Your Views on The Trinity

[Runningman]

you have hallucinations of persecution.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. You only wish I felt insulted or persecuted. I feel nothing or the sort and your daily insults are weak, powerless, impotent. None of it gets under my skin which is why I never feel the need to engage. I just keep taking the high Scriptural road instead of the low road where you spend so much time flinging mud.

No Trinity mentioned in the Bible: the simplicitly of this point being powerful enough to derail any Trinitarian's argument is a testament to how weak the Trinity doctrine is and why the trinity doctrine has always failed. You simply lack the Scripture to support it.

 

[Peterlag]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

View attachment 2156

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


Who stretched out the heavens and the earth in this passage?

The Father or the Son?

 

[Runningman]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


Who stretched out the heavens and the earth in this passage?

The Father or the Son?

The LORD in Hebrews 1:10 refers back to the previously mentioned God in Hebrews 1:9. The previously mentioned God is the Father, the only true God, who anointed Jesus on the conditional basis of loving righteousness and hating wickedness. Therefore Jesus is not the LORD, but rather the Father is the LORD.

The LORD is the Father who Jesus was begotten by and sits next to. YHWH is the Father. See Psalm 2:7 and Psalm 110:1.

 

[Runningman]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

View attachment 2156

I absolutely agree with that. By the way, I will be here a lot more often, probably around 8-9 hours a day, just pushing back against all of the false doctrines going around. I decided after one of your comments I need to take up a permanent residence here.

 

[Keiw1]

God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.”

Translated as LORD against Gods will.

 

[Runningman]

Translated as LORD against Gods will.

Trinitarians probably wanted to muddy the waters about who God is. Sooner or later they began printing the Bible with LORD all capitialized so show where God's proper name is being used.

 

[Peterlag]

Translated as LORD against Gods will.

I have no idea what this means. God was the Lord in the Old Testament. Lord does not mean God. The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

 

[Peterlag]

I absolutely agree with that. By the way, I will be here a lot more often, probably around 8-9 hours a day, just pushing back against all of the false doctrines going around. I decided after one of your comments I need to take up a permanent residence here.

It will not matter if you are here an hour or ten. I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

 

[Peterlag]

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


Who stretched out the heavens and the earth in this passage?

The Father or the Son?

God. Jesus was not born yet.

 

[Runningman]

It will not matter if you are here an hour or ten. I have noticed intelligent and informed input on the subject of debating the Trinity comes from the unitarian camp. It seems low intelligence, ignorance, and an incapacity for critical thought are prerequisites for membership in trinitarian circles.

Being smart doesn't really make a difference. I am a very intelligent and rational person and it has served me well. I have always been this way and it has only sharpened and enchanced with age. Thank for God that. Have I ever been deceived, misudnerstood something, been wrong, or stubborn about something I didn't want to hear? Of course.

There are many Trinitarians here who are clearly very intelligent and rational in a particular school of thought, but they aren't able to accept challenges to it very easily. It isn't that they don't understand that the only true God is the Father. Of course they see that, but they can't digest it. They are spiritual babies and the only true God being the Father is spiritual meat. It seems so fundamental to us, but it's because we are in a completely different league. I am also sure many Unitarians were once Trinitarians. It likely took a lot more than reading Scripture to finally understand who God is, but rather some spiritual handholding by God. It's just that most of them don't want that. It's nothing for God to ignore someone who refuses to help themselves.

 

[Peterlag]

Being smart doesn't really make a difference. I am a very intelligent and rational person and it has served me well. I have always been this way and it has only sharpened and enchanced with age. Thank for God that. Have I ever been deceived, misudnerstood something, been wrong, or stubborn about something I didn't want to hear? Of course.

There are many Trinitarians here who are clearly very intelligent and rational in a particular school of thought, but they aren't able to accept challenges to it very easily. It isn't that they don't understand that the only true God is the Father. Of course they see that, but they can't digest it. They are spiritual babies and the only true God being the Father is spiritual meat. It seems so fundamental to us, but it's because we are in a completely different league. I am also sure many Unitarians were once Trinitarians. It likely took a lot more than reading Scripture to finally understand who God is, but rather some spiritual handholding by God. It's just that most of them don't want that. It's nothing for God to ignore someone who refuses to help themselves.

