PSA in the early Christian church

[civic]

The argument of the equivalence is easily refuted in two ways

1. First, Jesus felt pain, bled and experience asphyxia and death as a man, not as God. So all references to God’s infinitude are out of scope.
2. Second, if Jesus is infinite and suffering the cross equals eternal torment, then a headache also equals eternal torment (Did Jesus deserve to experience a headache for the sins of men? If he didn’t, then the headache would have been enough to atone our sins)

If the Bible truly called us to love a God who sends Sikhs to hell, you should treasure my posts and throw the Bible to the trash can.
if you don’t do it it is because you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the Bible gives no grounds to think that Sikhs will roast in hell forever.

Comic books of Spider-Man or Superman would be far more moral and commendable than the Bible if the Bible really taught what you believe.

the unfortunate reality is people on forums don't treat people like they do in real life.

could you imagine these exchanges at work, a party, a neighborhood gathering, a soccer game where there are people of all different religious beliefs, agnostics and atheists.

so much for loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, letting no unwholesome word coming out of your mouth but only those that edify others who hear etc.......... I could come up with a list of well over 2 dozen NT commands on how we should treat others who disagree with us.

I try and do my best to treat people here the same way I do as if we were at a coffee shop discussing the same topic.

Some would be thrown out of the coffee shop by the owner if they were listening to their conversation.

And the fact is between you and me I know what you believe and vice versa- I know you read my posts in other threads where I defend the deity of Christ or the Trinity and where you defend your bahai beliefs. I don't personally feel the need to debate you one on one to see who "wins". What is that going to prove ?

The deal is God via His Holy Spirit will convict anyone about the truth and its up to the person to believe and respond to that conviction. I can't do that. God can through His word accomplish whatever He chooses. All I can do is sow seed ( Gods word ) its up to the heart of the person to respond and receive it into their own heart as the truth when they read it or hear it.

Plus there is a biblical principle I follow in real life and online. We as "Christians" are not to judge those outside of our "church body" the "world" but the erroring/sinning brother inside of our fellowship. God judges those outside. Not that I'm the biblical authority on doctrine but at our home groups and mens discipleship groups where we have pastors, elders and teachers I will speak my mind biblically or give the other POV on a topic and present a different angle or perspective on an issue from the bible. If I see here anyone I consider a Christian who believes in the Trinity/Deity of Christ make false statements or doctrines about God then I will 99% of the time if I'm reading the thread speak my mind on that topic. I do the same in real life as I do here when I read or hear something that does not sound right, a red flag so to speak goes off and a Scripture will come to mind and I quote it and bring it into the conversation. I do this in our weekly home groups where we have pastors, elders and in the mens discipleship groups where there are pastors/elders. And this works both ways as iron sharpens iron. This is just how I'm wired and I love "apologetics" discussions and defending core beliefs or the essentials in Christianity.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11;But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

the unfortunate reality is pople on forums don't treat people like they do in real life.

could you imagine these exchanges at work, a party, a neighborhood gathering, a soccer game where there are people of all different religious beliefs, agnostics and atheists.

so much for loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, letting no unwholesome word coming out of your mouth but only those that edify others who hear etc.......... I could come up with a list of well over 2 dozen NT commands on how we should treat others who disagree with us.

I try and do my best to treat people here the same way I do as if we were at a coffee shop discussing the same topic.

Some would be thrown out of the coffee shop by the owner if they were listening to their conversation.

A very mature, Christlike response right here.

J.

 

[civic]

A very mature, Christlike response right here.

J.

I expanded my answer for @Pancho Frijoles so he can get more insight into the way I think about things.

 

[synergy]

the unfortunate reality is pople on forums don't treat people like they do in real life.

could you imagine these exchanges at work, a party, a neighborhood gathering, a soccer game where there are people of all different religious beliefs, agnostics and atheists.

so much for loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, letting no unwholesome word coming out of your mouth but only those that edify others who hear etc.......... I could come up with a list of well over 2 dozen NT commands on how we should treat others who disagree with us.

I try and do my best to treat people here the same way I do as if we were at a coffee shop discussing the same topic.

Some would be thrown out of the coffee shop by the owner if they were listening to their conversation.

