Why The Trinity is Wrong: Juxtaposition

[dwight92070]

Civic, I agree with you 100%, although I will be the first to admit that I have done that very thing, yes, right here on this forum. Don't you think that it was name-calling that got Jesus crucified? Of course, it was God's will for Him to die for us, but Jesus' righteous condemnation of the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers infuriated them and the scriptures tell us that they wanted to kill Him. Isn't it true that if Jesus participated on this forum, that you would have to kick Him off? Actually, maybe not, since you would recognize that HE had the right and authority to say such words.

He told the Pharisees that they cleaned "the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? ... But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet you disregard justice and the love of God ... Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it." Hypocrites! White-washed walls! Blind guides of the blind!

 

[Truther]

Indeed Wrangler, Yahshua is in the temple and those of his saints ALL will be in the temple of HIS God (Father of the heavens or lights who created them) and also write 'on' the saints the name of HIS God and the name of the city of HIS (My) God. 3x Yahshua is acknowledging his God who is also my God.

Jesus is God per Rev 3 and has a God at the same time.

God inside the man Christ Jesus =the man being God by default.

God never removed his son's personality or human spirit, but just entered into it.

 

[civic]

Civic, I agree with you 100%, although I will be the first to admit that I have done that very thing, yes, right here on this forum. Don't you think that it was name-calling that got Jesus crucified? Of course, it was God's will for Him to die for us, but Jesus' righteous condemnation of the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers infuriated them and the scriptures tell us that they wanted to kill Him. Isn't it true that if Jesus participated on this forum, that you would have to kick Him off? Actually, maybe not, since you would recognize that HE had the right and authority to say such words.

He told the Pharisees that they cleaned "the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? ... But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet you disregard justice and the love of God ... Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it." Hypocrites! White-washed walls! Blind guides of the blind!

The difference between Jesus and the rest of us is He is God and knows the thoughts , intentions and motives of every man’s heart . We are flawed and cannot know a man’s heart or intentions. So are judgements are flawed. He judges in righteousness with pure motives unlike us.

 

[dwight92070]

I find that this helps: If I can picture in my mind the person who I am talking with - here on this forum - as someone who is sitting across from me at a Starbucks table, then usually, out of sheer decency, I will control my mouth and guard carefully what I say. When a person gets to the point where they condemn, attack, and degrade people to their face, they must have a very hard heart - OR they are led by the Holy Spirit to do so, like Jesus, John the Baptist, other prophets, etc.

 

[Truther]

This is supposed to be a response to Wrangler - see #311

Wherever the word "Jesus" is in the New Testament, we ought think for emphasis, "Jesus, Who made Himself equal with God". John 5:18
Who raised Jesus from the dead? Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead; "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19
Yes, we also have verses that say God raised Him from the dead, so which is it? Both because Jesus is God.

A Pentecostal minister freind of mine became a Unitarian to my surprise.

When he heard I changed positions from incarnationism to ancient oneness, he called me.

Fascinating conversation, that ended with him physically unable to quote this verse over the phone to me....


28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.



It was super weird to see him refuse to verbally say it.

The JW's did the same thing to me.

It is a "Thomas doubting" spirit of deception at work in their minds.

Face it, they doubt Thomas.

 

[Rockson]

Actually sticks and stones was a lie from the pit. The most lasting and hurtful things that are done to people are those demeaning words that people say to others that last a lifetime by spiritual, emotional and pyscological abuse by husbands to their wives and parents to their children. Those hurt and last decades longer than stick/stones. The Bible is full of rebuking those with foul mouths, demeaning and belittling talk, putting down others etc......

I agree with you Civic.....words can inflict a great deal of pain and agony and linger in one's consciousness for years. I do believe though and I'm guessing you would agree God has given us overcoming coping skills I'll call them....from God's word. What I found with me when I let Jesus words settle down in my heart I see things from a different perspective.

