Your Views on The Trinity

The burden of proof is with Elohim.
Elohim doesn't support the concept of a multi-person God. Can't remember who it was, but I was chatting with someone here last week about how God is invariably identified with singular pronouns wherever elohim is used of God. It's becauase elohim isn't about a plurality of persons. Elohim is also used of humans, too, sometimes.
 
Want a fun experiment that will make every trinitarian squirm? Ask them to provide evidence that anyone practiced Trinitarianism in Scripture.

This is part of your problem.

It is not a religion. It is a core belief we hold. Asking if anyone "practiced" Trinitarianism in scripture would be like asking
who might have practiced Jesusism .
They'll probably quote their usually handful of verses scattered all around the New Testament, but don't let up. Ask them where anyone identified or defined God as "three persons who are one God" or where anyone worshipped or prayed to the Trinity.

I have given more then my share of scriptures over time. NO MORE. You did not read them then and you wont now.
They won't have any solid, definitive, explicit answers. It's because the Trinity is fake.
 
2nd century proto-Trintiarians were not what you would consider orthodox. Most didn't believe Jesus was co-equal with God nor the Holy Spirit a third person. They wouldn't fit in at your church. But I want you to prove the Trinity using evidence from the Bible that it is a concept of God they actually believed in.

I am not saying quote a verse here and there that seems to suggest Jesus is God and say "wow look he's a member of the trinity!" I am just asking you to show where anyone, at any time, made any conclusive statements about their belief in God matches yours.
you just agreed with what I said, namely that the second-century church did not resolve the details about Christ's divinity with respect to the Father. I'm not well-versed on the early writers, but they were having to figure out lots of details about scriptures without having the latest bible software.
 
So. You really want people in the second century, who had not had opportunity to reconcile the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit to have already expressed the Trinitarian doctrine? That is a bit anachronistic.. You have to pretend like all divine knowledge suddenly came to them.
I think it is because he simply has no clue and does not want one either.

Anyone who would ask to provide evidence that anyone practiced Trinitarianism in Scripture. (reply 2142) Does not know
or want to about the Trinity.
 
This is part of your problem.

It is not a religion. It is a core belief we hold. Asking if anyone "practiced" Trinitarianism in scripture would be like asking
who might have practiced Jesusism .


I have given more then my share of scriptures over time. NO MORE. You did not read them then and you wont now.
They practiced Christainity in the NT, but not Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism isn't the same religion as Christianity. We have entirely different Gods. Yeah, it's true, we have the same names for the same persons in the Bible, but that's as far as it goes.

You guys say "Jesus our savior, the messiah, son of God, and he is God incarnate and God in the flesh!" At the beginning it sounded good, but then it took a turn. It would be like describing the widow with her 1 mite as a multi-billionaire when she isn't. Eventually, we just aren't even talking about the same person or God.
 
Elohim doesn't support the concept of a multi-person God. Can't remember who it was, but I was chatting with someone here last week about how God is invariably identified with singular pronouns wherever elohim is used of God. It's becauase elohim isn't about a plurality of persons. Elohim is also used of humans, too, sometimes.
Elohim is Plural

"Elohim/Plural Said, let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

The Burden of Proof is with ELOHIM
 
you just agreed with what I said, namely that the second-century church did not resolve the details about Christ's divinity with respect to the Father. I'm not well-versed on the early writers, but they were having to figure out lots of details about scriptures without having the latest bible software.
So you admit that Trinitarianism isn't what the Bible teaches. Are we on the same page?
 
Elohim is Plural

"Elohim/Plural Said, let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"
The "us" and "our" does not identify God as multi-person.

Look at the next verse. God is a singular person.

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.
The Burden of Proof is with ELOHIM
If elohim is more than one person then where is God ever described as "they" or "them?"
 
If elohim is more than one person then where is God ever described as "they" or "them?"
"let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Here is the reason why you do not see 'they' or 'them' after Genesis chapter 1

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 
They practiced Christainity in the NT, but not Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism isn't the same religion as Christianity. We have entirely different Gods. Yeah, it's true, we have the same names for the same persons in the Bible, but that's as far as it goes.

You guys say "Jesus our savior, the messiah, son of God, and he is God incarnate and God in the flesh!" At the beginning it sounded good, but then it took a turn. It would be like describing the widow with her 1 mite as a multi-billionaire when she isn't. Eventually, we just aren't even talking about the same person or God.
"Ὕπαγε ὀπίσω μου, Σατανᾶ"
 
Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

Elohim is always plural. It plural of Eloah.

That will never change.


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27

  • male and female He created them.