This forum is more akin to the Areopagus area of Athens which was a popular gathering debating place for philosophers, scholars, and officials of Athens. It was here that Paul first presented his views to the Gentiles en mass about the unknown God and the message of Jesus and His Resurrection. Debates were governed by agreed upon rules and people there were encouraged to voice their opinion without retribution. Likewise, this forum has great value as long as we discuss ideas only and stay away from the ad hominems.

 

[civic]

This forum is more akin to the Areopagus area of Athens which was a popular gathering debating place for philosophers, scholars, and officials of Athens. It was here that Paul first presented his views to the Gentiles en mass about the unknown God and the message of Jesus and His Resurrection. Debates were governed by agreed upon rules and people there were encouraged to voice their opinion without retribution. Likewise, this forum has great value as long as we discuss ideas only and stay away from the ad hominems.

agreed

 

[Johann]

I expanded my answer for @Pancho Frijoles so he can get more insight into the way I think about things.

This kind of humility, patience, and mutual respect is Christlike in nature.
as 1 John 2:6 says, “Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.”

It should not be the exception but the norm and standard of this forum,
in line with Philippians 2:5 - “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.”
And as Colossians 3:12–14 exhorts us:

“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience... And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.”

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I try and do my best to treat people here the same way I do as if we were at a coffee shop discussing the same topic.

God bless you, civic. I do appreciate your patience and respect to everyone and to me in particular.

Some would be thrown out of the coffee shop by the owner if they were listening to their conversation.

I agree… and there is Somebody greater than a coffee shop owner around here, reading our conversations… Furthermore, reading our minds.

And the fact is between you and me I know what you believe and vice versa- I know you read my posts in other threads where I defend the deity of Christ or the Trinity and where you defend your bahai beliefs. I don't personally feel the need to debate you one on one to see who "wins". What is that going to prove ?

You’re right, my friend.
Christ is who He is, regardless of whether we here on earth understand it or not… and regardless of winning or losing a debate. I suppose that someday we will discover that our pretended understanding of Christology was so primitive and naive compared to the magnificent reality of Christ nature, mission and love!

 

[ProDeo]

There is no such thing as justice or wrath between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Nice try but a major failure.

Theology begins with God not man and his doctrines.

Gods good name and character is on trial with the heresy known as PSA.

hope this helps !!!

Well, I am scratching my head over PSA also, but allow me to quote Scripture.

Isaiah 53 Brenton's Septuagint Translation

biblehub.com

Quoting from the Brenton's Septuagint Translation :

5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed.

I don't see wrath or revenge.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Petr 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

I don't see wrath or revenge.

Instead -

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

The keyword is reconciliation as mentioned on 2 other places -

Efez 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Where is the wrath or revenge? I see something very complex between God the Father and God the Son, God sacrificing a part of HIMSELF, because He loved His fallen creation after all, per John 3:16-17.

One step further -

Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb slain (Christ) was already decided before God created A&E, God already knew the outcome that free will come with an inevitable side effect, sin. And His solution for sin, God the Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Can you feel the love ?

 

[civic]

Well, I am scratching my head over PSA also, but allow me to quote Scripture.

Isaiah 53 Brenton's Septuagint Translation

biblehub.com

Quoting from the Brenton's Septuagint Translation :

5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed.

I don't see wrath or revenge.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Petr 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

I don't see wrath or revenge.

Instead -

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

The keyword is reconciliation as mentioned on 2 other places -

Efez 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Where is the wrath or revenge? I see something very complex between God the Father and God the Son, God sacrificing a part of HIMSELF, because He loved His fallen creation after all, per John 3:16-17.

One step further -

Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb slain (Christ) was already decided before God created A&E, God already knew the outcome that free will come with an inevitable side effect, sin. And His solution for sin, God the Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Can you feel the love ?

Amen

 

[ProDeo]

Amen

Isa 53: 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed.

Nevertheless.

 

[Dizerner]

you should treasure my posts and throw the Bible to the trash can.

That will never, ever happen friend.

And for the record there is NOTHING I said on this forum I would not say face to face or in a coffee shop...
—or ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Christian love is not avoiding confrontation and rebuke, that is not what Scripture says.

Regards.

 

[civic]

That will never, ever happen friend.

And for the record there is NOTHING I said on this forum I would not say face to face or in a coffee shop...
—or ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Christian love is not avoiding confrontation and rebuke, that is not what Scripture says.

Regards.

1 Corinthians 13:1-8
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4;Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5;It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6;Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7;It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8;Love never fails.

