Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin

[civic]

Yup. Are there exceptions other than born again Christians?

so your position is all infants who die go to hell ?

God has no mercy on the unborn in the womb or newborn infants who die ?

 

[Presby02]

so your position is all infants who die go to hell ?

God has no mercy on the unborn in the womb or newborn infants who die ?

Nope. I did not say that. The Bible is silent on the issue. I have my own opinion but that's all it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin is not held against one who is not aware that their actions are wrong; that’s the point of Rom 7- Paul coveted but was not held accountable until he learned from the law that “you shall not covet”! Only then did “sin revive and I died”.

I would say that 99.5% of people, by the age of 10, have learned the concept of you’re not supposed to steal what isn’t yours.

Doug

You didn't post Romans 7.....
In theology we really should post the actual verses....

Could you please post Romans 7 and explain how you understand it?

How could it conflict with Romans 5:12-19 which I had posted?

Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinne
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Paul states above that there is no personal account of sin where there is no law.
Again I ask: Can a child be aware of the Laws of God?
Is there scripture regarding this?


Romans 5:17-19
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

The above speaks of righteousness through one "man" Jesus.
Can a child be aware of these concepts?

The NT tells us we must believe the gospel.
Can a child know the gospel?

You already know my position on this having taught children for years.
My questions are to understand how you can come to the conclusion that a child can be responsible for sin...
SIN NOT wrong behavior.

Are you of the opinion that man is born with sin on his soul?

Please post actual scripture if possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I say they are born in the flesh, born in sin, alienated from God from birth.

How about you? Born in the flesh or in the Spirit? Or something else.

Hi Presby02
I think my post 306 explains my position well.
It's biblically based.

I believe a child is born in the flesh.
He does not yet have the spirit and may never have God's spirit...time will tell.

A child is born with a tainted soul from Adam's sin.
Some call this the flesh,,,some call it the sin nature...same thing.

What I find important is the belief that a child is not IMPUTED with the sin of Adam.
He is not held responsible for Adam's sin.
I understand this from Romans 5....maybe verses 12 to 19...it's in the above post.

Do you believe a child is imputed with sin?
Or that he is just born stained with sin?

 

[civic]

Hi Presby02
I think my post 306 explains my position well.
It's biblically based.

I believe a child is born in the flesh.
He does not yet have the spirit and may never have God's spirit...time will tell.

A child is born with a tainted soul from Adam's sin.
Some call this the flesh,,,some call it the sin nature...same thing.

What I find important is the belief that a child is not IMPUTED with the sin of Adam.
He is not held responsible for Adam's sin.
I understand this from Romans 5....maybe verses 12 to 19...it's in the above post.

Do you believe a child is imputed with sin?
Or that he is just born stained with sin?

reformed theology teaches both imputed sin and righteousness.

 

[TibiasDad]

You didn't post Romans 7.....
In theology we really should post the actual verses....

Romans 7 is an example of the principle in Romans 5.

Could you please post Romans 7 and explain how you understand it?

How could it conflict with Romans 5:12-19 which I had posted?

It doesn’t.

Romans 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinne
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Paul states above that there is no personal account of sin where there is no law.

Correct; Rom 7 is Paul’s personal account of the principle of Rom 5.

Again I ask: Can a child be aware of the Laws of God?
Is there scripture regarding this?

I think Samuel is a good example of children being aware of the things of God. He was under the tutelage of Eli, and so I can only assume that he was aware of something as basic as “thou shall not steal”.

Romans 5:17-19
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

The above speaks of righteousness through one "man" Jesus.
Can a child be aware of these concepts?

Why do you doubt the cognitive abilities of children?

The NT tells us we must believe the gospel.
Can a child know the gospel?

I certainly did.

You already know my position on this having taught children for years.
My questions are to understand how you can come to the conclusion that a child can be responsible for sin...

If a child knows that stealing is wrong and yet he steals, he is responsible for his actions.

SIN NOT wrong behavior.

Sin, by definition is wrong behavior. Wrong behavior is, by definition, sinful.

Are you of the opinion that man is born with sin on his soul?

He is born with the tendency toward sin, born apart from relationship with God.


Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 7 is an example of the principle in Romans 5.


It doesn’t.

You've neglected to show how Romans 5 and 7 are aligned.

Correct; Rom 7 is Paul’s personal account of the principle of Rom 5.

Why? No explanation.
I'm not in your head Tibias.

I think Samuel is a good example of children being aware of the things of God. He was under the tutelage of Eli, and so I can only assume that he was aware of something as basic as “thou shall not steal”.

