Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[GodsGrace]

@Jim @Johann @GodsGrace

Jim, This is the Apostle's second answer to the objection contained in the 19th verse, in which, by another reference to Scripture, he asserts that the thing formed ought not to contend with Him that formed it, who has a right to dispose of it as He pleases. The word here employed is variously applied as signifying authority, licence, liberty, right ; but in its application to God there can be no question that it denotes power justly exercised. The mere power or ability of doing what God pleases, cannot be the meaning, for this is not the thing questioned. It is the justice of the procedure that is disputed, and it is consequently the justice of this exercise of power that must be asserted. With respect to all other beings, the licence, liberty, or right referred to, may be, as it is, derived from a superior; but in this sense it cannot refer to God. When, therefore, it is said here that God has power, it must mean that He may, in the instance referred to, use His power in conformity to justice. The right has not a reference to a superior as conferring it, but a reference to His own character, to which all the actions of this sovereignty must be conformable.

Power, then, in this place, signifies right or power which is consistent with justice. It is this right or power according to justice that is here asserted. When the potter moulds the clay into what form he pleases, he does "nothing contrary to justice" ; neither does God do injustice in the exercise of absolute power over His creatures. Out of the same original lump or mass He forms, in His holy sovereignty, one man unto honour, and another unto dishonour, without in any respect violating justice. Here it is implied that as there is no difference between the matter or lump out of which the potter forms diversity of vessels, so there is no difference in mankind, Rom. iii. 22 ; all men — both those who are elected, and those who are rejected, that are made vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath~ are alike by nature in the same condemnation in which God might in justice have left the whole, but out of which in His holy sovereignty He saves some, while He exercises His justice in pouring out His wrath.

That we are al] in the hand of God, as the clay in the potter's hand, is humbling to the pride of man, yet nothing can be more self-evidently true. If so, God has the same right over us that a potter has over the clay of which he forms his vessels for his own purposes and interest.

Looks like you're copying and pasting, which I don't do,,,but let's continue:

The potter and the clay.
God's sovereignty.
God can do whatever He wishes to do.
But is Paul speaking here about INDIVIDUAL pots?
Perhaps one pot is the Jews and one pot is the gentiles?
Perhaps pots means a GROUP of persons?

Let's assume that it means individuals.
So....does God make us into what we are and then decree every action of ours....
which makes us puppets in His hands .... (which Calvinists get upset when this is mentioned)
or
does God make these vessels for some kind of use?
Does the vessel have any say over how they're made?

2 Timothy 2:20-22
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Paul is making the same analogy as in Romans 9...using vessels as an example.
Note that there are different types of vessels.
Note that Paul says that they are to CLEANSE THEMSELVES from these things so that they could be made for honor and sanctified.
WE must do the cleansing.
WE have control over the vessel.
We are told to flee from lusts and pursue righteousness.

NEVER in scripture do I read that God will do for us....
but that WE MUST DO,,,that we must take action.

Paul will not conflict himself.

More on the Potter a little later.

The same figure as is employed by the Prophet Isaiah, in declaring the right that God had over him and all the people of Israel, God likewise employs, Jer. xviii. 6 : ' O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter ? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel.' A potter forms his vessels for himself, and not for his vessels. This determines the question with respect to God's end in the creation of man. Philosophers can discern no higher end in creating man than that of making him happy. But the chief end of the potter in moulding his vessels has a reference to himself, and God's chief end in making man is His own glory. This is plainly held forth in a multitude of passages in Scripture. Let man strive with his Maker as he will, still he is nothing but the clay in the hand of the potter. There cannot, indeed, be a question but that God will act justly with all His creatures ; but the security for this is in His own character, and we can have no greater security against God's power than His own attributes. God will do His creatures no injustice ; but this is because justice is a part of His own character. Our security for being treated justly by God is in Himself.

One vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ~ Some endeavour to explain this as implying that certain vessels may be made for a less honourable use, while they are still vessels for the Master's service. But it is not said that they are made for a less honourable use, but that they are made to dishonour, is the Apostle's assertion. It is true, indeed, that even vessels employed for dishonourable purposes are useful, and it is equally true that the destruction of the wicked will be for the glory of God. If any are condemned at all, and on any ground whatever, it is certain that it must be for the glory of God, else He would not appoint it to take place.

On the verse before us, and the preceding, it is to be observed that the Apostle does not say that his meaning in what he had previously affirmed had been mistaken, and that he had not said that it was agreeable to the will of God that the hardness of men's hearts should take place as it does ; he implicitly grants this as truth, and that he had asserted it. And so far from palliating or softening down the expression to which the objection is made, if possible, he heightens and strengthens it. All mankind are here represented as originally lying in the same lump or mass; a great difference afterwards appears among them. We ask, where does this difference arise? The Apostle explicitly answers, It is God who makes the difference. As the potter makes one vessel as readily as he makes another, and each vessel takes its form from his hand, so God makes one man to honour and another to dishonour. And God's sovereign right to do this is here asserted ; and he who objects to this, the Apostle says, speaks against God. Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus ? This representation is entirely consistent with all that the Scriptures elsewhere teach. In the fundamental doctrine of regeneration, and the new creation in Christ Jesus, it is expressly inculcated, and is entirely coincident with the question, "Who maketh thee to differ from another ? " 1st Corinthians 4:7.

