Diserner
Well-known member
So like a ghetto heaven?
An Important Point about Original Sin and our Fallen Nature
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
So like a ghetto heaven?
Just not universalism that says - all are going to be in the Kingdom of God when they die here and are resurrected. There is the outside and the inside of the Kingdom, that is shared in Revelation 21,22.
Rowan
Active member
Fortunately, we each have the power within us as believers to fight this invisible battle for our thoughts. Second Corinthians 10:4 says, “We use our powerful God-tools for smashing warped philosophies, tearing down barriers erected against the truth of God, fitting every loose thought and emotion and impulse into the structure of life shaped by Christ” (THE MESSAGE). We have plenty of “God-tools” within our grasp to fight this spiritual war that takes place in our minds.
ImCo,
I must disagree with both of these theories because 1. GOD cannot create evil even by a surrogate, Adam, or any system of procreation to create HIS bride as sinful...
and
2. GOD cannot create evil and, since all human nature is fallen at the time of our supposed creation in the womb as proven by death being the wages for sin and infants dying from conception on, it must mean that our creation had nothing to do with our sinfulness as humans.
My abiding premise: every person ever created by YHWH in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created before the foundation of the world with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to either to become HIS promised Bride by putting their faith in HIS claims to be our Creator and our Saviour from all sin without proof
OR
to choose by their free will to reject HIS claims to be our GOD and our only saviour from all sin by putting their faith without proof in the idea that HE was lying about all HIS claims and as a liar and to rebuke HIM as a false god.
Sin can accrue to someone ONLY by their free will decision to turn against GOD and break with HIM. And after all sinners were flung into Sheol in the earth to keep the heavenly host free from their predations, Rev 12:4-9, they are slowly sown, moved from Sheol into mankind, as explained in Matt 13:36-39, for the edification of the sinful people of the kingdom, ie, the elect good seed, to encourage them into repentance and sanctification...Matt 13:27-30.
Thus neither our sinfulness nor our human nature as sinners came from Adam nor by our creation but ONLY by our pre-conception choices by our free will to become sinful in HIS sight.
What is the reason the judgement day has not yet happened if this is true?? Why keep HIS Bride in sin and suffering? Whose sin is not yet defeated that interferes with the coming of that terrible day of judgment?
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!
Thus the sins of HIS legitimate children, HIS future bride, the sinful but good and elect people of the kingdom are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth.
civic
Well-known member
Rowan
Active member
2 Peter 3:9 states, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
1 John 4:8 tells us, "He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love."
So we can agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved.
Before salvation and we are still in the fallen condition, we are living the fact that sin affects our minds and our hearts.
Eph 4:18–19 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality, so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Notice, sin affects us inside and out, from our head to our heart to our hands. Sin darkens our thinking and separates us from the life of God. It blinds us to truth and hardens our hearts, and leads us to follow after lustful desires. This is why Paul says we are dead in trespasses and sin. Obviously this is a metaphor, because these “dead” people are quite active in their sins as they follow Satan and the way of disobedience. But they are dead to God, blind to the truth, and incapable living as God commands us to live. This is the condition of fallen humanity.
The good news of the gospel is that God did not simply leave us in this fallen condition. But because of His love for us He provided salvation for us through believing the finished work of Christ. Paul explains as follows.
Eph 2:4–5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are begotten again, or born again, out of sin and out of death into the new race of which Jesus is the head. Colossians 1:18 says that He is the head and we are the body. We know that the head comes first in a birth and the body follows. Jesus as the head has been born again from the dead, and we are part of His body. We are part of this new race through faith in His death and resurrection.
1 John 4:8 tells us, "He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love."
So we can agree that God loves everyone and desires to save everyone, but we differ as to why only some are ultimately saved.
Before salvation and we are still in the fallen condition, we are living the fact that sin affects our minds and our hearts.
Eph 4:18–19 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality, so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Notice, sin affects us inside and out, from our head to our heart to our hands. Sin darkens our thinking and separates us from the life of God. It blinds us to truth and hardens our hearts, and leads us to follow after lustful desires. This is why Paul says we are dead in trespasses and sin. Obviously this is a metaphor, because these “dead” people are quite active in their sins as they follow Satan and the way of disobedience. But they are dead to God, blind to the truth, and incapable living as God commands us to live. This is the condition of fallen humanity.
The good news of the gospel is that God did not simply leave us in this fallen condition. But because of His love for us He provided salvation for us through believing the finished work of Christ. Paul explains as follows.