Was Eve created in the image of God?
 
The "us" and "our" does not identify God as multi-person.

Look at the next verse. God is a singular person.

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

If elohim is more than one person then where is God ever described as "they" or "them?"
Genesis 1:27 is SAME as the previous verse 26

Us Our Our = 3x Spoken

His He He = 3x Spoken

FATHER is HE
SON is HE
HOLY SPIRIT is HE
 
The "us" and "our" does not identify God as multi-person.

Look at the next verse. God is a singular person.

Genesis 1
27So God created man in His own image;
in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them.

If elohim is more than one person then where is God ever described as "they" or "them?"

Elohim is a plural word.


In addition the pronoun “He” is not found in verse 27, in the original language.


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

Created he is simply the word bara, which means create.



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Elohim is a plural word.


In addition the pronoun “He” is not found in verse 27, in the original language.


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

Created he is simply the word bara, which means create.



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You are missing the Point of Truth made by Elohim

So God
אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

created
וַיִּבְרָ֨א (way·yiḇ·rā)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

man
הָֽאָדָם֙ (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 120: 1) man, mankind 1a) man, human being 1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT) 1c) Adam, first man 1d) city in Jordan valley

in His [own] image;
בְּצַלְמ֔וֹ (bə·ṣal·mōw)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 6754: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

in the image
בְּצֶ֥לֶם (bə·ṣe·lem)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6754: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

of God
אֱלֹהִ֖ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

He created
בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

him;
אֹת֑וֹ (’ō·ṯōw)
Direct object marker | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 853: 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative

male
זָכָ֥ר (zā·ḵār)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 2145: n m 1) male (of humans and animals) adj 2) male (of humans)

and female
וּנְקֵבָ֖ה (ū·nə·qê·ḇāh)
Conjunctive waw | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 5347: 1) female 1a) woman, female child 1b) female animal

He created
בָּרָ֥א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

them.
אֹתָֽם׃ (’ō·ṯām)
Direct object marker | third person masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 853: 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative
 
You are missing the Point of Truth made by Elohim

So God
אֱלֹהִ֤ים ׀ (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

created
וַיִּבְרָ֨א (way·yiḇ·rā)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

man
הָֽאָדָם֙ (hā·’ā·ḏām)
Article | Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 120: 1) man, mankind 1a) man, human being 1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT) 1c) Adam, first man 1d) city in Jordan valley

in His [own] image;
בְּצַלְמ֔וֹ (bə·ṣal·mōw)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 6754: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

in the image
בְּצֶ֥לֶם (bə·ṣe·lem)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6754: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

of God
אֱלֹהִ֖ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

He created
בָּרָ֣א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

him;
אֹת֑וֹ (’ō·ṯōw)
Direct object marker | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 853: 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative

male
זָכָ֥ר (zā·ḵār)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 2145: n m 1) male (of humans and animals) adj 2) male (of humans)

and female
וּנְקֵבָ֖ה (ū·nə·qê·ḇāh)
Conjunctive waw | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 5347: 1) female 1a) woman, female child 1b) female animal

He created
בָּרָ֥א (bā·rā)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1254: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

them.
אֹתָֽם׃ (’ō·ṯām)
Direct object marker | third person masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 853: 1) sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative
I’m sorry. I don’t see your point of Elohim speaking three times here.
 
"let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Here is the reason why you do not see 'they' or 'them' after Genesis chapter 1

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
For the sake of consistency, if God is more than one person then He would be consistently be referred to in the plural "Us, We, They, Them" and so on. Never happens in the Bible. God is always referred to with singular pronouns throughout 100% of the Bible.

The "Us" in Genesis doesn't refer to a Trinity. There is no mentioned of a Trinity in the Bible in the first place.
 
Elohim is always plural. It plural of Eloah.

That will never change.


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27

  • male and female He created them.

Was Eve created in the image of God?
Elohim, though it is a plural word in Hebrew grammar, it doesn't refer to numerical plurality. For example, in Psalm 45:6 the human king with a queen is called elohim. Not because he has a siamese twin or a split personality, but because he is singular person called elohim for the sake of amplification and intensification. Since God is always referred to with singular pronouns, it's the same case with God. God is a singular person known as the Father.
 
Genesis 1:27 is SAME as the previous verse 26

Us Our Our = 3x Spoken

His He He = 3x Spoken

FATHER is HE
SON is HE
HOLY SPIRIT is HE
"Us" is plural and "He" is singular. An Us doesn't suddenly became a He because God is always referred to in the singular in the Bible. God is the Father, YHWH, not the Trinity.
 
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