 

[Johann]

Power, then, in this place, signifies right or power which is consistent with justice. It is this right or power according to justice that is here asserted. When the potter moulds the clay into what form he pleases, he does "nothing contrary to justice" ; neither does God do injustice in the exercise of absolute power over His creatures. Out of the same original lump or mass He forms, in His holy sovereignty, one man unto honour, and another unto dishonour, without in any respect violating justice. Here it is implied that as there is no difference between the matter or lump out of which the potter forms diversity of vessels, so there is no difference in mankind, Rom. iii. 22 ; all men — both those who are elected, and those who are rejected, that are made vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath~ are alike by nature in the same condemnation in which God might in justice have left the whole, but out of which in His holy sovereignty He saves some, while He exercises His justice in pouring out His wrath.

Decretal theology is where God has
decreed all events, including the salvation of certain individuals before
the creation of the world. This model
is rooted in Augustinian predestination and versions can be
distinguished throughout history.
God’s decrees are decisions that God
makes in eternity that govern history.

“The fact that some receive from God, the
gift of faith within time, and then others
do not stem from his eternal decision.
For all his works, are known to God from
eternity in accordance with this decision,
he graciously softens the hearts however
hard of his chosen ones and inclines them
to believe. But by his just judgment, he
leaves in their wickedness and hardness of
heart, those who have not been chosen”

Cannon 1.6, in Cannons of the Synod of Dort, 572
“According to the decretal model, one of
God’s eternal decrees was the pactum
salutis (Latin, “covenant of redemption”),
an agreement among the persons of the
Godhead before creation, to redeem a certain number of lost people. The concept developed into a movement known as
covenant theology, which emerged from
within the magisterial Reformed tradition
in the early 1500s in response to Anabaptist

Reformers, who opposed infant baptism.”
Christian Theology, page 620, Adam Hardwood
The terms, “covenant of grace” and “covenant of
works”, do not appear in the biblical text, although
many advocates see the concepts in scripture. Adam
and Eve failed the test of covenant faithfulness and
as a result God’s blessings turned into God’s judgement.

The pactum salutis is the theological inference for those who interpret the Bible with the presupposition that Augustinian predestination and
election is correct. This is how many reformed have
arrived to the conclusion that Romans 8:28-30 is
speaking to the ordo-salutis (order of salvation).
The “logical sequence” is
referred to as the order in
which God saves his
elect. The ordo-salutis
emerged from the
Reformation era
ORDO-SALUTIS

God’s eternal decree - predestination of the elect - Regeneration of the
elect - effectual calling - faith & repentance - justification - adoption - sanctification - glorification
The traditional reformed understanding
3 Largely Influential Systematic Theologies

1. Wayne Grudem’s
Systematic Theology
2. John Frame’s Systematic
Theology
3. John MacArthur’s
Biblical Doctrine

All take notes from the Westminster
Confession of Faith and Decretal Theology
Westminster Confession Chapter 3
“1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise
and holy counsel of his own will, freely and
unchangeably ordains whatsoever comes to
pass”

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17.
“3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation
of his glory, some men and angels are
predestinated unto everlasting life, and others
fore-ordained to everlasting death.”
a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. •
b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

Double Predestination
Some Calvinists do not believe in double predestination. What
they say is God does not have to predestine those he does not
elect, he only has to pass over them. All humans are deserving
of God’s wrath and judgement for their sin… so leaving them
alone just condemns them to Hell anyways.
But this is not consistent with Reformed theology. As we have
already learned, God decrees all things. I think Calvinists that
believe against double predestination are allowing their
emotions in one of two ways to argue against it:

1. “Save God” from being the one who determines & purposes
many to damnation

2. To appease their own concerns that the God who loves the
world and does not wish anyone to perish, really does
purpose most to perish
Double Predestination
“God does not predestine people to Hell for his wrath to
be poured out on them and that’s the only reason he
created them; he only passes over them and they get
what we all rightly deserve”
-palatable Calvinist’s logic

However, if God does decree only certain elect people
for his saving grace, and God knows all things…he in
turn is predestinating certain people for his wrath and
judgement.
-actual Calvinist’s logic
Decretal Theology’s Piety

1. Decretal theology carries the assumption that God
unilaterally acts in salvation only for his elect people. There’s no way that a person who believes this can
also believe they contribute to their salvation; the
conclusion is, this gives God the most glory

2. Decretal Theology/Calvinism is logically consistent
within it’s own belief system. No one can claim that
Calvinism is an inconsistent belief systematic, unless
one does not adhere to the complete systematic. Once
one does not adhere to the entire system it’s logical
conclusions break down

3. Calvinism/Decretal Theology has many adherents to
the system, which adds to the argument that this is a
viable/correct Biblical interpretation
vs
God’s Revealed VS Secret Will

“1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and
holy counsel of his own will, freely and
unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”
a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17.

“3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of
his glory, some men and angels are predestinated
unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to
everlasting death.”
a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. •
b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.
Westminster Confessions

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His
only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should
not perish but have everlasting life.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 3:16.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as
some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish but that all should
come to repentance.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Pe 3:9.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual
blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of
the world, that we should be holy and without blame
before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus
Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of
His will,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Eph 1:3–5.
Revealed

16 For God so loved the elect that He gave His
only begotten Son, that all the elect who believes in
Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Jn 3:16.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as
some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward the
elect, not willing that any of the elect should perish but
that all the elect should come to repentance.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Pe 3:9.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ, who has blessed the elect with every
spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose only the elect in Him before the
foundation of the world, that the elect should be
holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined the elect to adoption as sons by
Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good
pleasure of His will,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Eph 1:3–5.
Secret

God’s Revealed VS Secret Will
Ephesians 1:11
“In Him also we have obtained an
inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all
things according to the counsel of His will”
Justification for God’s Secret Will
God’s Revealed VS Secret Will
“the counsel of His will" does not
mean Decretal Theology/Calvinism is
true. People can use the same text to advocate whatever position they want about God’s will.

