An Important Point about Original Sin and our Fallen Nature

[praise_yeshua]

Opinion noted.

It is more than an opinion. If you accept this, and try to prove it wrong. You will have a difficult time doing so. Such things are foundational.

There are plenty of assumptions associated with believing Adam died "spiritually"....

First start trying to define what "spiritually" means..... We know He wasn't "born of the Spirit". No one can claim such a thing and provide any evidence to support such. It is nothing more than an assumption.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It is more than an opinion. If you accept this, and try to prove it wrong. You will have a difficult time doing so. Such things are foundational.

There are plenty of assumptions associated with believing Adam died "spiritually"....

First start trying to define what "spiritually" means..... We know He wasn't "born of the Spirit". No one can claim such a thing and provide any evidence to support such. It is nothing more than an assumption.

Just like pretty much everything else here. Believe what you want.

 

[TedT]

Just like pretty much everything else here. Believe what you want.

Or another way to say it:
Put your faith where you will...

 

[TedT]

Adam wasn't Eternal when he was created. He had to eat of the tree of life to maintain his life.

...or he was indeed eternal in nature but had to eat of the tree of life (faith in Christ) to have eternal life, not the eternal death of the unforgivable never believers in the outer darkness.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

...or he was indeed eternal in nature but had to eat of the tree of life (faith in Christ) to have eternal life, not the eternal death of the unforgivable never believers in the outer darkness.

BINGO!!!! God's own statement indicated that the "tree of life" dealt with PHYSICAL LIFE, not "Spiritual life" which Adam forfeited when he tossed God under the bus in favor of satan's leadership. (Gen 3:22)

 

[TomL]

All humans since Adam have a fallen nature.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

1. Given the above, God is under NO obligation to even OFFER salvation to anyone, let alone save us. If God lets us all go to hell for eternal punishment and suffer his wrath, that is justice. It's not hatred. It's justice.

2. Now, what if God shows mercy? Mercy is by definition compassion or forgiveness shown to someone for whom punishment or harm would normally be the just action.

3. If God shows mercy to some but not all, is God unjust? No, both the ones to whom he shows mercy and the ones to whom he shows no mercy are deserving of His wrath.

4. But that's unfair, you may argue. If God shows mercy to some, He must show it to all, right? Wrong. See point 1, above. Nobody deserves mercy. To call God unfair, unjust, or unloving is to deny the fact that we are all fallen and come under the above scripture reference that there is no one righteous, not even one.

All humans since Adam have a fallen nature.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

1. Given the above, God is under NO obligation to even OFFER salvation to anyone, let alone save us. If God lets us all go to hell for eternal punishment and suffer his wrath, that is justice. It's not hatred. It's justice.

.

Doesn't look like justice

“I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

…it is vain to debate about prescience, which it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)

 

[koberstein]

The opportunity is there made available by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If people choose to ignore that sacrifice, that does not make God impotent. Satan is already a defeated foe. The blood of Jesus took care of that.

The timer on the end of his evil activities was set when the Son of God walked out of the tomb (Matthew 28:7). Jesus defeated sin and death, and Satan was put on notice. Therefore, his time is short (see Revelation 12:12).

Well said...

 

[koberstein]

All sin is paid for unbeliever, and believer alike. God is just and will judge and reward all people accordingly. I do not believe that God will punish people in the sense that they will also die for their sins, though if a person sins all they want to, it can lead to death. God will judge, and reward accordingly. People will go either outside the kingdom, or may have the right to enter into the gate and partake of the tree of life.

Gosh, what drugs are you on?
Outside the kingdom is called Hell
If you don't accept Yeshua's atonement for your sin that is where you will reside forever.
If the unbeliever doesn't accept Yeshua and the atonement payment for their sin they will be your neighbor.

 

[TomL]

All sin is paid for unbeliever, and believer alike. God is just and will judge and reward all people accordingly. I do not believe that God will punish people in the sense that they will also die for their sins, though if a person sins all they want to, it can lead to death. God will judge, and reward accordingly. People will go either outside the kingdom, or may have the right to enter into the gate and partake of the tree of life.

Technically the bible nowhere states Jesus paid for your sins.

He made atonement so that those who believe on him may be forgiven.

 

[civic]

Doesn't look like justice

“I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have fallen by God’s will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

…it is vain to debate about prescience, which it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that he decreed that they take place, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)

No wonder Calvin called it a horrific / dreadful doctrine and it haunted/ tormented him. He was smart enough to see there was problems with it but refused to change. Pride/ ego got in the way.

 

[TomL]

No wonder Calvin called it a horrific / dreadful doctrine and it haunted/ tormented him. He was smart enough to see there was problems with it but refused to change. Pride/ ego got in the way.

It is horrible as any reflecting honest person can see

 

[MatthewG]

Technically the bible nowhere states Jesus paid for your sins.

He made atonement so that those who believe on him may be forgiven.

I believe there is so evidence here that may suggest other wise but you may disregard it if you feel the need to, I will understand.

”My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.

This is how you can recognize God’s Spirit. One spirit says, “I believe that Jesus is the Messiah who came to earth and became a man.” That Spirit is from God. Another spirit refuses to say this about Jesus. That spirit is not from God. This is the spirit of the enemy of Christ.

You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming, and now he is already in the world. My dear children, you belong to God, so you have already defeated these false prophets. That’s because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. And they belong to the world, so what they say is from the world too. And the world listens to what they say.

