Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition

[dwight92070]

No such proof exists.



No, it doesn't.

Jesus said, "If you ASK ME anything in MY name, I will do it. John 14:14.
Paul said, " ... saints by calling, with all who in every place CALL ON THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, their Lord and ours: ..."
Yes, we CAN pray to the Father, and should, but it's not inappropriate to pray to Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

If Jesus is not God, then we lose everything.

Mighty powerful. What verse in Scripture says that?

 

[dwight92070]

Remember that Jesus and the Father and pretty tight with each other. In fact, they ARE each other. They ARE God.

 

[Wrangler]

And if Jesus is not God then we cannot trust the Bible at all, because it clearly states that the full deity of God resided in Jesus

And you don't recognize how that proves Jesus is NOT God? It explicitly says God resides in this man. This verse Col 2:9 depicts Jesus as a container, not the deity within the container. God resides within us also. Romans 8:9. Does that make us God? If not, why not?

 

[dwight92070]

If Jesus is not God, then we lose everything.
If Jesus is finite, then He can only absolve a finite amount of sin. If I was able to live a completely sinless life, and was willing to offer my life in exchange for your death at Judgement, my finite life would only be able to cover you, not anyone else. Yet Jesus is the covering for sin for the entire world (past, present, and future). There would be no salvation for more than one person if Jesus is not God.

He said He was God (John 8:58, Mark 2:5-7, John 17:5, ). So if He is not God, then He lied and is not able to save anyone at all anyway.

And if Jesus is not God then we cannot trust the Bible at all, because it clearly states that the full deity of God resided in Jesus in His bodily form (Col 2:9).

So if Jesus is not God, then our hope is meaningless, our faith is worthless, and our future is nothingness.

God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. That right there says that Christ is God. If He was not God, then the world NEVER GOT RECONCILED TO GOD AND WE ALL ARE DOOMED.

 

[dwight92070]

And you don't recognize how that proves Jesus is NOT God? It explicitly says God resides in this man. This verse Col 2:9 depicts Jesus as a container, not the deity within the container. God resides within us also. Romans 8:9. Does that make us God? If not, why not?

Jesus was NOT just a container. He was the Fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. There's NO way that God in us is the same as God in Christ. Paul NEVER said that all the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in us in bodily form, did he?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus was NOT just a container.

You didn't answer my question.


IF Jesus were God, Col 2:9 would not say God dwells in him. Such juxtaposition proves most strongly that Jesus is not God.

There's NO way that God in us is the same as God in Christ.

There is only one God. He either resides in us or he does not. Which is it? Is Romans 8:9 wrong?

Paul NEVER said that all the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in us bodily, did he?

There is no "godhead" in Scripture. You must be relying on a bad translation.

Jesus, being Anointed by God, is certainly a better container for the indwelling God as Acts 2:36 explains.


God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ
Acts 2:36 (CEV)

Reading comprehension questions.
1. Who made Jesus lord? God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

2. Who Anointed Jesus to be the Christ? God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

 

[Truther]

Huh? Just because there is a mediator, does not men you cannot talk directly to God.

What you say contradicts Christs teaching us to pray only to God who alone is the Father.

I pray to God THROUGH Jesus since his ascension.

They were commanded by Jesus to pray to the Father only while he was on earth still.

It would have been awkward to have them pray to him pre ascension, right?

 

[Truther]

"The Word was God"< who is "God manifested in the Flesh", Virgin Born.

Jesus said....."i am from Above, and you are from Below".

That is Jesus describing His "Pre-incarnate self", as He's standing on earth, talking, as "God manifested in the Flesh".

Its amazing, isn't it.. That God became a man.. that God became one of us, to offer Salvation (His own body) to all of us.

God wrapped Himself in human flesh, and offered this to the world as .. "God hath made JESUS to be sin for us".

So, how to "see it".. .You have to see it by faith, exactly as you give your faith to God in CHRIST whom you can't see.

Listen ,
Christianity is SPIRITUAL....... you can't SEE IT., but its TRUE and REAL.

The son of Mary was in heaven and on earth at the same time.

 

[dwight92070]

You didn't answer my question.


IF Jesus were God, Col 2:9 would not say God dwells in him. Such juxtaposition proves most strongly that Jesus is not God.


There is only one God. He either resides in us or he does not. Which is it? Is Romans 8:9 wrong?



There is no "godhead" in Scripture. You must be relying on a bad translation.

Jesus, being Anointed by God, is certainly a better container for the indwelling God as Acts 2:36 explains.


God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ
Acts 2:36 (CEV)

Reading comprehension questions.
1. Who made Jesus lord? God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

2. Who Anointed Jesus to be the Christ? God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

 

[dwight92070]

Actually NKJV, which says Godhead, is an excellent translation. The only bad translations that I know of are the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation and Joseph Smith's Translation and their may be a few more written by other cults. Also there are a few other so-called translations that would more accurately be called commentaries, and should be avoided.

Romans 8:9 is an excellent verse: "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not His.