Don’t fall for the Calvinist using a verse in this way to advocate their position…it only is to add authority to their systematic. Instead, ask them to contextually and grammatically prove that is what the text says. Here them
out, check their work, and see if they know what they are
talking about. Many Calvinists just know how to espouse
what they’ve heard, they’ve not actually done the work to study it themselves. Hold them accountable, and encourage them to be a good Berean!

At this point I know many Calvinist will say, I have worked
through the text, and other great theologians have worked through the text as well.
What I would say to you is this: you have worked through
the text…but you’ve done so along with submitting to the
Calvinistic systematic and you believe Calvinism/doctrines
of grace is what the Scriptures communicate is true. You’ve
learned this is the way to interpret the Bible and you believe
that is the correct way to interpret the Bible. And as a result I believe you are only contextually and grammatically consistent within your presuppositions and submitting to
doctrines of grace/reformed theology.

Your consistency within the context ends when you insert Calvinism.
And as a result you have a different understanding of who
God is than what traditional Christianity has taught (the
early church and even what the OT saints believe who God is)
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications,
prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be
made for all men,

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may
lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and
reverence.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God
our Savior,

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the
knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between
God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Ti 2:1–6.
Revealed Secret

God’s Revealed VS Secret Will
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications,
prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be
made for all men,

2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may
lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and
reverence.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God
our Savior,

4 who desires some men to be saved and to come to
the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between
God and some men, the Man Christ Jesus,

6 who gave Himself a ransom for some, to be
testified in due time,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Ti 2:1–6.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has
appeared to all men,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Tt 2:11.
Revealed Secret
God’s Revealed VS Secret Will

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has
appeared to some men,
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Tt 2:11.

9 In this the love of God was manifested toward only
the elect, that God has sent His only begotten Son
into the world, that only the elect might live through
Him.

10 In this is love, not that the elect loved God, but that
He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation
for our sins.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Jn 4:9–10.

9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us,
that God has sent His only begotten Son into the
world, that we might live through Him.

10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He
loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for
our sins.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Jn 4:9–10.

2:1 But there were also false prophets among the
people, even as there will be false teachers among
you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,
even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on
themselves swift destruction.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Pe 2:1.

2:1 But there were also false prophets among the
people, even as there will be false teachers among
you, who will secretly (by God’s decree) bring in
destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who
ordained them to deny the Lord who only bought
some, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 2 Pe 2:1.
Primary or Secondary Issue?

Is God’s character and how He works in salvation a primary issue or a high secondary
issue? I think we all can say that Who God is, is a primary issue, at least we want it to
be a primary issue. The Christian’s desire to know their Lord and Savior more and
more should be present and active in their lives. We should strive to know God more
and more as we grow in sanctification and knowledge of the Word! However, to know
all of Who God is is impossible for our finite minds to grasp. And so this question I
think is not the best question to answer the contention of is calvinism a false gospel?

We all would agree that a false gospel does not save.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different
gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to
you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you
have received, let him be accursed.
The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ga 1:6–9.

Is Calvinism a False Gospel?
Yes & No
2 Major Forms of Calvinism

Deterministic/Fatalistic Calvinist Compatiblistic Calvinist
God decrees all things, even the
sin we all commit for his glory What God decrees from eternity
past, man freely chooses in time
and how those 2 work together
are a mystery; it’s confluence
God ordaining/decreeing all
things literally means all things (including the sin we all commit)
God is not the author of sin, but can use our sin for His
purposes; man freely chooses his own sin
Logically Consistent Appeals to Mystery
i.e. not logically consistent

I can go on and on-

J.

 

[Johann]

@Red Baker
2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, - Romans 9:2-3



Question to ponder: What is Paul's heart toward his fellow kinsmen who are not saved and does it reflect your heart toward those in your life who are not saved?



Follow up question: Does Paul's heart here reflect the heart of God?



Answer: If your answer is no, may I challenge you with a follow up question; Does Paul care more about the lost than God? When Paul writes about having "great sorrow and unceasing grief" over them is Paul in error or does he hurt more than God over the lost? Does God not care about them as much as Paul? Absurd! I would argue the answer to the latter question is a resounding yes! (Isa. 53:10, Matt. 26:39, 42, 44, 1 Cor. 11:1, John 3:16-17, Rom. 5:5-8, 1 John 4:8, 16, 19). I ask this because many enter this chapter having made the error that Romans 9 is all about salvation and in so doing they conclude that God doesn't want all men saved. This is an absurd notion and largely in conflict with what the bible says about God and God's desire for all to be saved (Eze. 18:23, 32, Isa. 53:6, 2 Pet. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, Luke 15:7, John 1:7, 9, 3:16, 12:2, Heb. 2:9, Luke 2:10, Acts 3:26, 10:34-35, 17:30, 1 John 2:2, 4:10).


