civic
Active Member
What Tri-Unity, it should bd called Dis-Unity with PSA adherents
My full defense of PSA
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
atpollard
Active Member
I don’t like a lot of things.
If it were up to a vote, I would select Annihilation over eternal damnation.
However, it is a KINGDOM rather than a democracy, so what I like or dislike is not the issue.
The issue is the curse that comes from adding or subtracting from the word of God.
The issue is choosing to believe what God SAYS rather than what we think God “really meant to say”.
The issue is accepting the TRUTH because God has declared it to be the truth.
The inability of the FATHER to forgive without first transferring stored WRATH is taught nowhere in scripture, is contradicted by scripture and creates a “god” that holds his creatures to a higher standard than he is capable of himself (an illogical contradiction).
So, what I REALLY don’t like is false teachings that claim to be “biblical” but are not.
civic
Active Member
Amen
Selah
Active Member
Here are some of my thoughts on this subject of PSA. We need to differentiate between sin and sins; we need to keep them in context because PSA, I believe, refers to SIN (singular).
The two verses below refer to the sins we all commit every day:
1 Corinthians 15:3 (NKJV) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1 John 1:7-10 (NKJV) 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
… but in contrast, note what Romans 6:6 says. (Romans 6:6 = PSA)
Romans 6:6 (NKJV) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him,] that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
~~~~~~~
Consider. Why did Jesus come? To destroy the devil (Sin).
Hebrews 2:14-15 (NKJV) 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The two verses below refer to the sins we all commit every day:
1 Corinthians 15:3 (NKJV) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1 John 1:7-10 (NKJV) 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
… but in contrast, note what Romans 6:6 says. (Romans 6:6 = PSA)
Romans 6:6 (NKJV) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him,] that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
~~~~~~~
Consider. Why did Jesus come? To destroy the devil (Sin).
Hebrews 2:14-15 (NKJV) 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Grace is for free or then it is not grace.
Is there anything like a free lunch? Yes, there is.
Mercy is a free lunch calling from heaven. Free, like manna.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Hi Dizerner
A word about pride.
What strikes more our pride is recognizing the free lunch falling from the heaven of mercy. The manna brought by Christ, that is not the result of seeding and harvesting our own wheat, but in collecting what falls to earth as an undeserved gift.
God’s forgiveness is for free. No payment needed or wanted.
PSA is rooted in superstition… it stems from confounding God with pagan mythological beings. In confusing symbols with meanings. In choosing wrath as the engine of religion, and hell (not Christ) as the rock of thoughts and actions.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
to the reciever, yes it is free
But to the giver, It cost an enormous amount
Yes.
this is a part of a post I made a few days ago. I think it paints a picture of a loving merciful God
Jesus paid it all. He suffered the death of the cross. I sat in a bible study this morning on psalms. And the teacher mentioned Ps 22. And painted a picture of the savior. Who not only suffered the death of a cross (the worse form of execution created by Man) but suffered the pain of holding our sin on his body, which Caused the father and spirit to forsake. or turn their back on Jesus
He in effect told us many years earlier what he would suffer and what would happen so we can know when it does.
God is telling us stop working, stop trying so hard to make yourself right with me because you can’t make yourself right with God. No matter what you do. He says come all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.
Yes, He says again, come to him and he will give you rest. Because he did all the work for you.
He is not only the author of our faith he is the finisher of our faith (his inspired words not. Mine) but he is the author and finisher of our salvation.
civic
Active Member
Neither of which is found in Scripture in red above.
Jesus never turned His back on sin and He is fully God. He came into this world born from a sinner in His mothers womb. Lived among sinners His entire life healing and forgiving them. His disciples were sinners and He was called a friend of sinners.
God turning His back on Jesus because of sin in nothing more than an urban legend spawned by man. From the beginning God has pursued sinners not turning His back on them beginning with adam.even in the garden when He walked to find them and talk with them.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Actually it is brother
the word forsake comes from the greek word - enkatelipes - it means to forsake, to abandon, to desert, to leave behind.