Did you notice how Paul uses the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ interchangeably? That tells us that they are the same, just as God and Christ are the same.

Yes, as believers, we have the Spirit of God, which Is the Spirit of Christ IN US. But that's a universe away from all the fullness of the Godhead being in Jesus (who made Himself equal with God) bodily. First of all, we're NOT God - Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, IS.

Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was LORD from all eternity. He came into this world as a baby, as LORD. Luke 2:11 The angel said, "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, WHO IS CHRIST THE LORD."

Did you notice from that same verse that Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was also THE CHRIST, which means THE MESSIAH, AT HIS BIRTH? However, I don't think He was the Christ before His birth.

Yes, when Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was born, God made Him both Lord and Christ. As the Word before His birth, He was already Lord, but now coming into this world, the angel announced that He was BOTH AT BIRTH.

We know that God anointed Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, because Christ means anointed, so that must have happened at His birth. Obviously He was anointed at His baptism, but He had already been the Christ for about 30 years. I suppose it's possible that Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, became the Christ at His baptism, and that the angel was speaking prophetically at His birth. But the title "Lord" was His from all eternity.

 

[Behold]

The son of Mary was in heaven and on earth at the same time.

Jesus is the "Bread come down from Heaven", or as He told you... "I am from above, and you are from Below".

God wrapped Himself in Human Flesh and "Dwelt among us", or as Thomas said to the resurrected Christ...""My Lord and my GOD">

This is why Jesus told you....>"when you've seen ME....... you've SEEN........the Father'".

 

[dwight92070]

Actually NKJV, which says Godhead, is an excellent translation. The only bad translations that I know of are the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation and Joseph Smith's Translation and their may be a few more written by other cults. Also there are a few other so-called translations that would more accurately be called commentaries, and should be avoided.

Romans 8:9 is an excellent verse: "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is not His.

Did you notice how Paul uses the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ interchangeably? That tells us that they are the same, just as God and Christ are the same.

Yes, as believers, we have the Spirit of God, which Is the Spirit of Christ IN US. But that's a universe away from all the fullness of the Godhead being in Jesus (who made Himself equal with God) bodily. First of all, we're NOT God - Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, IS.

Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was LORD from all eternity. He came into this world as a baby, as LORD. Luke 2:11 The angel said, "For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, WHO IS CHRIST THE LORD."

Did you notice from that same verse that Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was also THE CHRIST, which means THE MESSIAH, AT HIS BIRTH? However, I don't think He was the Christ before His birth.

Yes, when Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, was born, God made Him both Lord and Christ. As the Word before His birth, He was already Lord, but now coming into this world, the angel announced that He was BOTH AT BIRTH.

We know that God anointed Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, because Christ means anointed, so that must have happened at His birth. Obviously He was anointed at His baptism, but He had already been the Christ for about 30 years. I suppose it's possible that Jesus, who made Himself equal with God, became the Christ at His baptism, and that the angel was speaking prophetically at His birth. But the title "Lord" was His from all eternity.

How about the Greek Interlinear? It says "Godhead" also.

 

[dwight92070]

Jesus is the "Bread come down from Heaven", or as He told you... "I am from above, and you are from Below".

God wrapped Himself in Human Flesh and "Dwelt among us", or as Thomas said to the resurrected Christ...""My Lord and my GOD">

This is why Jesus told you....>"when you've seen ME....... you've SEEN........the Father'".

 

[dwight92070]

Amen Behold! Here is a fascinating verse, John 8:42:

" ... If God were your Father, you would love Me, (1) for I proceeded forth (2) and came from God;

It's almost like He's saying "He came from God" two times in a row. Why would He say it that way? The first one (for I proceeded forth) could be translated "to come out of", so the sentence could read "for I came out of God and came from God". It's as if He is part of the essence of God Himself, so that part of God's essence, yet still very much God Himself, came down from heaven to the earth.

John 16:28 is very similar:
"(1) I came forth from the Father and (2) have come into the world." Why did He not say: I came forth from the Father into the world? Again, it appears that there were 2 things going on there. (1) He came out of the Father, and (2) He came into the world.

Steve Gregg gave a good illustration. He said a man from Colorado went to the ocean, got a bucket of ocean water, and brought it home with him. In Colorado, he took that bucket of water to a scientist, to have it analyzed. After the analysis, the scientist said, "This is 100% ocean water, It came out of the ocean." There was more to the ocean than just that bucket, yet it was truly "the ocean".

Jesus is like that bucket of ocean water. He came out of God and came from God. While Jesus was on the earth, God was still running and controlling the universe, yet Jesus Himself was at the same time fully God. In a sense, you could say that there was more to God than just Jesus. This is why He could say, "The Father is greater than I.", yet at the same time, "in Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily".

 

[dwight92070]

Dwight you are getting all worked up over nothing. You are again all over the page with no sound and clear conclusions.

I recommend cutting down on the emotionally charge words and ravings. Become more objective and discuss only one or two areas of scripture you disagree with me, per post. Lends for a much better discussion imo.