You really did have to go back very far to find an example?
Anyway,,,we're all different.
We're not all Samuel.

Why do you doubt the cognitive abilities of children?

Did I say that I doubt the cognitive abilities of children?
I'll repeat again:
For years I've taught children our faith...from the 4th to the 7th grade.
I have a feeling I may know more about children and their relationship to God than MAYBE you do...not sure.
And this is not what's under discussion...but you did bring the point up.

You can believe what I state or not....
but you shouldn't make personal statements about me that I DID NOT MAKE.

I certainly did.

Well Tibias...YOU were a lucky child.
Thinks are different nowadays.
Most children are NOT brought up in believing homes...
Most children are not familiar with God when they come to church to learn their faith.
Most children have no idea of the gospel message.
Most are IGNORANT of the message of salvation...

Does a just God condemn someone that does not know HOW TO BE SAVED?
What about the mentally ill?
Are they lost too?

If a child knows that stealing is wrong and yet he steals, he is responsible for his actions.

Sure. To his parents.
But you haven't provided any scripture that states a boy who steals is responsible to GOD.

If you cross a street with a RED LIGHT that cannot be seen UNLESS someone points it out to you.....
are you responsible for breaking a law?
Or do you become responsible when the light is moved to where it is visible?

This is the whole point of Romans 5...I've posted it twice already.

You've not replied to it, BTW.

Sin, by definition is wrong behavior. Wrong behavior is, by definition, sinful.

NO SIR.
SIN means MISSING THE MARK.
It DOES NOT mean wrong behavior.
It means acting in opposition to GOD.

A child cannot miss a mark he cannot see.
A child does not understand being in opposition to God.

I gave a lot of scripture...
Please post some scripture that states that man is responsible for Adam's sin PERSONALLY.

He is born with the tendency toward sin, born apart from relationship with God.


Doug

Well,,,the above is correct.
But being born with a tendency toward sin
is different
than being born WITH SIN.

Do you not see the difference?

 

[Dizerner]

hence we get, "it's not taught in the bible!"

Well, it's definitely not taught in the Bible. John 9:3 denies PCE sin for consequences in this life.

But I'm curious, how would you defend the morality of God wiping everyone's memory of their past choice to sin?

Wouldn't it be moral to let a person remember his own choices?

 

[TibiasDad]

Sure. To his parents.
But you haven't provided any scripture that states a boy who steals is responsible to GOD.

If the boy is culpable to his parents for the act of stealing (again meaning that he knows that stealing is taking something that belongs to someone else without consent), then why would he not be culpable before God who says “Thou shalt not steal!” (That by the way is in scripture; Deut 5:19, as well as other places.)

I gave a lot of scripture...
Please post some scripture that states that man is responsible for Adam's sin PERSONALLY.

I don’t hold that we are responsible for Adam’s sin. We are responsible for our own and nothing else.

NO SIR.
SIN means MISSING THE MARK.
It DOES NOT mean wrong behavior.
It means acting in opposition to GOD.

The word Hamartia, which we translate as “sin” in English, literally means “missing the mark”, by which we infer the mark to be obedience to the commands of God.

To disobey the commands of God is to commit wrong behavior. It is wrong, because God calls it wrong/unrighteous. No matter how you cut it, my brother, sin is always wrong behavior.

Well,,,the above is correct.
But being born with a tendency toward sin
is different
than being born WITH SIN.

We are not born with guilt, and therefore not subject to punishment. But we are born corrupted by the effects of Adam’s actions, when places us at odds with the perfection of God, and prone to naturally move in opposition to God’s will and desires.

We only become culpable before God when we knowingly and willingly disobey one of God’s laws. (Sins of ignorance are sins, but we are not accountable for them until these actions are brought to our attention and awareness.)

Roman’s 5 teaches us that where there is no law, there can be no sin. Rom 7 teaches us that Paul was “alive” spiritually before he was aware that he should not “covet”, even though he was being covetous, because he was ignorant of coveting being forbidden. But when he learned there was a law that said “do not covet”,thus forbidding covetous behavior, he was now accountable for his covetous actions, and he died spiritually in relation to God.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I have a feeling I may know more about children and their relationship to God than MAYBE you do...not sure.

I am a pastor on the cusp of retirement. My experience and knowledge of children is quite extensive.

Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

If the boy is culpable to his parents for the act of stealing (again meaning that he knows that stealing is taking something that belongs to someone else without consent), then why would he not be culpable before God who says “Thou shalt not steal!” (That by the way is in scripture; Deut 5:19, as well as other places.)

I don’t hold that we are responsible for Adam’s sin. We are responsible for our own and nothing else.

Agreed!
So it goes back to whether or not a child could sin.
All the scripture I've posted states what you just agreed it says....
we are responsible for our own sin.

So maybe the discussion should be WHAT IS SIN?
??

The word Hamartia, which we translate as “sin” in English, literally means “missing the mark”, by which we infer the mark to be obedience to the commands of God.

You're repeating what I stated.
So...agreed.

And how does a child MISS THE MARK,,,if he doesn't know what the mark is?

To disobey the commands of God is to commit wrong behavior. It is wrong, because God calls it wrong/unrighteous. No matter how you cut it, my brother, sin is always wrong behavior.

Sin is wrong behavior,,,if you KNOW it's wrong behavior.
IF you don't know it's wrong behavior....God will not hold you responsible.
(you just agreed to this up above).

Where there is no law...there is no sin.

We are not born with guilt, and therefore not subject to punishment.

Perfect.

But we are born corrupted by the effects of Adam’s actions,

Perfect.

when places us at odds with the perfection of God, and prone to naturally move in opposition to God’s will and desires.

Agreed,,,until we REPENT...which means to turn the other way.
I explained this to a 13 year old just last year and he finally understood about sin.

We only become culpable before God when we knowingly and willingly disobey one of God’s laws.

Agreed again.

(Sins of ignorance are sins, but we are not accountable for them until these actions are brought to our attention and awareness.)

Agreed.

Roman’s 5 teaches us that where there is no law, there can be no sin. Rom 7 teaches us that Paul was “alive” spiritually before he was aware that he should not “covet”, even though he was being covetous, because he was ignorant of coveting being forbidden. But when he learned there was a law that said “do not covet”,thus forbidding covetous behavior, he was now accountable for his covetous actions, and he died spiritually in relation to God.


Doug

Perfect!
Is every child alive spiritually?
No.

They are just NOT GUILTY.

I don't understand how we could agree on so much and come out with differing opinions....

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a pastor on the cusp of retirement. My experience and knowledge of children is quite extensive.

Doug

Well,,I DID say MAYBE!
We don't know each other on these forums and I don't like to assume.
I am a little surprised, to be honest.
Respectfully I do want to say that a pastor should know the situation with parents.
OR
Maybe it's the fact that you ARE a pastor and deal with parents that come to church and are properly
educating their children that you see children that PERHAPS DO know about the commands of God.

Maybe I'm speaking about most families who do not teach Christianity in the home.

Let me tell you this:
Yesterday I spoke to a little girl, 9 years old....
she told me she doesn't like learning about Jesus.
I asked her why.
She said because she likes rock.
I told her that she doesn't have to pick right now and she should continue learning
about Jesus.
She made a funny face and I let it go at that. (I hope I get her in my class - if I'm still doing this then, maybe it's time to stop).
BOTH HER PARENTS ARE ATHEISTS.
Do you think God is holding HER responsible for some wrong behavior?
I certainly hope not.

 

[Dizerner]

No one naturally likes to admit they are born sinful.

That's what a sinful nature does—prideful denies itself.

But we submit our preferences to God's Word, and Jesus clearly said "no one is good."

I have heard stories of very small children committing evils as horrible as any adult, and in fact I have seen very evil behavior myself.

This doesn't mean our sin nature is always perfectly manifest.

 

[TibiasDad]

Agreed!
So it goes back to whether or not a child could sin.
All the scripture I've posted states what you just agreed it says....
we are responsible for our own sin.

So maybe the discussion should be WHAT IS SIN?
??


You're repeating what I stated.
So...agreed.

And how does a child MISS THE MARK,,,if he doesn't know what the mark is?

Sin is wrong behavior,,,if you KNOW it's wrong behavior.
IF you don't know it's wrong behavior....God will not hold you responsible.
(you just agreed to this up above).

Where there is no law...there is no sin.

Perfect.

Perfect.

Agreed,,,until we REPENT...which means to turn the other way.
I explained this to a 13 year old just last year and he finally understood about sin.


Agreed again.

Agreed.

Perfect!
Is every child alive spiritually?
No.

They are just NOT GUILTY.

I don't understand how we could agree on so much and come out with differing opinions....