Ps 22 is a prophecy of this time. God saw in the future what would happen. Thats what prophesy does. it looks forward. and says this will happen.
actually, it was because of what he was going to do that he could pass over sin
Yep and?
Its in the text man.
My God My God why have you forsaken, abandoned, deserted me
its what Jesus feared most.. Because nothign man did to him caused him to cry out. in fact. he said forgive them lord they know not what they do. The HS helped hin in this time of need. and kept him so he could bear the pain.
until the 9th hour.
and he covered there sin.
someone had to pay.
thats justice.. Gods justice demands a penalty. Gods love can not over rule that penalty. But it can and did pay the price of that penalty so we could be set free.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
@civic
I read this many years ago. it put what happened to Jesus in perspective. It also brings me to tears every time I read it. because it shows me what I did to cause this to happen. He did it for me (and you and everyone else)
I encourage everyone to read it. I try to read it every year at Easter.. to bring to remembrance
Ps 22, the payment of sin
My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my gowning (ps 22:1)
Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is God; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again and again from the psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for gowning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of Devine judgment
You must realize just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet Jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a Greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.
In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped him, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these trials, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.
Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherent hysterias, "like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, they rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cauterize the wound. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.
As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-
Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happened that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greatest agony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)
Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)
I read this many years ago. it put what happened to Jesus in perspective. It also brings me to tears every time I read it. because it shows me what I did to cause this to happen. He did it for me (and you and everyone else)
I encourage everyone to read it. I try to read it every year at Easter.. to bring to remembrance
Ps 22, the payment of sin
My God, My God why has thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my gowning (ps 22:1)
Jesus Christ uttered these words on the cross. Christ is God; He is also man. He quoted this scripture from his humanity addressing God the father. Christ knew perfectly well why the Father was forsaking him. This was the purpose for which Jesus had been born into the world. The Father was forsaking the humanity of Christ as part of Judging him for the sins of mankind. The sins of mankind were being imputed to Him, and he was taking the punishment due every human being who would ever live. So horrible was this judgment to His sinless humanity that he expressed his agony by repeating again and again from the psalm of David.. The Hebrew word for gowning meant our Lord was screaming in the pain of Devine judgment
You must realize just why Jesus Christ was screaming, and you must have some picture of what happened to our Lord prior to that time. Jesus had just endured 6 trials. During this time, men had lied about him (no one enjoys being maligned) and yet Jesus kept quiet. He did not answer or fight back. When the court finished taking testimony, they could not draw an indictment because the false witnesses did not agree. Men began to step up and have a little fun at his expense. They took turns slugging, cursing and spitting on him. Jesus Christ was hit dozens and dozens of times. as the bible says, "he was buffeted" which is simply a Greek word for "slugged" (matt 26: 27, mark 14: 65) Is 52" 14 tells us that he was so badly beaten that the features of his face were completely destroyed, and yet he stood up and took it all and lived.
In between all the punching, other men came up and said," so you are a prophet huh? then prophesy who hit you!" Boom! they slapped him, they hit him (matt 26: 28) At one point during these trials, they stripped him to the waist, His hands tied above his head, and then he was scourged (literally "skinned with a whip"). The romans used a "mastix" a very brutal type of whip, to which they attached sharp bits of bone, metal and splinters, anything that would cut! Then the strongest man in the battalion would beat the victim.
Usually by this time any member of the human race would have been reduced to screaming incoherent hysterias, "like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, so he did not open his mouth" (Is 53 7b cf acts 8: 32) He never cried out to anyone, he did not raise his voice in to scream in pain. Then after the beating was over, as was Roman custom, they rubbed salt into what was left of the raw back to cauterize the wound. They mocked him, they scourged him, they took him to the cross.