4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. - Romans 9:4-5



Paul, in reflecting what he said earlier in Romans 3:1-2, acknowledges God's word to the Israelites and affirms it's validity and does so in detail naming seven things which belonged to them through that high position (again without quoting each old testament verse assuming if his reader has an objection then that same reader would have common knowledge of these Old Testament scriptures). Paul who has been contending for the gospel is equally contending that the Old Testament attested to it as being the plan all along. Therefore Paul doesn't dodge God's word but rather fully acknowledges it and enters into it which again is why Romans is so heavily laden with Old Testament passages.



"To whom belongs the adoption as sons" God adopted the nation of Israel. In Exodus 4:22 the Lord said to Pharoah 'Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My firstborn." Israel had a national relationship with God. "The glory" Israel was the nation where God placed His glory in their temple and likewise in the temple of Jerusalem after it was built. God also led the Israelites by His glory in the pillar and by the glory in the cloud which covered the tabernacle. "The covenants" God made the covenant with Abraham which circumcision was meant to be a sign of, that Abraham and his descendants would be blessed and that the world would be blessed through him (Gen. 12:3, 22:18), ultimately referring to Christ (Gal. 3:16). There was the Mosaic covenant which was the giving of the Law. There is also the New Covenant God recorded in Jer. 31 which Jesus fulfilled (Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25) which Paul is arguing is for them, remember "to the Jew first and then also the Greek" (Rom. 1:16). The Gentiles are brought in through extension but this covenant was made to Israel. "The giving of the law" the Law was intended for good and was meant to result in life (Rom. 7:10, 12), and therefore it was a blessing to Israel. No other nation was given the law so as to protect them. "The temple service" this term "service" also means worship. Israelites were blessed by being permitted to worship before God and serve Him in a way that would be pleasing to Him. "Promises" this is a blanket term covering the many things God promised to Israel. Interestingly these covenants and promises were given to the Israelites but not for those blessings to remain only with the Israelites, that is, those who are Israelites according to the flesh.



But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; - Romans 9:6



Question: Who would most likely be prone to thinking the word of God has failed here, a Jew or a Gentile and why?



Answer: A Jew, since the gentile would have no reason to feel the word of God has failed having not had that word previously. Paul is addressing Jewish readers.



Jews may be struggling at this point as to why not all of Israel has accepted Jesus if He is indeed the Messiah, in their minds if Jesus is the Messiah then the promises made to Israel who has largely rejected Jesus have fell flat. Paul is arguing that is NOT the case as if God has changed and that His promises are no good or have come to an end. Paul after affirming these promises then shifts the readers gaze not on the promises, but rather on who is the true benefactor of these promises and then proceeds to show them exactly who that is according to the Old Testament teachings by first ruling out who it is not.



7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” - Romans 9:7



"Through Isaac your descendants will be named". This rules out claiming Abraham as their father as a right of passage as many were doing in those days (John 8:39, Luke 3:8). Abraham had another son Ishmael and when Sarah died and Abraham remarried he had 6 other boys (Gen. 25:1-2). The Jews knew it was through Isaac that the descendants would be named so to credit Abraham's fleshly lineage would likewise credit Ishmael and Abraham's other sons to be included which they are not. To make the claim of Abraham is to say the promise through Isaac is made void. Paul in quoting God's promise to Abraham is showing that not everyone who is born in Abraham's lineage are descendants thus reaffirming his claim that not all are Israel who are descendants according to the flesh because God elected it by way of promise to be through Isaac.



8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” - Romans 9:8-9



Paul is making it clear that it is not children who are children of Israel according to the flesh but they are children who are so according to the promise which was first made to Abraham. Israel was a nation; Paul is showing here that this promise wasn't applicable to the nation of Israel as a whole as many Jews then and even today believe. Rather Paul shows them this ancient truth can be verified from what is written in the OT when it writes "through Isaac your descendants shall be named" thus disqualifying the nation of Israel as a whole according to their genetics. Therefore a Jew, even according to their own teachings, cannot claim their lineage as a qualifier of salvation and that's Paul's point here, that it's not according to the flesh but it's according to the promise.



Question: A question that may creep up as you learn this is, could genetics play a part if the lineage was through Isaac? We're clear now that it's not about being linked to Abraham but could it be about genetics if you're linked to Isaac? What about those who are descended from that lineage? Paul continues...



10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9:10-12



"And not only this" in other words in the same way it wasn't according to genetics with Abraham, neither is it with Isaac and his wife Rebekah's kids Jacob & Esau. Rebekah was pregnant with twins who hadn't even been born yet, and God said the younger of the two, Jacob, was chosen (or elected) even before birth which tells you that the promise is not a birthright through Isaac's descendants either. If that were the case then the promise would have applied to both twins but as it were it was only established from Isaac to Jacob and therefore not by fleshly inheritance but by God's choice.



The word "choice" here in the NASB is seen in some translations such as the ESV as "election". This is not the same as the Calvinist doctrine of election but rather it means choice or as the original Greek word "eklogé" used here it means "a selection".



Paul often speaks in tough love and will hammer points home. First showing lineage to Abraham is debunked and now in like fashion showing lineage to Isaac is debunked. "not yet born and had not done anything good or bad". Paul is now driving home his points made back in Romans 2 - 4, which he revisits in the verses to come, namely that it's also not on the basis of works as the twins had not yet even been born therefore they could not have been qualified by doing something good nor disqualified by doing something bad as there hasn't yet been such opportunity for them. Paul continues holding to the Old Testament teaching that it is by God's choice, God's promise, and not by our lineage nor by our performance or lack thereof.



