul’s conclusion is based on at least three general groups of evidence for grace by faith.
- Mankind is guilty and condemned, regardless of the law in any sense (1:18 – 3:20).
- Justification is based on God’s grace in Jesus Christ’s redemptive work (3:21-26).
- Boasting cannot be included at all, as Paul has and will argue (3:27; 4:2).
The faith here is our faith, as assumed in 3:22 and 3:26 and pursued from here on, the evidence of justification and the initial event bringing God’s declaration of righteousness.
The words by faith cannot mean a condition, instrument, or means for election in eternity … or a synergistic participation in Jesus Christ’s legal work on the cross and in heaven … or a decisional act of cooperation in one’s quickening and regeneration from death …… but rather the identifying evidence that lays claim to justification for our assurance.
Why did Paul not constantly contrast the works of the law to justification by grace, instead of justification by faith? Because the crucial issue with Jewish legalists was the identifying evidence and personal assurance of justification against their nationalistic confidence in their relation to Abraham, their confidence in the Law, etc. Why did Paul not teach here that faith without works is dead? Because it would have diluted his argument and confused his hearers susceptible to Jewish legalism, so it is taught elsewhere in this epistle and in other epistles (Rom 6-8,12-16; James 2:14-26; etc.). Though justification in several phases is entirely by grace irrespective of faith, yet justification is declared, identified, and proven to be upon men with faith, as Abraham illustrates in chapter four, confirmed by works (James 2:14-26; Ist Thess 1:2-4; etc.).
Without the deeds of the law.
There can be no combination of grace and works of Moses’ law, otherwise both are corrupted and perverted, for their very definitions are mutually exclusive (11:6). There can be no combination of grace and works, otherwise Christ’s works are made of none effect and the heretical compromiser falls from the truth of grace (Gal 5:1-4).
Later...RB
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Scriptures that set forth election unto salvation:
Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
2 Thess 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Election is the blessed reality that God the Father, before the foundation of the world, from the very beginning, chose a specific number of depraved sinners out of Adam's sinful lineage and obligated all of their salvation on their surety, His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 1:3-4
Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Nothing in the sinner, real or foreseen, nothing outside of God Himself, motivated or persuaded God's choice of sinners unto salvation. God justifies the ungodly, and all whom God elected unto salvation are and were, before being born again and conversion, ungodly and by nature children of wrath as other, deserving nothing but Gods wrath ! Eph 2:1-3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 5
Jn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
2 Thess 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Election is the blessed reality that God the Father, before the foundation of the world, from the very beginning, chose a specific number of depraved sinners out of Adam's sinful lineage and obligated all of their salvation on their surety, His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 1:3-4
Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Nothing in the sinner, real or foreseen, nothing outside of God Himself, motivated or persuaded God's choice of sinners unto salvation. God justifies the ungodly, and all whom God elected unto salvation are and were, before being born again and conversion, ungodly and by nature children of wrath as other, deserving nothing but Gods wrath ! Eph 2:1-3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 5
I just wanted to post these words again, so that they would stink into a person mind for them to seriously ponder. If one consider this and test these words by the scriptures then such scriptures as James 2:24 should be easy to grasp hold of.
Why would anyone go here to prove that salvation is conditional upon a person doing certain spiritual acts before that person is born of the Spirit of God is beyond me, yet glad they do, for it makes our work much easier to defend and expose their corruption at the same time. Let us look at this same verse in Galatians 3, where Paul defends the true gospel of the grace of God from Galatians 2:16-Galatians 5:4 in depth.
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Nine different places in the word of God~so, it must be very important.Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship.~and it is, as far as the very elect among Israel who worshipped God in spirit and in truth.
The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it. The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6).
This is precious and sweet, if we grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision. Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers. All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6).
For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).
What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).
Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification – faith is the human condition for righteousness.
Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.
We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
Please note: Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!
Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then you must also admit the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!
Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?
Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Heb 11:4-7).
God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!
You danced around the jugular topic without even telling what is Calvinism's jugular. Every religion has a jugular. Christianity's jugular is that Christ is God. Prove that wrong and Christianity dies. Your Calvinist presuppositions have blinded your mind to the extent that you have no sense or awareness whatsoever of what is spiritually vital. So I challenge you to tell me what is Calvinism's jugular or are you so lost in Calvinism's heresies that you can't see beyond your nose?