As He hung on the cross, it was excruciatingly painful. His bones pulled apart from the weight of his body, slowly, miserably. the torture was unbelievable! Yet not once did he cry out-
Not until midday, when the sun was overhead. Suddenly the hill was blotted out in darkness. Then, in that darkness, something happened that made Jesus scream. All of the punching, slapping, lying, maligning torture and pain had not caused him to cry out, yet now, something so terrible made him scream. In a moment of time, your sin, my sin and the past present and future sins of the whole world were poured out on him. It was then that in his greatest agony he screamed. God the father turned his back on him. Why, Because thou art holy (ps 22:3)
Holiness is a combination of righteousness and justice. In absolute righteousness God the father directed his perfect justice against Christ imputing all sin to him and judging him as the substitute for mankind. In that moment of time, "he who knew no sin was made sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him (2 cor 2: 51)
civic
Active Member
Psalm 22
The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.
What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.
It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).
Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother’s womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.
1-In Luke 23:46, Jesus' last words were," Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit."
2- Within Psalm 22, there are numerous details regarding Jesus' crucifixion. For example, Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him. Further, Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help.
3- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus' trust and relationship with the Father when he states, "Into your hands, I commit MY Spirit."
4- Psalm 22:1 was Jesus’ cry in response to his enemies' surrounding him like David, not about the Father turning away from him.
5- Psalm 22 and Jesus last words are a declaration, a proclamation that He is the promised Messiah described in great detail in this Psalm.
The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.
Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
Though often taught from the pulpit and widely accepted within Christianity, there is a common misnomer that God cannot look upon sin.
This misnomer or idea is rooted in a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13, which states, "Your eyes are too pure to look upon evil." To expand upon the meaning of this verse, God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency. However, this verse does not state that God cannot look at sin or that He cannot allow sin in His presence. God did not turn His back on Adam when he sinned--God sought him out. God did not turn His back on David when he sinned. Jesus sought out Peter after he denied Him 3 times. Judas whom Jesus said one of you is the devil was on of His 12 disciples. In the book of Job, God allowed satan in His presence for a specific purpose. Satan wanted to make a deal with God over His servant, Job. God restricted Satan, telling him that he "can do anything but touch Job" and not to "lay a hand or finger on him." In the wilderness, Jesus allowed the presence of satan (face to face).
Jesus did not turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him," why are you persecuting Me?" If God did not turn His back on sinners, then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. The Father turning His back on the Son (at the cross) is not found in Scripture. Jesus ate with sinners, lived among sinners, loves sinners and He suffered and died for sinners.
Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.
Exodus 34:6
Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;
Isaiah 48:9
For the sake of My name I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.
Psalm 78:38
And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.
Psalm 85:1-3
You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)
2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)
6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)
8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
No it does not help.
I do not know why you fight this so much
Jesus did not just quote ps 22. Psalm 22 was a prophecy of what Jesus would endure, not only did it prophecy about him crying out. but it prophesied what the people would do to him and his clothes..
in any justice system, a penalty or wage is handed out for a crime. Lets use murder as an example
If the judge hands out a penalty of death to a murderer. well that penalty must be carried out.
No some one can die in that persons place.. This is called the price of redemption. if the person who is innocent of murder himself. suffered that fate. the charge against the actual person who committed the crime is discharged, they are said to be justified. as the court is satisfied in the payment.
You have to explain then how Jesus paid for the sin debt of all mankind without suffering the spiritual death in our place.
I can not go to a non believer, or a baby Christian and try to explain to them Jesus really did not suffer for their sin.. that he did not take the wage you owe God and pay that debt in your place, because I would give them absolutely no hope. especially hope that a God who is their high priest has suffered all so he can relate. or that God truly forgives them of their sins. and paid their debt in full. Leading them to believe they need to work off their own sin. leading to legalistic belief.