1 Peter 4:7-10
The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray. 8;Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9;Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10;Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers all transgressions.

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Colossians 3:12-14
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. / Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

James 2:13
For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Romans 14:10-12
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11;It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
12;So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

That will never, ever happen friend.

And for the record there is NOTHING I said on this forum I would not say face to face or in a coffee shop...
—or ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Christian love is not avoiding confrontation and rebuke, that is not what Scripture says.

Regards.

@Dizerner
That’s the problem here... amid all these different religions and worldviews... the truth gets blurred... and the need to confront unbelief directly is greater than ever.

And when you exercise correction... it is often perceived as an ad hominem attack... because ἔλεγχος (elenchos, reproof) is no longer welcome... and most today are ἄνθρωποι μισοῦντες ἐλεγμόν (men who hate reproof)... as Proverbs long ago foretold.

Those who attempt to νουθετεῖν (noutheteō – to admonish, warn; cf. Acts 20:31, 1 Cor. 4:14)... or ἐλέγχειν (elenchō – to reprove, convict; cf. John 16:8, Eph. 5:11)... are accused of being harsh or judgmental...

For correction today is met with ἀντιλέγω (antilegō – to speak against, oppose; cf. Titus 1:9)... rather than μετάνοια (metanoia – repentance, change of mind; cf. 2 Tim. 2:25)...

As Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3... “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.”

Reproof is not the offense... pride is... and to ἐλέγχειν in love is now misjudged as hate... even though it is a command, not a suggestion.



2 Timothy 4:2 – "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
Paul commands open rebuke and correction... especially as a regular and urgent duty of gospel preaching... even when it's unpopular.

Titus 1:13 – "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;"
A sharp rebuke is not cruelty... it is mercy aimed at restoring soundness in doctrine and faith... especially when deception is at work.

Titus 2:15 – "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
The authority to rebuke unbelief is not personal... it comes from the truth of the gospel itself... and must be exercised boldly.

2 Corinthians 10:4–5 – "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God..."
The apostolic mission includes demolishing false ideologies... confronting proud unbelief... and calling every thought into obedience to Christ.

Ephesians 5:11 – "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."
Fellowship with darkness is forbidden... instead, we are told to expose and reprove such works... which includes confronting the unbelieving world.

Keep strong in the faith and Messiah brother.

Johann.

 

[Kenny]

The truth never gets blurred. Truth is always truth.

Sanctify them [purify, consecrate, separate them for Yourself, make them holy] by the Truth; Your Word is Truth. John 17:17

Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Eph 4:15

Some people believe the lie.

Lying lips are extremely disgusting and hateful to the Lord, but they who deal faithfully are His delight. Prov 12:22

The remedy.

Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15

These are the things that you shall do: speak every man the truth with his neighbor; render the truth and pronounce the judgment or verdict that makes for peace in [the courts at] your gates. Zech 8:16

Guide me in Your truth and faithfulness and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; for You [You only and altogether] do I wait [expectantly] all the day long. Ps 25:5

But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future]. John 16:13

 

[civic]

The truth never gets blurred. Truth is always truth.

Sanctify them [purify, consecrate, separate them for Yourself, make them holy] by the Truth; Your Word is Truth. John 17:17

Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Eph 4:15

Some people believe the lie.

Lying lips are extremely disgusting and hateful to the Lord, but they who deal faithfully are His delight. Prov 12:22

The remedy.

Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15

These are the things that you shall do: speak every man the truth with his neighbor; render the truth and pronounce the judgment or verdict that makes for peace in [the courts at] your gates. Zech 8:16

Guide me in Your truth and faithfulness and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; for You [You only and altogether] do I wait [expectantly] all the day long. Ps 25:5

But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future]. John 16:13

Ah thanks I'm studying this morning for my mens discipleship group meeting at church next thursday morning and it will be on sanctification/holiness and the believers responsibility in that process. I'm running it by this mornings mens discipleship meeting at my house in a few minutes. The 4 of us also go to the larger group meeting on Thursday mornings.

 

[Johann]

Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15

Context--
Paul exhorts Timothy, amid false teachers (2:14–18), to be a diligent and unashamed servant of God, in contrast to those who “strive about words to no profit” and who “overthrow the faith of some.” The setting is pastoral instruction during growing doctrinal deviation.

Purpose--
To urge Timothy to be zealous (σπούδασον) and tested (δόκιμον) before God—accurately “cutting straight” (ὀρθοτομοῦντα) the Word of Truth in both teaching and interpretation, so that his ministry stands approved and pure amid rising error.