It's not obvious to those who are spiritually weak or blind. Looks like that's what Calvinism does to people.
False. The 3 Divine Persons of the Trinity have always had each other and as such none of them were ever alone.
You do realize that you're describing Allah who is not a Trinity. I always sensed a connection between Islam and Calvinism and now you've reawakened my interest in that fact.
I would rewrite what you wrote in view of the fact that our God is Trinitarian. God's Word and God's Spirit are Persons and all 3 Persons shared fellowship with each other perpetually and forever. Are you sure you're Trinitarian?
I already told you that "the source of God's Glory is obviously God". Why are you debating things that I already agree with you?
The Bible verses should never be referred to as pitiful examples. You should have more reverence for the Bible.
I never said our glory. The Bible verses clearly demonstrate that He shares his glory not that it is our glory. Can you understand that concept without resorting to your Zero Sum mindset?
I see that your Calvinist Zero Sum mindset is making you revolt against that fact that we will "shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt 13:43). I see that you won't even discuss any of the verses I mentioned. What form of spirit has enraptured you to the point that you refuse to discuss any Bible verse whatsoever with me?
1 Cor 15:28 is talking about Jesus and as such does not clash with what I promote. The subject here is God and if He shares His Glory with us. Are you able to focus on that topic or is it above your pay grade?
I think we agree here. So we can agree that we can assist God in saving others.
I'll get to your other posts as soon as I can....
In your house of cards I only need to knock off a base card and all your cards will come tumbling down. If Soli Deo Gloria is not Calvinism's Jugular then tell me what is and we can discuss it.
You're just too funny. You skipped over discussing Isaiah 6:3, Exodus 3:4, Matt 17:2, in my previous post. So you can start by discussing them now.
Hey, if you want to practice the works of the Law then by all means do so. We believe that Christ fulfilled the Law and in Christ we live.
Your promotion of works of the Law will not save you. The Law does not save. Christ saves. Do you believe that?
We must believe and repent to be saved. That is different than works of the Law. You can stick with your works of the Law. I'll go with believing and repenting, thank you very much.
The verse is very clear when it says “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” Therefore, there is no robbing of any glory if you glory in the Lord.
You need to back up your "unconditional salvation" statement with Biblical verses. Personal statements are not considered.
We agree here.
Let's take off the Calvinist glasses and read what 2 Th 2:13 actually says. It says God chose you to be saved through belief in the truth. Did you catch that? Through belief in the truth. Do I have to repeat that phrase again? Ok, let's repeat it again because you might still have your Calvinist glasses on that distorts what goes into your mind. Through belief in the truth.
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Do you see it now? Election onto salvation is a consequence of belief in the truth, not the distorted way you're reading the passage.
Why do you distort what I say? I said "Election onto Salvation is Conditional." Learn to read what I actually write before you go into wild tangents. As such your comments here do not address my point that 2 Th 2:13 clearly makes.
I highlighted above your interpretation of Rom 3:28. You make the same grammatical mistake here that you did with 2 Th 2:13.
Let's take off the Calvinist glasses and read what Rom 3:28 actually says. It says that a man is justified by faith. Did you catch that? By faith we are justified. Do I have to repeat the actual phrase again? Ok, let's repeat it again because you might still have your Calvinist glasses on that distorts what goes into your mind. By faith we are justified.
(Rom 3:28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
Do you see it now? Our justification is by faith and not in the distorted reverse way you're reading the passage.
I assume that here also you believe that faith is just a consequence of justification and not a synergistic act of man. In that case, you would be reading this verse incorrectly also. You see that it says his faith is counted for righteousness. It doesn't say that his faith is a consequence for righteousness that he was previously given by God. It counted, it had merit, it had value, it contributed for his righteousness. It wasn't just a by-product of his righteousness.
(Rom 4:5) But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rockson
Well-known member
Might be nice if we add some common everyday ways humanity uses the word through too. Might help our Calvinists friends here.
Examples:
I got my car through my brother who works in a garage. That means it came by way of his brother and not by a sister or cousin.
We sold the bike through advertising in the local paper. That means not by a national publication.
The police entered the building through the side door. That means not through the front door or down the chimney.
So now let's put down the verse,
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
So it's through belief in the truth and not through some mysterious ordaining.
civic
Well-known member
So much for their strawman argument