I would argue that Paul, in Rom 7, considered himself “alive” spiritually precisely because he could not be found guilty of breaking the law of which he was ignorant. For when he became consciously aware of the law “do not covet” he realized that he had indeed been coveting and therefore, died, realizing his guilt for being covetous.


Doug

 

[Presby02]

Hi Presby02
I think my post 306 explains my position well.
It's biblically based.

I believe a child is born in the flesh.
He does not yet have the spirit and may never have God's spirit...time will tell.

A child is born with a tainted soul from Adam's sin.
Some call this the flesh,,,some call it the sin nature...same thing.

What I find important is the belief that a child is not IMPUTED with the sin of Adam.
He is not held responsible for Adam's sin.
I understand this from Romans 5....maybe verses 12 to 19...it's in the above post.

Do you believe a child is imputed with sin?
Or that he is just born stained with sin?

I believe so. Adam broke the covenant in the garden. Hence, we all broke the covenant and are guilty.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would argue that Paul, in Rom 7, considered himself “alive” spiritually precisely because he could not be found guilty of breaking the law of which he was ignorant. For when he became consciously aware of the law “do not covet” he realized that he had indeed been coveting and therefore, died, realizing his guilt for being covetous.


Doug

OK Tigias,
I'll end with this:

John 9:40-41
40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe so. Adam broke the covenant in the garden. Hence, we all broke the covenant and are guilty.

Of course I agree that when Adam fell, all of mankind was affected.
But I'm unable to find any scripture that supports the idea that one man can be responsible for another man's sin.
Can you find such scripture?

God made the Edenic Covenant with Adam.
Adam broke the covenant....it was bilateral and required that Adam obey.

But The Adamic Covenant was for all men and states that God gave to mankind a way to still save himelf.
This covenant had no conditions and was based solely on what God was going to do.

God cursed those involved:
Genesis 3:16-20
PAINFUL BIRTH
SPOUSAL CONFLICT
LAND CURSED
MAN WILL EAT BY THE SWEAT OF HIS BROW
SURVIVAL WILL BE DIFFICULT
DEATH IS INTRODUCED
From dust you come. to dust you will return.

Genesis 3:15 There will be enmity between HER SEED and SATAN'S SEED...
IOW between Jesus and satan.

But God gave to man a way out:
Genesis 3:21 The first sacrifice...an animal skin for a COVERING...Just as Jesus is our covering. (the shedding of blood).

I don't read anywhere that children can know about Covenants or even what sin is.

 

[Presby02]

Of course I agree that when Adam fell, all of mankind was affected.
But I'm unable to find any scripture that supports the idea that one man can be responsible for another man's sin.
Can you find such scripture?

God made the Edenic Covenant with Adam.
Adam broke the covenant....it was bilateral and required that Adam obey.

But The Adamic Covenant was for all men and states that God gave to mankind a way to still save himelf.
This covenant had no conditions and was based solely on what God was going to do.

God cursed those involved:
Genesis 3:16-20
PAINFUL BIRTH
SPOUSAL CONFLICT
LAND CURSED
MAN WILL EAT BY THE SWEAT OF HIS BROW
SURVIVAL WILL BE DIFFICULT
DEATH IS INTRODUCED
From dust you come. to dust you will return.

Genesis 3:15 There will be enmity between HER SEED and SATAN'S SEED...
IOW between Jesus and satan.

But God gave to man a way out:
Genesis 3:21 The first sacrifice...an animal skin for a COVERING...Just as Jesus is our covering. (the shedding of blood).

I don't read anywhere that children can know about Covenants or even what sin is.

Breaking the covenant was a sin. Being "in Adam",we also broke the covenant and suffer the consequences.

 

[GodsGrace]

Breaking the covenant was a sin. Being "in Adam",we also broke the covenant and suffer the consequences.

I understand that you believe this.
But what scripture do you use?
I cannot find anywhere in the OT or the NT that states that one person is responsible for another person's sin.
Do you know of such a passage?

I am stained with Adam's sin....All of humanity has suffered from its effect.
but I was not in the Garden to commit it. How can I be responsible for another man's sin?
Could you post some scripture?

 

[Presby02]

I understand that you believe this.
But what scripture do you use?
I cannot find anywhere in the OT or the NT that states that one person is responsible for another person's sin.
Do you know of such a passage?

I am stained with Adam's sin....All of humanity has suffered from its effect.
but I was not in the Garden to commit it. How can I be responsible for another man's sin?
Could you post some scripture?

Why? You were not there and did nothing wrong right?

Are you okay with the imputed righteousness of Christ?