Question: Are Romans 9 verses 10 - 12 about salvation? Was "election" or "choice" here about salvation?



Answer: No. If they are about salvation then we'd have to conclude that God is choosing Jacob's descendants to be saved and Esau's descendants to be condemned, the very notion that Paul just spent the first 12 verses defusing. As gentiles we often make everything about salvation, here is not about salvation but about the carriers of the promise. In other words if God was speaking of electing individuals to heaven or hell then nobody in Esau's lineage made it and everyone in Jacob's lineage did.

This is about God's election of Jacob to establish His new covenant which Jesus is the fulfillment of (Luke 22:20, 1 Cor. 11:25). Jesus's mission was often about salvation and we as gentiles see that and wear those glasses as we read other verses and we come to Romans 9 with our presuppositions making it the same thing.

It's not. Right now Paul is arguing that promise is according to God's choice and he's debunking those that may think it's by lineage or by works. So as we continue understand these verses are not about salvation but rather God's election in bringing about the Seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16).

Romans Chapter 9 - An In-Depth, Non-Calvinist Interpretation

A verse by verse encouraging exegete of Romans 9 that maintains a high view of God's sovereignty yet respects the character of God as seen in Jesus.

graceprovoked.org

J.

 

[Red Baker]

You think I misunderstood you RB...but I didn't because you are ONCE AGAIN stating that THE ELECTION has to do with salvation.

NO.

Romans 9 is not speaking about salvation and especially not on an individual basis.
Fran,

That's why I included you in one of my last post, so you can follow along with this discussion. I'm laboring to prove that Romans nine, where Paul goes into minute details concerning God's sovereignty, in the salvation of men, and the reason why he choses some and not others.

If there be some whom God has elected unto salvation (2nd Thess. 2:13), and he did, there must be others who are not elected unto salvation. If there are some that the Father gave to Christ (John 6:37), and he did, there must be others whom He did not give unto Christ. If there be some whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27) by the determined council of God, and there are, there must be others whose names are not written there, by the same determining council, that he purposed within his own will for his own glory. That this is the case we shall fully prove in the forth coming posts.

 

[Red Baker]

Part one of two

Let me share a testimony from an old saints.......... btw is still living very close to 100 years old, I saw him back in the fall. Here is his testimony.

Bible Discoveries:​

“They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.” Isaiah 29:24​

​

We are thankful to Almighty God to provide this testimony of Roland C. Crosby, who converted from Arminianism to the true gospel of God’s free and sovereign grace in 1984-1986. Brother Crosby finished his graduate seminary study in 1956 and pastored several Arminian Baptist churches in Michigan, USA from 1956 to 1985.​

"After many years as a Baptist pastor, the Lord challenged me by His Spirit to carefully review what the Bible taught regarding the doctrine of salvation. Previously, like most of the independent Baptist pastors that I had known, I had believed that a sinner obtained eternal life by receiving Jesus Christ as his personal savior. But over time and through much study the Lord taught me the truth about His great salvation. He graciously revealed to me that eternal life is not obtained by fulfilling any condition like accepting Christ as savior. Rather, eternal life is God’s free gift that He gives to whomever He chooses without any involvement by the sinner.

This God-given, free-gift salvation is commonly known as Sovereign Grace. It is termed sovereign because it is the unconditional work of God alone (John 1:13, Rom 9:13-16). It is gracious because it is based on the grace and mercy of God whereby He generously bestows eternal life to rebellious sinners who are totally undeserving of His kindness (Eph 2:8-9). Grace greatly magnifies the glory of God and guarantees that “no flesh should glory in His presence” (I Cor 1:29, 31). While God’s gracious salvation is free to sinners, it cost the death of His only begotten Son on the cross of Calvary.

The following Bible discoveries are key points of Scripture the Lord revealed to me as He taught me the glorious truth of His sovereign grace in the salvation of sinners.

1. The Total Depravity of the Sinner: One of the first discoveries that the Lord showed me from Scripture was that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, has neither the ability nor the desire to please God or come to Jesus Christ. Much to my surprise, this biblical truth was clearly set forth in The London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1643. The confession stated: “God’s free and special grace” saves a sinner who is “wholly passive therein.” I was amazed at how modern confessions of faith had departed from the biblical position of my Baptist forefathers. The same Confession further stated that the Bible taught the total inability of a sinner to will or do anything accompanying salvation (Chap 8:8; 9:3-4; 10:2 above confession).

My personal Bible study confirmed exactly what the confession stated. I found that a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1,5), cannot, of himself, cease from sin to do righteousness (Job 14:4; Jer 13:23; Mt 7:18), receive or understand God’s truth (1 Cor 2:14; 1:18), see or enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5), come to Christ (John 6:44, 65; 3:20) receive Christ of his own accord (John 1:11; 3:27; 8:43) or receive the Holy Spirit who regenerates the heart (John 14:17; Tit 3:5).

I also discovered that a sinner will not come to Christ on his own (John 5:40) or seek after God of his own accord (Ps 10:4, 14:2-3; Rom 3:11). The sinner’s inability and unwillingness to come to Christ establishes the necessity for God’s sovereign grace in his life if he is to be saved.