Here's something that has helped me forgive people in a very easy way.....understand that people in this world are very much influenced by Satan. He and his Kingdom of fallen spirits USE people to seek to bring us down. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.... Eph 6 and when we .understand they're using people it pretty much creates a consciousness within me anyway of even feeling sorry for them. I can have a lot more compassion towards them when I think this way.

The fiery darts of the devil are launched at us but we are to consider that we wear the breastplate of LOVE. 1 Thes 5:8 Wearing LOVE'S breastplate doesn't mean you won't feel the impact but just like wearing a bullet proof jacket.....the impact doesn't wipe you out. I had an example of this just the other day. I had to go to another city and during my drive I was praying and worshiping God.

Scriptures began coming up into my spirit I believe by God of love and forgiveness. I found myself praying Lord I remember the King story Matt 18:21 .....the one who had a great debt and the King forgave him but he went to his fellow servant that owed him a small debt and didn't forgive him. And the Lord's prayer forgive us EVEN AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us. Lk 11:4

So I found myself praying while driving Lord you'll forgive me in the measure I forgive another.....what if felt the Lord said to me was, "Bob look....what someone might do to you is wrong. Yes they might act like a jerk but keep in mind you haven't always been perfect in life either. I might even agree with you the person did you a horrible wrong....but that's not the point. You yourself have done horrible things as well. So freely you've received MY FORGIVENESS FREELY GIVE.

Keep my LOVE circulating around. If you block it up...well...why? And what can you then expect? So I prayed out, "Yes, yes, yes I forgive all others today Lord and I don't just forgive them 7 times but 70 X 7" I felt the Lord told me too, and to let you know......if you show love to another and refuse to retain bitterness.....I'll reward you for doing so yes even in the next world." Recall Jesus did say rejoice and be glad when persecuted and whY? For great is your reward in heaven! Matt 5:12

So.....here's what happened. About 4 hours later somebody said something so mean to me something so cutting one of the worst things I've heard in my life. OH my Gosh, I thought....BUT God prepared me for what was to come before it happened......to prepare me AND to let me know get ready for the storm. And with this knowledge you'll come on through AND with joy, PRAISE God, thank you Jesus!

 

[civic]

I agree with you Civic.....words can inflict a great deal of pain and agony and linger in one's consciousness for years. I do believe though and I'm guessing you would agree God has given us overcoming coping skills I'll call them....from God's word. What I found with me when I let Jesus words settle down in my heart I see things from a different perspective.

Here's something that has helped me forgive people in a very easy way.....understand that people in this world are very much influenced by Satan. He and his Kingdom of fallen spirits USE people to seek to bring us down. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.... Eph 6 and when we .understand they're using people it pretty much creates a consciousness within me anyway of even feeling sorry for them. I can have a lot more compassion towards them when I think this way.

The fiery darts of the devil are launched at us but we are to consider that we wear the breastplate of LOVE. 1 Thes 5:8 Wearing LOVE'S breastplate doesn't mean you won't feel the impact but just like wearing a bullet proof jacket.....the impact doesn't wipe you out. I had an example of this just the other day. I had to go to another city and during my drive I was praying and worshiping God.

Scriptures began coming up into my spirit I believe by God of love and forgiveness. I found myself praying Lord I remember the King story Matt 18:21 .....the one who had a great debt and the King forgave him but he went to his fellow servant that owed him a small debt and didn't forgive him. And the Lord's prayer forgive us EVEN AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us. Lk 11:4

So I found myself praying while driving Lord you'll forgive me in the measure I forgive another.....what if felt the Lord said to me was, "Bob look....what someone might do to you is wrong. Yes they might act like a jerk but keep in mind you haven't always been perfect in life either. I might even agree with you the person did you a horrible wrong....but that's not the point. You yourself have done horrible things as well. So freely you've received MY FORGIVENESS FREELY GIVE.

