Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[GodsGrace]

ImCo:
In the superficial worldly way of morality but not in a true moral way which is holiness.

Even atheists can be very moral persons...
I was speaking to this...
Of course for Christians moral behavior is different and will align more with God's commandments.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm so sick of people using the passage on kids to promote a self-righteous theology.

Christ said:

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me (Mk. 9:42 NKJ)"

1. They were old enough to BELIEVE on Christ, they were not freaking babies.
2. They were justified BY THEIR BELIEF IN CHRIST, not their own self-righteousness.


THERE IS NO ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE.

Romand 3:11 is sure worn out by CALVINISTS,,,,isn't it? Yes. I'm so sick of it.
Did you happen to also read the OT verses it's alluding to?
Maybe not...I'd say or you'd stop using this verse...
The only one you've got BTW.
Must make good ole' Abram feel badly...and Noah...both righteous men.
And, maybe you could find out about hyperbole?
It's a method used in our language ... and other languages too.

If a LITTLE ONE BELIEVES in Jesus....like any adult can...
then you'd be right.

But you don't want to accept the age of accountability...
SO YOU CONTINUE TO BE WRONG.

Show us 2 or 3 verses in the bible that state that we are RESPONSIBLE for Adam's sin...
thanks.

 

[TibiasDad]

I'd like to make two points here:
1. A person can be a very moral person...know right and wrong AND STILL BE LOST. Do we agree?

Yes!

2. The human conscience CANNOT BE TRUSTED UNLESS it is taught in the ways of God.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here because knowing the difference between right and wrong is not a question of the reliability of human consciousness.

What if I told you that most 10 year olds believe they have never sinned?

I would strongly disagree with you. To say that I haven’t sinned is to say that I have never done anything wrong.

Sin, is a term of wrong doing in relationship to God. An affront to God. A wrong is still a sin whether you are cognizant of God or not.

This is because they DON'T UNDERSTAND sin.

They understand right from wrong and good from bad. They understand kind vs meanness, helpful and unhelpful. The attachment of “God”, or lack thereof ,to their understanding is no mitigation to their awareness of being malevolent in their actions. They know they have lied, or hurt someone or taken something that wasn’t theirs to take. Stealing is stealing whether God is a part of the equation or not in their thinking.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Many do immoral acts and are not bothered by them.
Because their conscience has not been trained in the commandments of God.

No, it is because they are selfish and will do whatever they want to in order to make their lives better. After continually doing these things for a long time, their consciousness becomes seared and the feelings of guilt do not penetrate their souls any longer. Habitual liars get to the place that they don’t even realize they’re lying.


Doug

 

[Jim]

No, it is because they are selfish and will do whatever they want to in order to make their lives better. After continually doing these things for a long time, their consciousness becomes seared and the feelings of guilt do not penetrate their souls any longer. Habitual liars get to the place that they don’t even realize they’re lying.


Doug

It is not that they do not realize they are lying; rather, they think that lying is perfectly acceptable. There is morality, immorality and amorality.

The first two concepts—morality and immorality—are well understood in America: codes and boundaries of behavior are set by principles, doctrines, dictate, or convention. It’s the third one—amorality—that is largely misunderstood but crucial to identify and comprehend. Amorality is a state of affairs where there are no moral principles or rules to follow or betray. None.

This profound truth is laid out in a very interesting book by Alexandra York, LYING AS A WAY OF LIFE: Corruption and Collectivism Come of Age in America. FUTURENOW PRESS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes!

OK...we agree that a person could be moral and still be lost.
Also, the opposite, a little person could be doing something IMMORAL and still be saved.
Scripture coming up.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here because knowing the difference between right and wrong is not a question of the reliability of human consciousness.

Actually, yes I know for sure that I'm right here.
A good and proper conscience will always be aligned with the commandments of God.
A strong example: There are psychopaths that think nothing of harming another person or using that person for their own purposes.
This behavior falls within what we know as narcissism. However, it can get even worse. Use your imagination...I'm not printing the stuff that man does in following satan.

AND...with no effect on the conscience AT ALL.