2. How Regeneration Differs From Conversion: As I continued re-studying the Bible doctrine of salvation, I discovered the clear distinction between regeneration and conversion. Most today miss this critical distinction, using these two terms interchangeably, not realizing that they are two very different processes in Scripture.

Regeneration (Tit 3:5) means life is created. It is also referred to as being born again (John 3:5), a quickening (Eph 2:1), a creation (Eph 2:10), a begetting (Jam 1:18) and a resurrection (John 5:25). Regeneration is the work of God whereby He supernaturally gives a dead sinner spiritual life by imparting to him a new heart and spirit. Regeneration requires divine action, denies any human ability, and shows sinful man to be totally passive.

Conversion, on the other hand, means to change belief or purpose. Jesus said the apostle Peter would be converted (Luke 22:32) after he denied the Lord. Peter had not lost his eternal salvation, but he needed to change his behavior. Even a Christian brother must be converted when he has fallen into sin (Jam 5:19). From these and other examples in Scripture I discovered that conversion is any step of obedience and spiritual growth in the life of a born-again child of God.

Regeneration, as the Bible declares it, is strictly the work of God in the life of a dead sinner whereby that sinner is called to spiritual life by the power of God. Conversion, however, is greatly dependent on the diligence of the born-again child of God. Regeneration is a one-time act of God in which He gives the dead sinner spiritual life to become a son of God. Conversion is the on-going, life-long process of spiritual growth that occurs in the lives of all born-again children of God by which they strive to conform themselves to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. Conversion may be hardly evident in the lives of some of God’s children (Lot) or may be fully demonstrated in the lives of a few (Apostle Paul).

I once erred, as do many, by applying conversion commands to those dead in sins as conditions for how they could obtain spiritual life. Now I understand that the many conversion commands in Scripture to repent and believe the gospel are only meant for the born-again children of God who already have the God-given ability and will to obey the gospel commands and come to Christ.

3. Conversion Lessons From the Acts of the Apostles: As a further step in my renewed review of the doctrine of salvation, I carefully studied through the Book of Acts. One thing that really stood out to me is what the apostles were challenging their hearers to do. I noted that apostolic preaching exhorted those who believed to repent and be baptized, to save themselves from this untoward generation, and to repent and be converted (Acts 2:38, 40; 3:19). Repentance, I saw, is one step of conversion which means to change one’s mind toward God. Repentance and conversion were needed for Peter’s hearers since they had killed Jesus through ignorance (Acts 3:17).

While I saw many such exhortations to repentance and conversion in the Book of Acts, I did not see any invitations by the apostles for their hearers to accept Christ as savior in order to be born again. It began to dawn on me that the apostles knew well what I was only beginning to see, that until a person was born again by the supernatural power of God, he had no ability or interest in believing the gospel and following Jesus Christ.

This incredibly important point was summarized perfectly in Acts 13:48b, “And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” This verse clearly stated what I was seeing in the Acts. The only ones who ever believed the gospel and followed Jesus Christ were those who had already been ordained by God to eternal life and who had already been born again by the Spirit of God. Now I understood. The apostles were exhorting to repentance and conversion those among their hearers who had already been born again and thus possessed the spiritual life and ability to hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

Part 2 of 2

4. Certain Verb Tenses Prove That Regeneration Precedes Conversion: As I had already learned, except a man was born again (regeneration) he could not and would not come to Christ and believe the gospel (conversion). Regeneration was necessary before conversion was possible. This fact was proved to me in a unique way by noting the verb tenses in some familiar verses. Two good examples are John 5:24 and I John 5:1.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life”

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.”

The verb “believeth” in these two verses is present tense, pointing to action taking place in the present. However, the verbs “is passed” and “is born” are present perfect tenses, pointing out actions which were completed in the past with the effects continuing in the present.

What the tenses of these important verses taught me is that the person who presently believes the gospel has already been born again and has already passed from death unto life. Thus a person’s believing the gospel is the evidence that God has already regenerated him, rather than the conditional means of his being born again.

5. The Word “Salvation” in the Bible can apply to Conversion as well as Regeneration: Another area on which I focused my study was the many Bible verses which use some form of the word “save.” Through careful comparisons I discovered that the Bible has numerous meanings for the words “save”, “saved”, and “salvation.” Many today think that every time they come across a form of the word “save” in Scripture, the subject under consideration must be the eternal salvation of a sinner. Often this is not the case.

First, the word “save” simply means “deliver.” When one encounters this word in Scripture, the first question that must be asked is, what deliverance is under discussion? Is it natural or eternal? Is it physical or spiritual? And further, is it a salvation that relates to the work of God alone or is it a salvation that relates to conversion which emphasizes man’s responsibility. I found that making these distinctions was critically important.

For example, Titus 3:5 teaches that God saves us in regeneration “according to his mercy.” Notice that the salvation of regeneration (being born again) is the work of God alone. Jesus likened the salvation of regeneration by the Spirit of God to the wind blowing wherever it wants to. Even as we cannot control the wind in any way, so the sinner cannot control or direct the Spirit in the act of regeneration (John 3:1-8).

On the other hand, James 5:20 teaches that the brother “which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” The salvation in this verse is referring to the help that one brother offers another in converting him from his sin. This salvation is not eternal life. It is deliverance from error and the practice of sin during this life. See also I Tim 4:16.