Eleazar
Active Member
Many Christians do not hold to PSA
Criticisms of Penal Substitutionary Atonement
A division has grown in recent years between traditional Reformed theologians and some postmodern evangelical scholars. The former consider penal substitutionary atonement (PSA) to be the chief and controlling theory for the atonement, while admitting some validity to other theories. The latter are united in their rejection of penal substitution, whatever other theory they may favor. These opponents argue that PSA misuses Scripture, reflects the values of a bygone medieval Western culture obsessed with guilt and justice, and poorly commends Christianity to a postmodern world more interested in relationships and healing. The strongest objections are these four, the answers to which are included:
1. PSA harmfully presents God as being angry. The strongest opponents assert that the atonement was non-penal and was, in fact, God’s repudiation of anger and wrath in dealing with sin. To the contrary, however, the Bible is filled with hundreds of expressions of God’s holy anger against sin (see, for instance, Isa. 51:22; Hos. 8:5; Matt. 18:34; Rom. 1:18; and Rev. 19:13–15). According to the Bible, God’s wrath is the right response of holiness to sin (1 Kings 8:46; Hab. 1:13). John Stott has written, “The wrath of God … is his steady, unrelenting, unremitting, uncompromising antagonism to evil in all its forms and manifestations.”
2. PSA wrongly assumes retributive justice on God’s part, whereas God rejects the idea of responding to evil with evil. In reply, the Bible repeatedly depicts retributive justice on God’s part, in both Old and New Testaments. Examples include Noah’s flood, God’s judgment on Achan (Josh. 7:25–26), the slaying of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:9), the fall of Jerusalem to the siege engines of Nebuchadnezzar, and the final judgment that follows the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thess. 1:7–9). Of this, the writer of Hebrews asks, “How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?” (Heb. 2:3), and further declares, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31).
3. PSA teaches that God punishes his innocent Son for sins he did not even commit. This imagines a breakdown in the inner-Trinitarian fellowship of God and presents God as a monster who promotes violence as the answer to problems. The chief answer to this criticism is the doctrine of the Trinity itself, for the atonement is not presented as a violent act afflicted by the Father against the Son, but rather a saving work planned and achieved by the Father and Son working together for the salvation of the elect (John 6:38; 10:18; Gal. 2:20). Likewise, in the co-inhering unity of the Trinity, God the Father suffered the cross together with his Son. The cross was, in fact, the farthest thing from “cosmic child-abuse,” since no abused child rejoices to suffer his father’s wrath, as Jesus did because of his delight in delivering his people from the just penalty of their sins (Matt. 1:21; Heb. 12:3).
4. PSA involves a violation of the very ethics of peace and love that Jesus taught. Chalke writes, “It makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and to refuse to repay evil with evil.” “Such a criticism is profoundly perverse,” J. I. Packer answers, “for it shrinks God the Creator into the image of man the creature.”12 Moreover, the basis of the Christian ethic of love is God’s perfect justice in judging sinners. Thus Paul told Christians “never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). We are to do as God says and not to do as God does, since he alone is God and thus is equipped to judge truly and rightly.
Richard D. Phillips, What Is the Atonement?, Basics of the Faith
Criticisms of Penal Substitutionary Atonement
A division has grown in recent years between traditional Reformed theologians and some postmodern evangelical scholars. The former consider penal substitutionary atonement (PSA) to be the chief and controlling theory for the atonement, while admitting some validity to other theories. The latter are united in their rejection of penal substitution, whatever other theory they may favor. These opponents argue that PSA misuses Scripture, reflects the values of a bygone medieval Western culture obsessed with guilt and justice, and poorly commends Christianity to a postmodern world more interested in relationships and healing. The strongest objections are these four, the answers to which are included:
1. PSA harmfully presents God as being angry. The strongest opponents assert that the atonement was non-penal and was, in fact, God’s repudiation of anger and wrath in dealing with sin. To the contrary, however, the Bible is filled with hundreds of expressions of God’s holy anger against sin (see, for instance, Isa. 51:22; Hos. 8:5; Matt. 18:34; Rom. 1:18; and Rev. 19:13–15). According to the Bible, God’s wrath is the right response of holiness to sin (1 Kings 8:46; Hab. 1:13). John Stott has written, “The wrath of God … is his steady, unrelenting, unremitting, uncompromising antagonism to evil in all its forms and manifestations.”
2. PSA wrongly assumes retributive justice on God’s part, whereas God rejects the idea of responding to evil with evil. In reply, the Bible repeatedly depicts retributive justice on God’s part, in both Old and New Testaments. Examples include Noah’s flood, God’s judgment on Achan (Josh. 7:25–26), the slaying of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:9), the fall of Jerusalem to the siege engines of Nebuchadnezzar, and the final judgment that follows the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thess. 1:7–9). Of this, the writer of Hebrews asks, “How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?” (Heb. 2:3), and further declares, “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:31).