So if you believe everyone has a conscience and it responds to the commandments of God...
surely, I'm not going to be the one to convince you otherwise.

In short: The conscience must be well-formed. The individual judgment cannot be left up to the individual - basically for the above reason.
Man is many times tempted, by sin, to prefer their own judgment instead of an authoritative judgment. Especially of God's.

I would strongly disagree with you. To say that I haven’t sinned is to say that I have never done anything wrong.

You disagree with me that 10 year olds (most) believe they've never sinned.
Instead this is how it is.
They know they've done something wrong....
but to them it's not sin.

Partly because children these days are not raised in a true Christian home where God is acknowledged and spoken of and made known to the child.

I teach children our faith. From the 4th to the 7th grade (am narrowing it down to 5th grade next year...I think).....
When I teach about what sin is, I ask them who has sinned...practically all of them say that have not...and some are not sure.

You can take this or leave it...but it's true.
A 6 year old can possibly know what sin is...
but most kids DO NOT until they've been TAUGHT what it is.

Sin, is a term of wrong doing in relationship to God. An affront to God. A wrong is still a sin whether you are cognizant of God or not.

Romans 5 is following.
Paul does not agree with you.

They understand right from wrong and good from bad. They understand kind vs meanness, helpful and unhelpful. The attachment of “God”, or lack thereof ,to their understanding is no mitigation to their awareness of being malevolent in their actions. They know they have lied, or hurt someone or taken something that wasn’t theirs to take. Stealing is stealing whether God is a part of the equation or not in their thinking.


Doug

Of course stealing is stealing....,but will God hold them responsible for that stealing?

Let's look at Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

1. Where there is no law...sin is not charged.
A child cannot know about the laws of God.

2. Adam sinned. Are we personally responsible for HIS sin...
or do we suffer from the effects of it?

If you believe we are personally responsible for his sin, please provide scripture.
I cannot find any.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it is because they are selfish and will do whatever they want to in order to make their lives better. After continually doing these things for a long time, their consciousness becomes seared and the feelings of guilt do not penetrate their souls any longer. Habitual liars get to the place that they don’t even realize they’re lying.


Doug

Doug,
If the above were true...children would get better as they get older...
not worse as you've stated.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug,
If the above were true...children would get better as they get older...
not worse as you've stated.

No, assuming no intervention, selfishness grows in its influence. Left unchecked, sin becomes stronger in its power over us.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Amorality is a state of affairs where there are no moral principles or rules to follow or betray. None.

But there are very few who are such; just try to do something against them and they’ll let you know that they recognize terms of right and wrong.

Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

No, assuming no intervention, selfishness grows in its influence. Left unchecked, sin becomes stronger in its power over us.


Doug

I hope you'll reply to my post 306 when you have more time.

You say assuming no intervention...
there is always intervention.....
parents
teachers
friends
partners
even strangers at times.

I do agree that left unchecked sin become stronger.
But for adults.
Children are still growing.

Will wait for your reply re Romans 5.

 

[TibiasDad]

OK...we agree that a person could be moral and still be lost.
Also, the opposite, a little person could be doing something IMMORAL and still be saved.
Scripture coming up.

Actually, yes I know for sure that I'm right here.
A good and proper conscience will always be aligned with the commandments of God.
A strong example: There are psychopaths that think nothing of harming another person or using that person for their own purposes.
This behavior falls within what we know as narcissism. However, it can get even worse. Use your imagination...I'm not printing the stuff that man does in following satan.

AND...with no effect on the conscience AT ALL.

So if you believe everyone has a conscience and it responds to the commandments of God...
surely, I'm not going to be the one to convince you otherwise.

In short: The conscience must be well-formed. The individual judgment cannot be left up to the individual - basically for the above reason.
Man is many times tempted, by sin, to prefer their own judgment instead of an authoritative judgment. Especially of God's.

You disagree with me that 10 year olds (most) believe they've never sinned.
Instead this is how it is.
They know they've done something wrong....
but to them it's not sin.

Partly because children these days are not raised in a true Christian home where God is acknowledged and spoken of and made known to the child.