So we see that whenever we run across the word “save”, “saved”, or “salvation” in Scripture, we must carefully determine what salvation is under consideration. Is it salvation that God alone gives to the sinner; or is it a practical deliverance that man achieves by being converted himself or by converting others to a closer walk with God.

6. The Role of Faith in Eternal Salvation: For many years I believed and taught that faith played a critical role in the eternal salvation of sinners. Unless a person exercised his faith by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal savior from sin, that person could not be saved. But the Lord showed me that faith was not the key to a person’s salvation as I had long thought.

While many today teach, just like I did at one time, that faith is a special instrument whereby grace is activated in the work of salvation, I rather discovered the Bible identifies faith as a work (John 6:28-29), a part of the law (Mt 23:23), a commandment of God (1 John 3:23) and an act of obedience to God (Rom 16:26).

And, of course, we know that the Bible clearly teaches that eternal salvation is not obtained by performing works (Tit 3:5), by keeping the law (Gal 2:16), or by fulfilling any condition or requirement (Rom 9:16, John 1:13). The gift of eternal life is based only on the free grace of God through Jesus Christ. God gives eternal life to whomever He chooses based only on His own will and choice. Man is totally inactive in his own eternal salvation. The faith of a sinner is not the condition, instrument, or means of his obtaining eternal life.

Furthermore, I discovered that faith is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9), a fruit of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:22), and is born of God (I John 5:4). From these and other verses I learned that faith only comes from God and can only be seen in the lives of born again children of God. Natural men, those dead in trespasses and sins, do not have faith (II Thess 3:2).

And so I came to understand that faith cannot be the means whereby a dead sinner comes to Christ and gains possession of eternal life. Faith is a demonstration of the Spirit of God in the life of a born again child of God. Rather than being a condition whereby the sinner comes to Christ, faith is a proof or evidence that a person has already been born-again and is already in possession of eternal life. The sense of Scripture is that if a man believes on Jesus Christ, he already has eternal life.

7. The Words “All Men,” “Every Man,” and “World” in the Bible Usually Do not Refer to the Entire Human Race: For many years I have heard that these words prove that God loves and offers eternal salvation to the entire human race. For example, I once heard a popular pastor teach his flock, “All means all, and that’s all all means.” He was referring to verses like I Tim 2:4 and I Tim 4:10. He was teaching that God loves and Christ has died equally for every member of Adam’s fallen race.

But the Lord showed me by the plain statements of Scripture that God does not love all men equally and Christ did not die for all men. First, I learned that God hates the wicked (Ps. 5:5; 11:5; 10:3). God hates all the wicked apart from those whose sins are covered by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Second, I learned that Jesus Christ did not die for all the human race, but that He died for His people (Matt 1:21), His sheep (John 10:11), those the Father had given to Him (John 10:27-29, 17:2), and His church (Eph 5:25).

Based on these passages, when we come across verses that seem to suggest otherwise, we should know immediately that God does not love all men equally and that Jesus Christ only died for a specific segment of the human race.

Words like “all,” “every,” and “world” in the Bible are often limited by their context. Take for example Luke 2:1, “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” This verse includes two of the very popular words that many use today to teach that God loves and Christ died for every single person (all & world). But notice in this verse how the context severely limits these two words. “All the world” only refers to the Roman world of that day. This verse does not even refer to all living men of that time for there were large parts of the earth that were not included in that Roman world that was taxed. And that “world” certainly did not include anyone alive today. So we can clearly see from this example that “all the world” actually referred to only a small subset of the entire human race.

This is a good example of the verses that the Lord used to teach me that the words “all,” “every,” and “world” are usually greatly limited by their biblical context. One must carefully study beyond the bare sound of a word to determine what group of men is actually being considered in a particular verse. It is not nearly enough to simply read a verse and assume that because the verse includes “all”, “every”, or “world” that it is referring to the entire human race.

I humbly and reverently thank God my Savior for His sovereign grace. He commanded life to me when I was spiritually dead. He called me to obedience through the preaching of the gospel. He rejoices my soul with the marvels of His love and the joy of salvation as I study and believe His word. He gives victory over temptations to evil and forgives my confessed sins. I find comfort, peace, and hope in believing His promise to soon come in power and great glory. I bring all my praise to Jesus the Christ Who loved me and gave Himself for me!"

Roland C. Crosby 1988

 

[Marvelloustime]

Look real closely at what you just wrote . Yes He is liberal indeed .
Now for a wake up call to all that has breath .
Interfaith finding common ground . DO you beleive it came of the conservative realm
Or of the progressive liberal realm .
ITS TOTALLY OF THE PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL realm .
Yet trump and vance and nar and others push this on the conservative one. THIS IS ALL A SNARE .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Marvelloustime]

If those who deny the diety of Christ are waiting for the day of the LORD
wherein all shall stand before HIM , to say to those who preached HE is alpah and omega , first and last ,that we were in error ,
MY ADVICE to them is DO not wait for that day , you wont be proved right and we will not be proved wrong .
YOU GONNA SEE HE WHO SAID i am alpha and omega , the first and the last , AND buddies , ITS TOO LATE ON THAT DAY , YE CALLED HIM
the LIAR .
JUST a real friendly but super needful reminder . man i shudder in total fear
for those who called CHRIST a liar . Total fear . For they called HE who said i am alpha and omega , first and the last ,
was dead but now alive , A LIAR . Callling GOD a liar , NOT GOOD . truly its NOT GOOD .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[GodsGrace]

