propitiation

TibiasDad said:
No I am not saying that at all; I am saying that propitiating is the divine and first part of the equation. It, in itself, does not actually save anyone. Belief in what God has done on our behalf brings the work of propitiation to its fulfillment. It is not effectual until belief, thus Peter’s words in Acts 2; “Repent and be baptized and you will be saved..” Repentance and being baptized is a demonstration of belief.

Doug
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Yes you may not realize it, but thats what you are saying. The Transaction of putting away sin for Gods elect is between the Father and the Son. The elect are just beneficiaries of their Covenant.

Ps 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

David here is a type of Christ, and his seed the Church.
 
brightfame52 said:
Now it is mostly taught and believed that the whole world here is every son of adam ever born, but if that was true, we would have the false teaching of universalism,
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There sure a lot of these - Bible passages that on their face seem to teach Christian universalism, but we're taught a certain way when we're kids (usually eternal conscious torment), so when we encounter these verses as adults we find ways to interpret them differently from their apparent meaning.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes you may not realize it, but thats what you are saying. The Transaction of putting away sin for Gods elect is between the Father and the Son. The elect are just beneficiaries of their Covenant.

Ps 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

David here is a type of Christ, and his seed the Church.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong! Hermeneutics is not your wheelhouse! Verse 3 is referring to David, and his seed in verse 4 is Christ! This is a Messianic prophecy. Hermeneutics 101!


Doug
 
For the sins of the people !

Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word reconciliation here is the greek word hilaskomai:
  1. to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
    1. to become propitious, be placated or appeased
    2. to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful, to expiate, make propitiation for,"
  2. to expiate, make propitiation for

The word is in the same family of words whereby we get propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 hilasmos

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now whose our sins ? Hebrews 2:17 tells us, for the sins of the people ! Not the whole World, or everyone without exception

The People in the original has the definite article meaning a specific people

So its the same definite people in 1 Jn 2:2. The difference is, the definite people are not confined or restricted to one nationality of people, the ethnic jews, but the definite people is scattered out throughout the whole entire world.

But the main point is, its a definite people, a specific people !
 
TibiasDad said:
So Christ is the seed of Christ…?

Doug
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I see already you are in the dark on this. This is about propitiation, and propitiation is salvation, those whom Christ is the propitiation for, as Per 1 Jn 2:1-2 they are saved from the penalty of their sins, and God has no wrath for them. See many are even now under Gods wrath Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If Christ was their propitiation as Per 1 Jn 2:2 even as unbelievers they would not be under the wrath of God.
 
brightfame52 said:
I see already you are in the dark on this.
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There are none so blind as those who refuse to see…

I’ve been at this for a long time @brightframe52, and have just retired from 42 years of ministry, there is very little that I am in the dark about. This is not to say that I am perfect or have experienced everything, but hyperbole like “you are in the dark on this” is nowhere near an accurate statement.

If David is symbolic of Christ, then David’s seed, Christ, is, symbolically, Christ’s seed.
David is not symbolic of anything: David is David, nothing more and nothing less. David’s prophetic seed is Christ, whose throne will last forever! Ockam’s razor!

Doug
 
brightfame52 said:
The whole World of 1 Jn 2:2 is saved simply because Christs is the propitiation of it, its a saved world, its a whole world saved from the wrath of God
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LOOK at what you quoted from 1 Thess 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

brightfame52 said:
False teaching, aint nothing about possible, thats from your mind, Christ is present tense the Propitation of the whole world, the saved whole world, saved from wrath. There isnt a time He isnt their satisfaction before Gods Throne, being their legal representative. You know what an advocate is ?
Click to expand...

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
 
brightfame52 said:
For the sins of the people !

Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word reconciliation here is the greek word hilaskomai:
  1. to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self
    1. to become propitious, be placated or appeased
    2. to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful, to expiate, make propitiation for,"
  2. to expiate, make propitiation for

The word is in the same family of words whereby we get propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 hilasmos

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Now whose our sins ? Hebrews 2:17 tells us, for the sins of the people ! Not the whole World, or everyone without exception

The People in the original has the definite article meaning a specific people

So its the same definite people in 1 Jn 2:2. The difference is, the definite people are not confined or restricted to one nationality of people, the ethnic jews, but the definite people is scattered out throughout the whole entire world.

But the main point is, its a definite people, a specific people !
Click to expand...
Yep, to all who believe!

Doug
 
DavidTree said:
LOOK at what you quoted from 1 Thess 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.



I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Click to expand...
Yep, and them who have Christ , that coming Lamb, as their propitiation 1 Jn 2:2, they are delivered from that day of wrath, it will be a day of Salvation for them.
 
TibiasDad said:
Nobody is saved before they believe! Nobody!

Doug
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Thats in your man centered theology. The elect world 1 Jn 2:2 are born into this world saved from Gods wrath, even as by nature children of wrath as others. Eph 2:3. Christ for them has propitiated Gods wrath, and their coming to Faith had absolutely nothing to do with it, its just as True when they hated God by nature.
 
brightfame52 said:
Thats in your man centered theology. The elect world 1 Jn 2:2 are born into this world saved from Gods wrath, even as by nature children of wrath as others. Eph 2:3. Christ for them has propitiated Gods wrath, and their coming to Faith had absolutely nothing to do with it, its just as True when they hated God by nature.
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I am not prone to use to use the “H” word, but this is heretical teaching. “…(T)hat whosoever believes in him might not perish but have everlasting life” establishes the undeniable cornerstone of the gospel that belief in Christ is the foundational principle of the gospel, and the fundamental distinction of those who are saved and unsaved. If you are a believing person, you are saved; if not, you’re not! Propitiation prepares the way for belief, for without it, there is nothing to believe in; but believing is the key to the door of salvation!

Doug
 
brightfame52 said:
Eph 5 6

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
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You forgot verse 7.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
 

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