Eph 2:4–5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are begotten again, or born again, out of sin and out of death into the new race of which Jesus is the head. Colossians 1:18 says that He is the head and we are the body. We know that the head comes first in a birth and the body follows. Jesus as the head has been born again from the dead, and we are part of His body. We are part of this new race through faith in His death and resurrection.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I can't agree with that. If God has mercy upon whom he has mercy, and whom he will, he hardens, then God doesn't desire to save everyone. The verses to the contrary (God is not willing that any perish, for example) require context to understand.
If God desires, i.e., is willing to save everyone, then everyone will be saved, otherwise God is not God.
Rowan
Active member
A man commits a murder and all his children, grandchildren, great grandchildren etc. etc. etc have to go to gaol with him? How is that justice?
We are all sinners because Adam condemned us to that and the Lord allowed it to happen so He takes responsibility by sending the Saviour. His grace and mercy is seen in what manner of salvation we are given which, is far more than the earthly paradise of Eden that Adam was given. We have eternal life. If Adam had had eternal life He would not have been able to die just as we (believers) don't die even though we sin.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
God has a point to prove and that is, His word is true. Evil and sin come from the desires of the creature not from the hand of the Creator.
God was able to harden the heart of others because of his Goodness, and those who hated that goodness, were harden by God's love, rather than soften.
You have to objectively look at what is said and consider how it is possible for it to be so.
God creates evil, because of his goodness, there are those who desire evil rather than good. You can see the Angels in heaven having choice to go with God or not, by their choice.
Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
...does NOT say that sin spread to all men but that death spread to all men because all men were sinners.
And just how did sin enter the garden with Adam when he was the third to sin in the garden unless as the first person to be brought into the garden he was already a sinner and brought his sin with him?
God creates evil...a gnostic doctrine.
and the word evil in Isa 45:7 is also (and better) translated as catastrophe.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I answered your question in my last post. When you want what God has said no to. Evil and sin come from within the creature.
James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Babies (minutes or hours old) die because they are sinners, right? What personal sin did they commit? They haven't, instead they inherited that "other law in the flesh" (Rom.7:23) from Adam because "flesh begets flesh" (Jn.3:6)
Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
GOD had to create us with a free will so that we could fully join HIM in the heavenly marriage based upon true love but that left it open for some to rebuke HIM as a bad prospect for a husband and as a false god.
Gen 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Is this a lie?
No, it is supposedly proven to be the truth in Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one OF us, to know good and evil:
OR IS IT???
On the surface the serpent's claim she would become like God, (keelyohim) seems be the same as GOD’s claim that Adam and Eve had become like one of us, except the prefix is different which contains an interesting anomaly…
The serpent’s suggestion in Gen 3:5: that she would be like God: כֵּֽ is a Hebrew prefix, meaning "as/like”
430
kê·lō·hîm,
כֵּֽאלֹהִ֔ים)
and OF US is
4480 [e]
mim·men·nū,
מִמֶּ֔נּוּ
OF: Strong’s 4480 mim … a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses (as follows):--above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), that is, as a separation!
AND
OF: Brown-Driver-Briggs: מִ mim, Strong’s 4480; is a "preposition expressing the idea of separation", hence out of, from, on account of, off, etc. with verbs expressing (or implying) separation or removal, whether from a person or place, or in any direction, also from guilt, calamity, etc. thus to descend from, the idea of separation, away from, far from, out of, out of Egypt or far from... so the words actually read: like us out from us
How the early Rabbis decided this preposition of separation was in this case one of inclusion would seem to have been a theologically driven (ie, eisegesis) rather than a common usage of this word. In ordinary use, this preposition seems to say the man is become as one OUT FROM (AMONG) us, to know good and evil, a rather predictable statement about a sinner, rather than become as one OF us, knowing good and evil... Since 'knowing' contains the meaning of 'having a practical experience of,' I contend that GOD does not know any evil at all but knows all about it. Thus the notion of becoming like GOD by the practice of, the experience of, evil is just plain wrong.
LIKE GOD is not the same as LIKE ONE GONE OUT FROM OR REMOVED FROM US though the English like GOD and like one of us makes them seem to be exactly the same!
God is not saying they must be removed from the tree of life because they are like HIM but because their new knowledge by their experience of evil removes them from HIM ! a much more Christian interpretation of what happens to our relationship with GOD when we sin! Sinful evil people living forever in HIS creation would be anathema to the GOD who is Righteous!!
Therefore this verse does not support the idea that GOD is the repository of all knowledge of evil by experience but, though HE knows all about evil, HE does NOT know the experience of evil as there is no evil in HIM and Light cannot create dark.
I am agreeing with you! That's how I know that GOD did not make us inherit any separation from HIM from Adam by HIS will, not our own will!!!!
Read my signature on every post!
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Similarities between Calvinism and Universalism.