I teach children our faith. From the 4th to the 7th grade (am narrowing it down to 5th grade next year...I think).....
When I teach about what sin is, I ask them who has sinned...practically all of them say that have not...and some are not sure.

You can take this or leave it...but it's true.
A 6 year old can possibly know what sin is...
but most kids DO NOT until they've been TAUGHT what it is.


Romans 5 is following.
Paul does not agree with you.

Of course stealing is stealing....,but will God hold them responsible for that stealing?

Let's look at Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

1. Where there is no law...sin is not charged.
A child cannot know about the laws of God.

2. Adam sinned. Are we personally responsible for HIS sin...
or do we suffer from the effects of it?

If you believe we are personally responsible for his sin, please provide scripture.
I cannot find any.

Sin is not held against one who is not aware that their actions are wrong; that’s the point of Rom 7- Paul coveted but was not held accountable until he learned from the law that “you shall not covet”! Only then did “sin revive and I died”.

I would say that 99.5% of people, by the age of 10, have learned the concept of you’re not supposed to steal what isn’t yours.

Doug

 

[Jim]

But there are very few who are such; just try to do something against them and they’ll let you know that they recognize terms of right and wrong.

Doud

So much of the world operates on lies and bribes and accepts that as the standard and acceptable way of life. Islam not only asserts that it is acceptable to lie to an infidel, Islam declares that it is actually a good thing.

 

[Presby02]

For those who don't orginal sin, what state is a child born in? In the flesh? In the Spirit? Or is there a third or fourth option?

 

[GodsGrace]

For those who don't orginal sin, what state is a child born in? In the flesh? In the Spirit? Or is there a third or fourth option?

What say you?
I find it incredible that we all are reading Romans and can come up with differing concepts as to what sin is and HOW it is committed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin is not held against one who is not aware that their actions are wrong; that’s the point of Rom 7- Paul coveted but was not held accountable until he learned from the law that “you shall not covet”! Only then did “sin revive and I died”.

I would say that 99.5% of people, by the age of 10, have learned the concept of you’re not supposed to steal what isn’t yours.

Doug

You didn't post Romans 7.....
In theology we really should post the actual verses....

Could you please post Romans 7 and explain how you understand it?

How could it conflict with Romans 5:12-19 which I had posted?

Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinne
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Paul states above that there is no personal account of sin where there is no law.
Again I ask: Can a child be aware of the Laws of God?
Is there scripture regarding this?


Romans 5:17-19
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

The above speaks of righteousness through one "man" Jesus.
Can a child be aware of these concepts?

The NT tells us we must believe the gospel.
Can a child know the gospel?

You already know my position on this having taught children for years.
My questions are to understand how you can come to the conclusion that a child can be responsible for sin...
SIN NOT wrong behavior.

Are you of the opinion that man is born with sin on his soul?

Please post actual scripture if possible.

 

[Presby02]

What say you?
I find it incredible that we all are reading Romans and can come up with differing concepts as to what sin is and HOW it is committed.

I say they are born in the flesh, born in sin, alienated from God from birth.

How about you? Born in the flesh or in the Spirit? Or something else.

 

[Jim]

I say they are born in the flesh, born in sin, alienated from God from birth.

How about you? Born in the flesh or in the Spirit? Or something else.

Where did your spirit come from? It came from God. All are born in the flesh of parents AND born in the spirit of God. That is why, having sinned one needs to be REborn in the spirit of God.

 

[civic]

I say they are born in the flesh, born in sin, alienated from God from birth.

How about you? Born in the flesh or in the Spirit? Or something else.

and deserving of hell, condemnation and eternal separation from God ?

 

[Presby02]

and deserving of hell, condemnation and eternal separation from God ?

Yup. Are there exceptions other than born again Christians?

 

[Presby02]

Where did your spirit come from? It came from God. All are born in the flesh of parents AND born in the spirit of God. That is why, having sinned one needs to be REborn in the spirit of God.

Nothing good comes from the flesh. Born in the Spirit is Spiritual not fleshly. So are you saved at birth, only to lose your salvation and regain it when you believe?