These are the things that you shall do: speak every man the truth with his neighbor; render the truth and pronounce the judgment or verdict that makes for peace in [the courts at] your gates. Zech 8:16

Context--
In Zechariah 8, the LORD promises restoration and blessing to post-exilic Judah, calling them to covenant faithfulness. This verse lists ethical commands as conditions for continued peace in the renewed community, contrasting their past disobedience (cf. Zech 7:9–14).

Purpose--
To command integrity and justice among the returned rem nant—truth in speech, and peaceful, righteous judgment in the community’s gates (i.e., legal forums)—as essential to sustaining God's favor and the shalom of the restored city.

But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future]. John 16:13

Context--
In Jesus’ farewell discourse (John 13–17), He prepares His disciples for His departure and the coming of the Holy Spirit. John 16 emphasizes that though sorrow will come with His leaving, the Spirit—sent by the Father—will continue the revelatory work of Christ.

Purpose--
To assure the disciples that the Spirit of Truth will come to guide (ὁδηγήσει) them into the fullness of divine truth, not originating His own words but faithfully transmitting what He hears from the Father and Son—including prophetic revelation of things to come.

The truth never gets blurred. Truth is always truth.

So-to answer your assertion.

Truth itself is unchanging (John 17:17), but men suppress it (Romans 1:18), distort it (2 Peter 3:16), and exchange it for lies (Romans 1:25).

Hence, while truth remains, its perception and proclamation can be blurred by human sin and deception.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Johann]

Isa 53: 5 But he was wounded on account of our sins, and was bruised because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and by his bruises we were healed.

Nevertheless.

@ProDeo
"bore. . .carried" These two VERBS are parallel.

bore ‒ BDB 669, KB 724, Qal PERFECT, used of bearing one's guilt, Gen. 4:13; Lev. 5:1,17; 7:18; Num. 5:31; 14:34; Ezek. 14:10; 44:12, but it is also used of someone or some animal bearing another's guilt, cf. Lev. 10:17; 16:22; Num. 14:33; Ezek. 4:4,5,6 and of the suffering Servant's redemptive ministry in Isa. 53:4
carried ‒ BDB 687, KB 741, Qal PERFECT; this is literally "bear a heavy load," it is used of the Servant in Isa. 53:4 and Isa. 53:11 (Qal IMPERFECT)
Notice the series of VERBS in Isa. 53:4-6 of what YHWH did to the Servant for humanity's benefit.

smitten by God, Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 645, KB 697, Hophal PARTICIPLE
afflicted (by God), Isa. 53:4 ‒ BDB 776, KB 853, Pual PARTICIPLE
pierced through for our transgressions, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE
crushed for our iniquities, Isa. 53:5 ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE
the chastening for our well being (no VERB) upon Him, Isa. 53:5
by His scourging we are healed, Isa. 53:5
This is the textual foundation for the doctrine of the vicarious, substitutionary atonement.

"Smitten of God" It was God's will that Jesus die (cf. Isa. 53:10; John 3:16; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). Jesus' trial and death were not accidents or mistakes, but the plan of God (cf. Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20).

53:5 "pierced. . .crushed" As "bore" and "carried" in Isa. 53:4 were parallel, so too, these VERBS.

pierced ‒ BDB 319, KB 320, Poal PARTICIPLE usually by a sword in battle, but not here. The same root means "polluted" for mankind's purification and forgiveness.
crushed ‒ BDB 193, KB 221, Pual PARTICIPLE; this VERB is used several times in Isaiah
Isa. 57:15 ‒ Niphal PARTICIPLE, "the heart of the contrite"
Isa. 3:15 ‒ Piel IMPERFECT, "crushing My people"
Isa. 19:10; 53:5 ‒ Pual PARTICIPLE, "to be crushed"
Isa. 53:10 ‒ Piel INFINITIVE CONSTRUCT, "to crush"
It denotes one who is humbled. In this context by YHWH Himself for the greater good of all mankind.

ISAIAH 53

Nevertheless--

J.

 

[Duane]

Everyone one on this forum is "wrong" except you.

J.

That's just plain rude

 

[Richard]

That's just plain rude

Ain't that the Truth

 

[Johann]

That's just plain rude

Not the way I see it, but since then I am under close scrutiny.

J.