But we are from God. So the people who know God listen to us. But the people who are not from God don’t listen to us. This is how we know the Spirit that is true and the spirit that is false.

Dear friends, we should love each other, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has become God’s child. And so everyone who loves knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love to us: He sent his only Son into the world to give us life through him.

True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins. That is how much God loved us, dear friends! So we also must love each other.

No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us. If we love each other, God’s love has reached its goal—it is made perfect in us. We know that we live in God and God lives in us. We know this because he gave us his Spirit.

We have seen that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world, and this is what we tell people now. Anyone who says, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” is a person who lives in God, and God lives in that person. So we know the love that God has for us, and we trust that love. God is love.

Everyone who lives in love lives in God, and God lives in them. If God’s love is made perfect in us, we can be without fear on the day when God judges the world. We will be without fear, because in this world we are like Jesus.

Where God’s love is, there is no fear, because God’s perfect love takes away fear. It is his punishment that makes a person fear.

So his love is not made perfect in the one who has fear. We love because God first loved us. If we say we love God but hate any of our brothers or sisters in his family, we are liars. If we don’t love someone we have seen, how can we love God?

We have never even seen him. God gave us this command: If we love God, we must also love each other as brothers and sisters.“
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭21‬ ‭ERV‬‬

1 John 4:10 True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins. | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now

True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins.

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

Gosh, what drugs are you on?
Outside the kingdom is called Hell
If you don't accept Yeshua's atonement for your sin that is where you will reside forever.
If the unbeliever doesn't accept Yeshua and the atonement payment for their sin they will be your neighbor.

Is that really true? Would you say Jesus did not die for the sins of the world?

 

[koberstein]

Is that really true? Would you say Jesus did not die for the sins of the world?

Yeshua was born to die for sinners and for that reason greatly above and beyond all .mountains stands Calvary.

 

[TomL]

I believe there is so evidence here that may suggest other wise but you may disregard it if you feel the need to, I will understand.

”My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.

This is how you can recognize God’s Spirit. One spirit says, “I believe that Jesus is the Messiah who came to earth and became a man.” That Spirit is from God. Another spirit refuses to say this about Jesus. That spirit is not from God. This is the spirit of the enemy of Christ.

You have heard that the enemy of Christ is coming, and now he is already in the world. My dear children, you belong to God, so you have already defeated these false prophets. That’s because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. And they belong to the world, so what they say is from the world too. And the world listens to what they say.

But we are from God. So the people who know God listen to us. But the people who are not from God don’t listen to us. This is how we know the Spirit that is true and the spirit that is false.

Dear friends, we should love each other, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has become God’s child. And so everyone who loves knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love to us: He sent his only Son into the world to give us life through him.

True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins. That is how much God loved us, dear friends! So we also must love each other.

No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us. If we love each other, God’s love has reached its goal—it is made perfect in us. We know that we live in God and God lives in us. We know this because he gave us his Spirit.

We have seen that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world, and this is what we tell people now. Anyone who says, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” is a person who lives in God, and God lives in that person. So we know the love that God has for us, and we trust that love. God is love.

Everyone who lives in love lives in God, and God lives in them. If God’s love is made perfect in us, we can be without fear on the day when God judges the world. We will be without fear, because in this world we are like Jesus.

Where God’s love is, there is no fear, because God’s perfect love takes away fear. It is his punishment that makes a person fear.

So his love is not made perfect in the one who has fear. We love because God first loved us. If we say we love God but hate any of our brothers or sisters in his family, we are liars. If we don’t love someone we have seen, how can we love God?

We have never even seen him. God gave us this command: If we love God, we must also love each other as brothers and sisters.“
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭21‬ ‭ERV‬‬

1 John 4:10 True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins. | Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) | Download The Bible App Now

True love is God’s love for us, not our love for God. He sent his Son as the way to take away our sins.

bible.com

All it requires is you post a verse which states Christ paid for your sins

I have not seen one

 

[MatthewG]

All it requires is you post a verse which states Christ paid for your sins

I have not seen one

Okay. What’s your point if that is the case?

 

[civic]

Is that really true? Would you say Jesus did not die for the sins of the world?

He did but there is a condition. Only those who believe and receive Christ are the ones who have their sins covered and are forgiven. Those who do not believe remain condemned. John 3:16-18.

 

[TomL]

Okay. What’s your point if that is the case?

The bible teaches forgiveness, remission not payment

Romans 3:23–26 (KJV 1900) — 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Payment makes the atonement a commercial transaction while I believe atonement is a provisional measure

 

[TomL]

Is that really true? Would you say Jesus did not die for the sins of the world?

I would not deny Christ died for the sins of the world

He was making atonement for the sins of the world

 

[MatthewG]

The bible teaches forgiveness, remission not payment

Romans 3:23–26 (KJV 1900) — 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Payment makes the atonement a commercial transaction while I believe atonement is a provisional measure

1 John 2:2​

2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world, ?

I would not deny Christ died for the sins of the world

He was making atonement for the sins of the world

Is this how the world is reconciled back to God?

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

He did but there is a condition. Only those who believe and receive Christ are the ones who have their sins covered and are forgiven. Those who do not believe remain condemned. John 3:16-18.

There is only one sin, that I remember correct me if I am mistaken it is the one and only unforgiveable sin which is faithlessness, no change of heart, no newness of life, the sin of rejecting God by merit of decision (not that they can not turn around if they decided to) to actively seek out darkness, and not seek out God in faith. Continuing to be spiritual dead, and self minded rather than having the mind of Christ.