Peterlag
Active Member
Yep, that's your 1 verse. The other 50 or 60 that say God rose Christ you ignore.
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
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Runningman
Active Member
Where did anyone say anything about Jesus resurrecting himself after he died?
Looks like Paul and all of the disciples went around the entire Roman empire teaching everyone that someone other than Jesus resurrected Jesus. They all agree with me.
That's all I need.
Which does not contradict that one verse.
Both are true.
Peterlag had accidentally forgot to as the 0 after the 1. Fred's findings point to 10 verses, if I counted right. Of course, some were a bit more direct and clear than others.
Peterlag
Active Member
The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that the other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead it is the Father, God, who raises Jesus, he does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:9-10. Also, another problem caused by Jesus saying “I will raise it up” is that Jesus died on the cross and so if Jesus was dead then he could not raise himself from the dead.
When a single passage seems to say something that is difficult and/or contradicts many other passages, we should not reinterpret the many clear passages so that they agree with the one contradictory verse. If we base our theology on an unclear or obscure text and ignore the clear passages, we inevitably fall into error. When dealing with a difficult passage that contradicts many clear passages, the correct approach is to consider other possibilities such as transmission errors, translation errors, or simply that the passage means something that we have not considered. Even if after considering other possibilities the obscure passage remains puzzling, we should not abandon the many clear passages and accept a contradictory interpretation.
Peterlag
Active Member
Acts 3:15 is one of my favorites...
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
No problem. Jesus is one with God. That does not nullify all other scriptures.
Runningman
Active Member
Compared to God, Jesus is a prince. Compared to Jesus, God is King.
Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Runningman
Active Member
It's a very clear one-liner that cannot be easily misunderstood.
civic
Active Member
they are in mine
Peterlag
Active Member
1 Corinthians 8:6...
The Concordant Version
nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
King James Bible
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
New International Version
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.
The Concordant Version
nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
King James Bible
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
New International Version
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand.
Runningman
Active Member
I once pointed out that Jesus denied being God in Mark 10:18, to which a Trinitarian said "Just tell me where Jesus said 'I am not God'" in Mark 10:18. After which, he 1 Corinthians 8:6 means Jesus is God because it calls him the one Lord. So I asked, "Just tell me where 1 Cor. 8:6 says Jesus is God." He never replied.
Peterlag
Active Member
I wonder often what will happen to these trinity folks who fight me tooth and nail everyday.I once pointed out that Jesus denied being God in Mark 10:18, to which a Trinitarian said "Just tell me where Jesus said 'I am not God'" in Mark 10:18. After which, he 1 Corinthians 8:6 means Jesus is God because it calls him the one Lord. So I asked, "Just tell me where 1 Cor. 8:6 says Jesus is God." He never replied.
- Will all of them even make heaven?
- How will they feel to learn they will get no kind or reward or thanks from Christ for handling the Word of God deceitfully?
- Will they just go in shock once they get to heaven and find out they fought their whole lives tooth and nail against the truth?
- Or will they just sit for a while realizing that everything they ever thought about concerning their religion was all a bunch of twisted lies?
haha. it hardly would be workers of deceit who try to erase two thousand years of understanding of Christ as divine. And some unitarians here say what passage requires a person to recognize the divinity of Christ, as if that still is not important. If it were proven to be wrong doctrine, the unitarian would have to admit there is no passage that says people should deny the divinity of Christ. If nothing else is obvious, the unitarians are inconsistent.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 2:18–22...
It is planted at the very beginning of Jesus ministry in John’s Gospel, whereas the Synoptics place similar material much later.
Its theological agenda is clear: portraying Jesus as prophesying his self-resurrection. But this stands in stark contrast with the rest of the New Testament, where the resurrection is consistently presented as the work of God or the Father, never as Jesus own doing. Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, Galatians 1:1).
Scholars like Raymond Brown and Rudolf Bultmann have argued that this passage bears the marks of Johannine theological redaction—likely a retrospective interpretive gloss rather than a historically original saying.
The passages show signs of later theological shaping—whether by scribes, redactors, or early communities attempting to frame Jesus in ways that reflect developing doctrines rather than original teachings.
These are not marginal questions. They strike at the heart of whether the texts being cited in defense of Trinitarianism reflect the voice of Jesus—or the voice of later theological editors.
If your doctrine leans on texts this unstable, maybe it’s time to rethink the foundation.
cc: @Runningman
I asked AI to finish this string of words "Bultmann was trying to demythologize the historical details of Jesus since people nowadays only"
The AI response was:
"Bultmann was trying to demythologize the historical details of Jesus since people nowadays only find meaning in the gospel when it is interpreted in ways that engage modern scientific and existential understanding, rather than relying on ancient mythological worldviews that can alienate contemporary audiences from the core message of faith"
The Gospel Coalition mentions Bultmann perspective :
What of Paul’s cosmic and apocalyptic statements, then, which speak of flesh, sin, cosmic powers, the pre-existence of Christ, and the decisive intervention of God within human history to achieve humanity’s liberation in Christ’s cross and resurrection? Bultmann understands all of Paul’s statements about God as mythological language used (taken from Gnosticism or Jewish apocalyptic) to express human existence.
Rudolf Bultmann: A Biography
About ten years ago, as an MDiv student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, my professor Bob Yarbrough once gave the wise counsel that one of the best ways to grasp modern Western history of NT research was to strive to understand the figure of Rudolf Bultmann. [Editor’s note: See...
Effectively Bultmann never has seemed to hold to actual miraculous and divine origin of Christ. So it is not odd if he sidelines these passages.
I asked AI to finish this string of words "Bultmann was trying to demythologize the historical details of Jesus since people nowadays only"
The AI response was:
"Bultmann was trying to demythologize the historical details of Jesus since people nowadays only find meaning in the gospel when it is interpreted in ways that engage modern scientific and existential understanding, rather than relying on ancient mythological worldviews that can alienate contemporary audiences from the core message of faith"
The Gospel Coalition mentions Bultmann perspective :
What of Paul’s cosmic and apocalyptic statements, then, which speak of flesh, sin, cosmic powers, the pre-existence of Christ, and the decisive intervention of God within human history to achieve humanity’s liberation in Christ’s cross and resurrection? Bultmann understands all of Paul’s statements about God as mythological language used (taken from Gnosticism or Jewish apocalyptic) to express human existence.
Rudolf Bultmann: A Biography
About ten years ago, as an MDiv student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, my professor Bob Yarbrough once gave the wise counsel that one of the best ways to grasp modern Western history of NT research was to strive to understand the figure of Rudolf Bultmann. [Editor’s note: See...www.thegospelcoalition.org
Effectively Bultmann never has seemed to hold to actual miraculous and divine origin of Christ. So it is not odd if he sidelines these passages.
Not surprising that Unitarians would run to these kind of people who believe as such.
Runningman
Active Member
I agree. No one said Jesus resurrected himself after he died. I keep telling them this, but it seems no one wants to hear it! There are a great number of things that are painful to the Trinitarian ear; unfortunately, most of those things are Biblical.
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