If it's not ignorance then it's deception. I post data using more than a hundred verses and they say I only talk about my opinion and never use Scripture. I post awesome data about the trinity and they say I post nothing real about the subject and that I just talk but have no real substance. I ask a question like why would God come to the earth as a man or where does it say we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. And they say we already answered you. Is it ignorance or deception?

 

[Runningman]

If it's not ignorance then it's deception. I post data using more than a hundred verses and they say I only talk about my opinion and never use Scripture. I post awesome data about the trinity and they say I post nothing real about the subject and that I just talk but have no real substance. I ask a question like why would God come to the earth as a man or where does it say we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. And they say we already answered you. Is it ignorance or deception?

Yes, some of them are very clearly deceived and are themselves deceivers. I have one of them who has spent the past day trying to tell me that I believe the Trinity is mentioned in John 17:3. How absurd is that. Some of them are very clearly manipulators.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If Jesus is God, why did He say that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3?​

Answer



For opponents of the Bible, claiming there are contradictions or inconsistencies in the text has been one of the most common arguments against its reliability. One such claim is based on John 17:3, where Jesus states, “Now this is eternal life; that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Those antagonistic toward the Bible argue that this verse directly contradicts the claim that Jesus is God. They say that this passage proves that Jesus Himself agrees that there is only one true God, which is not Himself, since He refers to Himself as separate and distinct from the “true God.”



Context Is Key



A bit of context here is helpful. John chapter 17 is a prayer from Jesus to the Holy Father. Since this is a prayer, it is only natural for Jesus to refer to God the Father separately. In that prayer Jesus initially prays that both the Father and the Son be glorified (John 17:1–5). Next, He prays for His disciples (John 17:6–19). Finally, He prays for all believers, both current and future (John 17:20–26). These requests come at the time just prior to the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus was ultimately betrayed by Judas Iscariot and taken prisoner by the Romans (John 18:1–14). The fact that Jesus (the Son) and God (the Father) are presented as separate Beings is nothing new. In fact, the first time we hear from God the Father in the New Testament is at the baptism of Jesus. There, God says, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). Distinction of person does not equate to a lack of oneness.



Jesus and the Father Are One



Jesus claimed to be one with God, and that made His enemies furious. In John 10:30, Jesus states unequivocally, “I and the Father are one.” The next verse says, “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). Jesus’ claim to be God amounted to blasphemy in the eyes of the Jewish leaders. Jesus goes on to question them: “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’ Do not believe Me unless I do the works of My Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father” (John 10:36–38). Here, Jesus is challenging these skeptics to look at the miracles He had performed and come up with an explanation other than that Jesus and God the Father are one.



Even contrary spiritual forces agreed with the fact that Jesus and the Father are one. In explaining saving faith to believers, James, the brother of Jesus says, “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder” (James 2:19). Theologian Wayne Grudem explains the idea of oneness, saying that Jesus and God the Father “are distinct persons, and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God” (Grudem, W., Systematic Theology, Zondervan Academic, 1994).



Jesus Claimed to Be (and Is) Fully God



Though Jesus never actually said the words, “I am God” in the pages of the Bible, that doesn’t mean that He didn’t claim to be God. Right after speaking of the “only true God” in John 17: 3, Jesus spoke of the glory that He had with God “before the world began” (verse 5; cf. John 1:1). Earlier, Jesus had made the following statement to the religious leaders who were resisting Him: “Very truly I tell you . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). Jesus’ reference was to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” In this statement, Jesus told them point blank that He is God. The response of His enemies proved His statement was heard loud and clear. As they held stones to throw at Him, they said, “We are not stoning You for any good work but for blasphemy, because You, a mere Man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).



The Only True God — Conclusion



John 17:3 needs to be read in context to fully appreciate what Jesus was saying in that prayer. The contrast is not between the Father and the Son but between the Father and the world’s false gods and idols. Jesus is conversing with the Father who is in heaven while Jesus is on earth. Jesus’ statement that the Father is the only true God should not be seen as contradictory or inconsistent with the whole of the Bible, which supports the fact Jesus Christ is God.



