civic
Active Member
it started as an external- without that became within.
Children are innocent, not guilty of any sin
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
It must be or GOD's love for the innocent is bogus...BUT do not think I endorse Augustinian original sin as coming from Adam as most folk do.
The only way sin accrues to a person is by their personal free will decision to rebel against GOD or one of HIS COMMANDS.
@TedT, You indicated being sad at my statement in reply #359. But the really sad part is that you and so many other terribly confused Christians think that God would impart to the newborn child a spirit already dead. That would be bad enough, but then there are those such as the Calvinists who take that one step further and claim that not only did God give the newborn child a spirit already dead, God then provided absolutely no way for the child, as he grew, to have any access to anything that could change the condition of his spirit. That characterizes God as being malicious and unloving to his greatest creation.
All of that would seem to come from a belief that physical death is due to sin. That is wrong. Physical death is an integral feature of this physical universe. We know that from Genesis 3:22.
His defilement "started from without"? Then Adam was right to blame God for his defilement. Isn't that Calvinism?
civic
Active Member
nope he was tempted to sin from without just like Jesus was tempted from without by the same devil.
Who then tempted the devil? God tempts no one, right? So he must have been self tempted when he heard the gospel and chose by faith to believe a rebuke of the truth. And if him, then why not someone else...or even everyone who fell into sin, all the sheep and all the demons?
Adam was tempted by Eve.
I disagree with your religious philosophy that "defilement starts from without", based on what the Jesus of the Bible teaches.
Mark 7: 14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, "Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand":
15 There is "nothing" from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, "let him hear".
"21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man".
This means the words of a serpent cannot defile Eve. Eve cannot defile Adam. The naked neighbors wife cannot defile you Civic. The Lust to look on her, which comes from within you, defiles you. The devil could not defile Jesus. Only the free will choice from within Jesus could defile Him. It wasn't the fruit that Adam ate that defiled him. It was his free will choice from within to reject God instruction.
Jam. 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, "when he is drawn away" "of his own lust", and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Adam was a perfect mortal human being with free will, created in the image of God who also has free will. Where there is no law, there is no sin. When God gave Adam a Law, the choice between good and evil became manifest. "Do vs. Don't do" along with the perfect capacity to choose one over the other. God placed a tree in the garden whose fruit was forbidden to eat to test Adam, not tempt him. He was temped when he turned away from God and walked in his own thoughts.
I agree with your understanding concerning children. At some point they become accountable for their own choices. Prior to that, they are sinless.
It's a great topic, and shows the contrast between the Faith of the first Adam, and the faith of the 2nd Adam.
Yes, a perfect question. In God's Kingdom, where no evil exists, who tempted Lucifer? Where did the evil even come from in God's Perfect Kingdom?
I think the answer dwells in "Free Will" that exists in God, and the beings God created, and the understanding that Free Will is part of the perfection of God. Even God Himself places limits on His Own Free will, for the benefit of other lives in His Kingdom. He "Chooses" to be long suffering and compassionate. No one "made Him" that way. Are we not instructed to place limitation on our own free will too? I don't think there can be any question about that.
There can be no free will without choice, and the capacity to make a choice, in my view.
@Studyman @Jim @civic @Ted @Presby02
So, why did the devil (and his angels) who were created a little above man sinned? And why did man sinned, after all, God created man upright and gave him one simple commandment, placed him in a perfect world with all he needed to continue in the state in which the LORD God created him.
Lastly, why did Christ not sinned? After all, he was placed in a wicked world with so many temptations to cause him to sin, yet, he never once came close to sinning.
Btw, infants die and even God commanded Israel to destroy all people when in the days of Joshua, Samuel, etc. So, God would be unrighteous if the infants were free from condemnation to have Israel of old to destroyed them. Do you need proof from the scriptures? I'm sure it would not change your minds toward the truth if given. So, at the moment I forbear from doing so, but there are several that I could provide showing that unless they were chosen of God, and Christ paid for their sins, all are under condemnation and will suffer the same from God in due time.
I'll keep reading this thread and see this if the blind hog finds the acorn.
I'm reading and listening to you folks, and so far, no one has even gotten close the truth, which is to be expected.
So, why did the devil (and his angels) who were created a little above man sinned? And why did man sinned, after all, God created man upright and gave him one simple commandment, placed him in a perfect world with all he needed to continue in the state in which the LORD God created him.
Lastly, why did Christ not sinned? After all, he was placed in a wicked world with so many temptations to cause him to sin, yet, he never once came close to sinning.
Btw, infants die and even God commanded Israel to destroy all people when in the days of Joshua, Samuel, etc. So, God would be unrighteous if the infants were free from condemnation to have Israel of old to destroyed them. Do you need proof from the scriptures? I'm sure it would not change your minds toward the truth if given. So, at the moment I forbear from doing so, but there are several that I could provide showing that unless they were chosen of God, and Christ paid for their sins, all are under condemnation and will suffer the same from God in due time.
I'll keep reading this thread and see this if the blind hog finds the acorn.
If the infants were free from condemnation, when they died or were killed, they would enter the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven.
Once again you are assigning sin as the cause of mankind being subject to physical death. That is simply not true. Physical death is an integral feature of this physical universe as created.
The bible story of GOD's interaction with mankind ENDS with the wedding of GOD to HIS creatures which is the base of my faith that this implies that this wedding is the purpose, the reason for, our creation. And no true marriage based upon love can exist if the Bride is forced to marry her husband but only if she freely and willingly chooses to wed him from an uncoerced love.
ImCo:
All FREE means is uncoerced:
IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, forcing them to choose anything, they had a free will.
When we were created with a free will, our decisions free from coercion upon any choice we might make, then our free will is innate in us as well as in HIM...even before we were faced with a choice.
When GOD created the heavenly host, did HE demand faith and obedience the moment our eyes opened to our situation? I really don't think so. If Michael can be taken to symbolize the perfect spirit dedicated to holiness by his free will, and if Satan can be seen to be the most imperfect spirit against holiness by his free will, then we can also easily accept that the long time of our childhood in which we learn about life and our own desires is the way GOD also brought HIS new creation, Michael and Satan, to the choice to choose by faith, not proof, to accept HIM as their GOD or to repudiate HIS claims to be our GOD as the lies of a false god.
This is also the perfect setting for HIM to proclaim HIS divinity, HIS gospel of election and salvation from all sin found only in HIS Son for all who would put their faith without proof in HIM to become HIS chosen, and for those who repudiated HIS divinity rejecting the gospel found in the Son, to become liable to come into HIS wrath, eternal damnation.
While I know that Col 1:23 ...if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. can be interpreted in other ways, I believe that it depicts the heavenly proclamation given to every spirit in heaven for them to express their first free will decision about faith or rejection of HIM.
I also believe that the response to this proclamation separated all of creation into three groups: the holy elect, the eternally sinful reprobate and the sinful elect. The fall of some of the elect came about because some only accepted HIM so they could be free from the dangers of hell but were planning to then go their own way no matter what HE wanted from them, shrug.
@Studyman @Jim @civic @TedT @Presby02
So, some will say, how about Jesus Christ? He proved to be the Son of God (thereby, equal with God) by the spirit of holiness when tempted!
So wrong ~ the answer to this question lies in the truth that God alone is immutable and cannot be tempted with evil. All others can, and they do not have the attribute of immutability, no man, no angels.
So, some will say, how about Jesus Christ? He proved to be the Son of God (thereby, equal with God) by the spirit of holiness when tempted!