Keep my LOVE circulating around. If you block it up...well...why? And what can you then expect? So I prayed out, "Yes, yes, yes I forgive all others today Lord and I don't just forgive them 7 times but 70 X 7" I felt the Lord told me too, and to let you know......if you show love to another and refuse to retain bitterness.....I'll reward you for doing so yes even in the next world." Recall Jesus did say rejoice and be glad when persecuted and whY? For great is your reward in heaven! Matt 5:12

So.....here's what happened. About 4 hours later somebody said something so mean to me something so cutting one of the worst things I've heard in my life. OH my Gosh, I thought....BUT God prepared me for what was to come before it happened......to prepare me AND to let me know get ready for the storm. And with this knowledge you'll come on through AND with joy, PRAISE God, thank you Jesus!

Awesome brother thanks for sharing.

 

[Truther]

When it comes to arguing on a forum, we cannot enter into the ring with a "glass jaw".

We have to take the blows and hit back with a few uppercuts.

This is how iron sharpens iron.

I was on another forum observing other posters being emotionally crushed by arguments over opinions.

They say that opposing views are disunity and should be banned.

Fact is, we can't learn a thing new if we are easily offended.

Forums are only for "fellowship" in a fellowship section.

Not out in the wild west sections.

 

[civic]

When it comes to arguing on a forum, we cannot enter into the ring with a "glass jaw".

We have to take the blows and hit back with a few uppercuts.

This is how iron sharpens iron.

I was on another forum observing other posters being emotionally crushed by arguments over opinions.

They say that opposing views are disunity and should be banned.

Fact is, we can't learn a thing new if we are easily offended.

Forums are only for "fellowship" in a fellowship section.

Not out in the wild west sections.

Agreed but in a nice way heaping coals of fire upon their heads as we are taught in Romans 12 below

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.


17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[dwight92070]

Peter also calls Jesus "God" in 2 Peter 1:1 " ... to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: ..."

Anti-trinity people say that this is mistranslated - that it should read "by the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ", but I don't think the Greek supports that. The word for "our" in the Greek means "of us", and it seems to go with the word "God", not with "Savior Jesus Christ. No, I don't know Greek, but I can see in the Greek interlinear that "our" or "of us" comes right after "God", which can easily be translated "our God", which is the way the NKJV and the NASB translate it.

NOR should it be translated "by the righteousness of OUR God and OUR Savior Jesus Christ" because there are NOT 2 "ours" in the Greek, only ONE.

Not only that, but we know that BOTH God and Jesus are RIGHTEOUS, so we know that Peter is acknowledging that the Savior Jesus Christ IS GOD.

Also in verse 2, Peter lumps God and Jesus together again: "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord", -So the source of grace and peace is the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord
Then in verse 3, he says: "As HIS DIVINE POWER, (whose divine power? God's AND Jesus') has given to us all things ..."

 

[Rockson]

When it comes to arguing on a forum, we cannot enter into the ring with a "glass jaw".

We have to take the blows and hit back with a few uppercuts.

Good to make sure though one has paded gloves on when they do that. Even professional boxers use them.

Fact is, we can't learn a thing new if we are easily offended.

Forums are only for "fellowship" in a fellowship section.

Not out in the wild west sections.

God does however sets the criteria. 2 Tim 2:24

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. 2 Tim 2: 24

 

[Truther]

Agreed but in a nice way heaping coals of fire upon their heads as we are taught in Romans 12 below

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.


17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

One of the meanest poster I ever ran across was on my fellow Apostolic forum(preterist based).

At first, I was calling him satan etc., for his words because he was so vile.

But I noticed that he couldn't be banned no matter what, so I began to treat him like a fellow construction worker(joking back about his capping on me).

He began to melt down when he knew he could not intimidate me again.

Before they banned me, he was putty in my hands.

But, you know what???

He showed me numerous belief systems I had and I modified them because of these arguments.