From Got Questions.

 

[Runningman]

If Jesus is God, why did He say that the Father is the only true God in John 17:3?​

Answer



For opponents of the Bible, claiming there are contradictions or inconsistencies in the text has been one of the most common arguments against its reliability. One such claim is based on John 17:3, where Jesus states, “Now this is eternal life; that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Those antagonistic toward the Bible argue that this verse directly contradicts the claim that Jesus is God. They say that this passage proves that Jesus Himself agrees that there is only one true God, which is not Himself, since He refers to Himself as separate and distinct from the “true God.”



Context Is Key



A bit of context here is helpful. John chapter 17 is a prayer from Jesus to the Holy Father. Since this is a prayer, it is only natural for Jesus to refer to God the Father separately. In that prayer Jesus initially prays that both the Father and the Son be glorified (John 17:1–5). Next, He prays for His disciples (John 17:6–19). Finally, He prays for all believers, both current and future (John 17:20–26). These requests come at the time just prior to the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus was ultimately betrayed by Judas Iscariot and taken prisoner by the Romans (John 18:1–14). The fact that Jesus (the Son) and God (the Father) are presented as separate Beings is nothing new. In fact, the first time we hear from God the Father in the New Testament is at the baptism of Jesus. There, God says, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:17). Distinction of person does not equate to a lack of oneness.



Jesus and the Father Are One



Jesus claimed to be one with God, and that made His enemies furious. In John 10:30, Jesus states unequivocally, “I and the Father are one.” The next verse says, “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). Jesus’ claim to be God amounted to blasphemy in the eyes of the Jewish leaders. Jesus goes on to question them: “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son?’ Do not believe Me unless I do the works of My Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father” (John 10:36–38). Here, Jesus is challenging these skeptics to look at the miracles He had performed and come up with an explanation other than that Jesus and God the Father are one.



Even contrary spiritual forces agreed with the fact that Jesus and the Father are one. In explaining saving faith to believers, James, the brother of Jesus says, “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder” (James 2:19). Theologian Wayne Grudem explains the idea of oneness, saying that Jesus and God the Father “are distinct persons, and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God” (Grudem, W., Systematic Theology, Zondervan Academic, 1994).



Jesus Claimed to Be (and Is) Fully God



Though Jesus never actually said the words, “I am God” in the pages of the Bible, that doesn’t mean that He didn’t claim to be God. Right after speaking of the “only true God” in John 17: 3, Jesus spoke of the glory that He had with God “before the world began” (verse 5; cf. John 1:1). Earlier, Jesus had made the following statement to the religious leaders who were resisting Him: “Very truly I tell you . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). Jesus’ reference was to Exodus 3:14 when God revealed Himself as the “I AM.” In this statement, Jesus told them point blank that He is God. The response of His enemies proved His statement was heard loud and clear. As they held stones to throw at Him, they said, “We are not stoning You for any good work but for blasphemy, because You, a mere Man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).



The Only True God — Conclusion



John 17:3 needs to be read in context to fully appreciate what Jesus was saying in that prayer. The contrast is not between the Father and the Son but between the Father and the world’s false gods and idols. Jesus is conversing with the Father who is in heaven while Jesus is on earth. Jesus’ statement that the Father is the only true God should not be seen as contradictory or inconsistent with the whole of the Bible, which supports the fact Jesus Christ is God.



From Got Questions.

All arguments aside, John 17:1-3 is still there saying that the Father is the only true God. The plain text reading of the passage is intuitive and doesn't invite anyone to attempt to refute Jesus or explain away what he said.

It's also repeated explicitly in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6. So we have a doctrine about the Father being the only true God, not just a standalone verse about the matter. What is your workaround for those?

 

[Peterlag]

There's no verse anywhere that says Jesus laid aside his deity. Nowhere...

And Jesus never taught the trinity. In fact, nobody ever taught the trinity. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.