Reflect on this post of yours for a minute. What are you expectations of me? To actually respond to all your editorial comments and for me to decide or to take a wag at what you want from me? Tell me what you want me to answer, more clearly and concisely. Thanks.

There are just a few sound and clear conclusions, you're looking right at them, but throw out a smoke screen as if you can't see them. Also falsely accusing me of "raving"and being all over the page and speaking emotionally charged words - without seeing each other face-to-face, there's no way you could know that, so your tactic is to rattle me and avoid answering some excellent points. What I want from you is to stop pretending there's no valid points to answer, and state your rebuttal. Isn't that what we're here on the forum for? There's really not that many points - I believe you're capable of touching on each one. I've answered two or three times that amount before. If you have a reasonable answer, it's not really that hard. You answered ZERO, so maybe you don't have a reasonable answer.

 

[APAK]

There are just a few sound and clear conclusions, you're looking right at them, but throw out a smoke screen as if you can't see them. Also falsely accusing me of "raving"and being all over the page and speaking emotionally charged words - without seeing each other face-to-face, there's no way you could know that, so your tactic is to rattle me and avoid answering some excellent points. What I want from you is to stop pretending there's no valid points to answer, and state your rebuttal. Isn't that what we're here on the forum for? There's really not that many points - I believe you're capable of touching on each one. I've answered two or three times that amount before. If you have a reasonable answer, it's not really that hard. You answered ZERO, so maybe you don't have a reasonable answer.

Have a great day Dwight...and a blessed one at that from your Father in heaven and his Son

 

[dwight92070]

Have a great day Dwight...and a blessed one at that from your Father in heaven and his Son

APAK made the claim that the Word in John 1 has to be a "What", not a "Who", but that is impossible to two reasons, actually I have four reasons. Since the Word was God, it can't be a "What" because:

1. A "WHAT" cannot BE God and it cannot become flesh, and dwell among us. ONLY a "WHO" can BE God and become flesh, and dwell among us. So you're wrong right from the start.

2. Also a "WHAT" cannot have gender and yet the WORD is referred to as "He" in verse 2; in verse 3 the WORD is called "Him" two times; and again "Him" is used in verse 4.

Even 1 John 1:1 disproves your faulty interpretation: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life ..."

3. If the Word is a "What", then how could it be "from the beginning", and how could John hear it? No created "What" is from the beginning - only God is from the beginning.

I know what you're thinking. John says "what" not "who". Correct but what is the "what" he is referring to? He tells us the "what" is the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us. That eternal life, 1 John 5:11 tells us, IS IN HIS SON, and He is a "WHO", not a "WHAT".

4. Jesus is also called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

 

[dwight92070]

Thank you, I am having a great day by the grace of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

 

[APAK]

APAK made the claim that the Word in John 1 has to be a "What", not a "Who", but that is impossible to two reasons, actually I have four reasons. Since the Word was God, it can't be a "What" because:

1. A "WHAT" cannot BE God and it cannot become flesh, and dwell among us. ONLY a "WHO" can BE God and become flesh, and dwell among us. So you're wrong right from the start.

2. Also a "WHAT" cannot have gender and yet the WORD is referred to as "He" in verse 2; in verse 3 the WORD is called "Him" two times; and again "Him" is used in verse 4.

Even 1 John 1:1 disproves your faulty interpretation: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life ..."

3. If the Word is a "What", then how could it be "from the beginning", and how could John hear it? No created "What" is from the beginning - only God is from the beginning.

I know what you're thinking. John says "what" not "who". Correct but what is the "what" he is referring to? He tells us the "what" is the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us. That eternal life, 1 John 5:11 tells us, IS IN HIS SON, and He is a "WHO", not a "WHAT".

4. Jesus is also called "The Word of God" in Revelation 19:13.

Well in John 1-3 the 'what' or 'it' does not refer to God or even his Spirit in this case. It refers to His word or logos that must be an 'it,' by scripture context and the of Greek into English language grammar rules. They cannot be violated. And then the translation that 'the word was God' is unfortunately misleading and in err. This 'what' or 'it' for this 'word' was divine, not God; eventhough God is the source of divinity and the sole Godhead. The word it is the core center of life within God. It is his core attribute. The 'what' is the word that means his expression, inner voice, mental faculties, reasoning, intelligence, that plans and causes things to happen in concert with his Spirit, as in the Creation Genesis. The word of God conceives the initial idea as part of his plan and his Holy Spirit executes it as his power.

And in 1 John, the 'word of life' or the word of his Father God was living in Jesus that they saw, heard and touched. Jesus became the very image of his Father God. He became a human being with the word of his God as John 1:14a says. This was the first and only time that God placed his word 'outside' himself, within a spirit of his human creation - his Son.

And yes of course as in 1 John 5:11..this 'word of life' came from his Father and was placed from his birth IN HIS SON indeed. So the 'word' never changes ITS gender it is always a neuter gender when translated into English.

I hope this clears it all up for you from my perspective.

Thanks for the opportunity - APAK