He turned out to be an invaluable help to my theological and eschtological discoveries that know one else realized.

I gained a wealth of knowledge from arguing with "the devil"...LOL.

He was furious when I thanked him for all his input!!!

 

[Truther]

I can show you guys stuff you have never seen in your life that is scripturally accurate because of arguing with the rudest person I ever encountered on forums.
I celebrate him now.

He hates it when I brag on him too..LOL.

I showed him how he created an entire doctrinal position unwittingly...LOL

 

[Wrangler]

Actually sticks and stones was a lie from the pit.

No way. While we should speak with grace, ‘sticks and stones’ is our shield against those who don’t.

What does Scripture say about not being led astray by evil and words that ‘tickle’ our ears?

The notion of ‘tickle’ is generally meant being seduced by what one wants to hear. However, one could also take it to mean to stimulate in a way that those who do not succumb to temptation.

 

[Behold]

Let me show the reader 3 verses that presents Jesus in a way that underpins the doctrine of the Trinity.

Look at :

John 1:10.. IN this verse, you find Incarnate JESUS as the creator of the WORLD..

So, where does this come from?
It comes from the fact that "God Spoke Creation into existence" and Pre-incarnate Jesus, was "the Word who was God".

So, notice that Speaking..... and Word.........are ONE..... and that is why John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 present Jesus as the Creator.


Then, in Genesis 2, we find that God "breathed" into Adam, the living Spirit and Adam was made alive.
That Breath is the Holy Spirit,

Notice now .. John 20:22........"Jesus BREATHED on the Apostles and told them to receive you the HOLY Spirit".

See How GOD did the same with Adam, and JESUS who is God in the flesh, did the same to the Apostles ?

Reader, only GOD can give the Holy Spirit., and They did.

 

[Predestined]

If I'm committing idolatry than I WANT someone to call me out.

I consider a sign of them RESPECTING me to correct where I am in disobedience.

The Bible COMMANDS idolatry to be called out.

I may not agree with their assessment, but I have no problem with it.


There are some versions of the world's idea of "politeness" that are just not going to fit Biblical parameters.

I would urge the moderation team to consider again what exactly was WRONG with Carm moderation.

It is really not a good idea to EMULATE and COPY the Carm method of moderation, which guarded itself from all criticism.

We are nothing like moderation over there and we are not above the rules as they apply to everyone. We do not discriminate here by telling people they can only post in restricted areas and they are not welcome to post in certain forums. We are not a forum that segregates people based on their religious beliefs.

 

[civic]

We are nothing like moderation over there and we are not above the rules as they apply to everyone. We do not discriminate here by telling people they can only post in restricted areas and they are not welcome to post in certain forums. We are not a forum that segregates people based on their religious beliefs.

Yes we are not like all the other Christian forums with restrictions. We promote everyone’s freedom to post and the one ask is the golden rule. Not to much to ask is it? Maybe for some it might be.

 

[Truther]

We are nothing like moderation over there and we are not above the rules as they apply to everyone. We do not discriminate here by telling people they can only post in restricted areas and they are not welcome to post in certain forums. We are not a forum that segregates people based on their religious beliefs.

Carm suspends people for a plain argument if they don’t like you. You can take seven days off. For disagreeing. They are ridiculous.

 

[civic]

Carm suspends people for a plain argument if they don’t like you. You can take seven days off. For disagreeing. They are ridiculous.

I know that all to well and was on vacations all the time for opposing calvinism. Now I can debate it until my hearts content. without a vacation. rofl. I would even get banned for using a popcorn emoji, saying I'll get the popcorn ready.

 

[dwight92070]

Let me show the reader 3 verses that presents Jesus in a way that underpins the doctrine of the Trinity.

Look at :

John 1:10.. IN this verse, you find Incarnate JESUS as the creator of the WORLD..

So, where does this come from?
It comes from the fact that "God Spoke Creation into existence" and Pre-incarnate Jesus, was "the Word who was God".