3. PSA teaches that God punishes his innocent Son for sins he did not even commit. This imagines a breakdown in the inner-Trinitarian fellowship of God and presents God as a monster who promotes violence as the answer to problems. The chief answer to this criticism is the doctrine of the Trinity itself, for the atonement is not presented as a violent act afflicted by the Father against the Son, but rather a saving work planned and achieved by the Father and Son working together for the salvation of the elect (John 6:38; 10:18; Gal. 2:20). Likewise, in the co-inhering unity of the Trinity, God the Father suffered the cross together with his Son. The cross was, in fact, the farthest thing from “cosmic child-abuse,” since no abused child rejoices to suffer his father’s wrath, as Jesus did because of his delight in delivering his people from the just penalty of their sins (Matt. 1:21; Heb. 12:3).
4. PSA involves a violation of the very ethics of peace and love that Jesus taught. Chalke writes, “It makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies and to refuse to repay evil with evil.” “Such a criticism is profoundly perverse,” J. I. Packer answers, “for it shrinks God the Creator into the image of man the creature.”12 Moreover, the basis of the Christian ethic of love is God’s perfect justice in judging sinners. Thus Paul told Christians “never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom. 12:19). We are to do as God says and not to do as God does, since he alone is God and thus is equipped to judge truly and rightly.
Richard D. Phillips, What Is the Atonement?, Basics of the Faith
civic
Active Member
It’s not about justice that’s the whole point. Jesus not once identified His death as justice.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I find this hard to believe.
it is the basis of our faith. Its what redemption is all about
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Your right, its about redemption
without justice being satisfied. there can be no redemption
The justice was satisficed. that is what Justification means.
I am not justified because I am innocent,
I am justified because someone innocent of my crimes, paid the debt I owe
I have never in all my days heard that people do not believe in this. and it worries me seriously that people are offering this as a biblical truth.
civic
Active Member
There is no satisfaction of justice mentioned anywhere in the NT passages on the atonement
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
then your still dead in your sin
you can not be justified apart from someone satisfying the justice of the court (in this case God)
Redemption paid for your sin, The price of redemption is an innocent person taking your judgment on himself. so you could be justified.
once again I ask you brother. why are you fighting this. what purpose does it serve to make people believe Jesus did not pay the sin debt we owe God?
how can we have hope. if Jesus did not pay our debt in full..
Unless you believe we must pay our own debt? Is this what you are fighting? I really honestly do not get it
civic
Active Member
Nope I’m forgiven , saved by His grace through faith. He died for my sins according to the scriptures, made atonement by giving His life for mine. That’s Ransom and substitution not penal justice.
His death was injustice as the innocent One. There was nothing just about it.
He was the Just, Holy, Sinless One who took my place, I deserved that punishment not Him. In love He laid down His life and suffered for my sins.
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
The penalty of death was not physical death.
Physical death is a consequence of sin.
So you would still be dead in your sin.
you can not have justification unless the penalty is taken. By either the use peyaing his own debt, or again, an inno0cent person taking it
Never said there was.
He did it out of love for you and me..
Ie. Penal substitution.
he took the penalty you own. and paid that debt in your place.. which led to God biong able to give you the gift of life, based on justification (a legal term)
ie. penal substitution
You seem to be for it. then you are against it..
again you still have an issue.
you have no proper justification in your belief here.. Your still dead in your sin. Because jesus did not suffer the punishment you deserve.
again, Spiritual death is the wage of sin, You were born dead. in sin your mother concieved you.
You must be born again. You are alive physically. through birth in the flesh. You must be made alive spiritually. through the spiritual death Jesus took on your behalf.
also. you are not explaining why Jesus screamed out.. He did not just wimper the words My God My God. he screamed them out. in extreme pain. what caused that pain. why was he silent up until the point. what happened on the 9th hour