So, notice that Speaking..... and Word.........are ONE..... and that is why John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16 present Jesus as the Creator.


Then, in Genesis 2, we find that God "breathed" into Adam, the living Spirit and Adam was made alive.
That Breath is the Holy Spirit,

Notice now .. John 20:22........"Jesus BREATHED on the Apostles and told them to receive you the HOLY Spirit".

See How GOD did the same with Adam, and JESUS who is God in the flesh, did the same to the Apostles ?

Reader, only GOD can give the Holy Spirit., and They did.

I never saw it that way. God breathed into Adam's nostrils "the breath of life". Genesis 2:7 The Holy Spirit does not enter a body through his nostrils. Genesis 2:7 Adam had his own spirit that God breathed into him, not the Holy Spirit. It DOES appear that Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit to His apostles, who already had their own spirit, in John.
Notice that Jesus did not FORCE the Holy Spirit on them, but commanded them to receive it. They had to be WILLING to receive it and obedient, which it appears that they were.

I know that all to well and was on vacations all the time for opposing calvinism. Now I can debate it until my hearts content. without a vacation. rofl. I would even get banned for using a popcorn emoji, saying I'll get the popcorn ready.

I was banned for a week on the Bible Forum, for strongly defending the Deity of Christ against 2, sometimes 3 anti-Trinitarians. In fact that thread is still going today with 111,633 posts as of today. I started it over a year ago with the title "Jesus is God". One of the "Jesus is not God" guys in particular would constantly reject the plain and simple and oftentimes obvious meaning of any verse or passage that I brought up showing that Jesus is God. He would get out his microscope and pretend he was analyzing a particular word. Usually his analysis would be a mile long and he enjoyed using words that I had to look up in the dictionary, or quoting so-called Bible scholars, who I always found out after a little investigation were biased against the Trinity to begin with. I told him repeatedly that he had a knack for making the simple, complex and confusing. When he was done, his conclusion was often a self-righteous "it's obvious that most Bible scholars disagree with you and any reasonable, thinking Christian can see that you are wrong.", or something to that effect.

But whenever the back and forth got a little heated, the "Administrator" would jump in and immediately chastise me for not acting like a Christian, and accusing me of turning everything into an unChristian-like verbal attack. He said that I should be learn from my "opponent's" example of how to behave like a Christian. When I responded to him, saying that it was not true that my desire was to turn everything into a heated, verbal attack, he fired back, basically saying, "Are you calling me a liar?" He immediately threatened to block me from getting on the forum for a week, to see if maybe that would teach me a lesson, although he said he doubted that it would. Shortly after that, I was blocked for 7 days.

I felt like a little kid whose Dad had sent to his room, until he learned to behave properly. He had NO respect for me whatsoever. I couldn't even defend myself, saying that his accusations against me were just as offensive as what he accused me of. In other words, he was a hypocrite, doing the very thing that he accused me of. But that must have infuriated him, since he was incapable of doing any wrong, being the mature "Christian" that he was.

After a week, I was able to return, but it was walking on eggshells. Several months later, our posts once again were a little too strong for his liking, so out of nowhere, he interjects, basically starting where he left off, accusing me, attacking me, shaming me for pretending to be a Christian. I saw no escape from this guys obvious hateful bias against me. He was getting ready to "teach me another lesson" by blocking me again. I decided to go over his head and email the person who was the head over all that ministry, who I happen to know personally. I explained everything to him as honestly as I could. He said he would talk with the Administrator, and tell him NOT to block me, or to EVER block me again. WOW! Thank you Lord!
Give someone a little power - even a "mature" Christian, and it sometimes goes straight to their head.

Thank you guys, on this forum, for not being proud, arrogant, know-it-all administrators, and recognizing that all deserve respect, and maybe sometimes the decency of a gentle rebuke, and also knowing that you too are flesh and blood.