@Jim @Johann @GodsGrace

Jim, This is the Apostle's second answer to the objection contained in the 19th verse, in which, by another reference to Scripture, he asserts that the thing formed ought not to contend with Him that formed it, who has a right to dispose of it as He pleases. The word here employed is variously applied as signifying authority, licence, liberty, right ; but in its application to God there can be no question that it denotes power justly exercised. The mere power or ability of doing what God pleases, cannot be the meaning, for this is not the thing questioned. It is the justice of the procedure that is disputed, and it is consequently the justice of this exercise of power that must be asserted. With respect to all other beings, the licence, liberty, or right referred to, may be, as it is, derived from a superior; but in this sense it cannot refer to God. When, therefore, it is said here that God has power, it must mean that He may, in the instance referred to, use His power in conformity to justice. The right has not a reference to a superior as conferring it, but a reference to His own character, to which all the actions of this sovereignty must be conformable.

Power, then, in this place, signifies right or power which is consistent with justice. It is this right or power according to justice that is here asserted. When the potter moulds the clay into what form he pleases, he does "nothing contrary to justice" ; neither does God do injustice in the exercise of absolute power over His creatures. Out of the same original lump or mass He forms, in His holy sovereignty, one man unto honour, and another unto dishonour, without in any respect violating justice. Here it is implied that as there is no difference between the matter or lump out of which the potter forms diversity of vessels, so there is no difference in mankind, Rom. iii. 22 ; all men — both those who are elected, and those who are rejected, that are made vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath~ are alike by nature in the same condemnation in which God might in justice have left the whole, but out of which in His holy sovereignty He saves some, while He exercises His justice in pouring out His wrath.

That we are al] in the hand of God, as the clay in the potter's hand, is humbling to the pride of man, yet nothing can be more self-evidently true. If so, God has the same right over us that a potter has over the clay of which he forms his vessels for his own purposes and interest.

replied to in post no. 81

The same figure as is employed by the Prophet Isaiah, in declaring the right that God had over him and all the people of Israel, God likewise employs, Jer. xviii. 6 : ' O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter ? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel.' A potter forms his vessels for himself, and not for his vessels. This determines the question with respect to God's end in the creation of man. Philosophers can discern no higher end in creating man than that of making him happy. But the chief end of the potter in moulding his vessels has a reference to himself, and God's chief end in making man is His own glory.

I'd love to understand how God sending most of humanity to hell give Him glory - but that's a topic for a different day.
The bible, full revelation in the NT by Jesus,,God Himself, seems to imply that God is love...but we'll leave this for now.

Romans 3:1-7
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
Who was entrusted with the oracle of God? The Jew.
And if some did not believe...will it nullify the faithfulness of God?
No. We read this also in
2 Timothy 2:13
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.
Again, we see that Paul is speaking of the Jews....a group of persons.
He is making the point that God will honor His promise of salvation to all even though
the unrighteousness of the Jews will demonstrate the righteousness of God through the gentiles.

God made Israel...a lump of clay...the Jews had grown hardened with legalism and religiosity.
Acts 28:
26 saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."'
28 "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen."
The Jews had always abandoned God and then returned to Him throughout the history of Israel.
God was patient with them...THE POTTER was merciful with them....
Romans 10:21
21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

This is plainly held forth in a multitude of passages in Scripture. Let man strive with his Maker as he will, still he is nothing but the clay in the hand of the potter.

If man is nothing but the clay in the potter's hand...
Why are we held responsible for our sins?
Did not the Potter decree us to sin when He spun us on His potter's wheel?

There cannot, indeed, be a question but that God will act justly with all His creatures ; but the security for this is in His own character, and we can have no greater security against God's power than His own attributes.

Excuse me RB...
What you state above is laughable, which is why those on the other side of the isle find Calvinism to be so negative.

HOW is God acting justly when He sends people to hell for no reason at all?
What is justice anyway? Have we lost its meaning?

HOW to we have security in a God that chooses persons to be saved based on nothing at all?
If He is a just God He would give to all the same opportunity.

The entire bible renders Romans 9 in a light that is NOT deterministic.

God will do His creatures no injustice ; but this is because justice is a part of His own character. Our security for being treated justly by God is in Himself.

Right. Because God is just....He will treat all the same....
He will not be a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
Romans 2:11
11For God shows no partiality.

One vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ~ Some endeavour to explain this as implying that certain vessels may be made for a less honourable use, while they are still vessels for the Master's service. But it is not said that they are made for a less honourable use, but that they are made to dishonour, is the Apostle's assertion. It is true, indeed, that even vessels employed for dishonourable purposes are useful, and it is equally true that the destruction of the wicked will be for the glory of God. If any are condemned at all, and on any ground whatever, it is certain that it must be for the glory of God, else He would not appoint it to take place.

How would this work?
The potter makes some vessels to carry His word to the world.
They become disobedient.
God cuts them off .... see Romans 11:11-23
But God still hopes to graft them back in.

God is having mercy on them.
Just like He had mercy on the Israelites that were wandering through the desert after
being freed from slavery.

On the verse before us, and the preceding, it is to be observed that the Apostle does not say that his meaning in what he had previously affirmed had been mistaken, and that he had not said that it was agreeable to the will of God that the hardness of men's hearts should take place as it does ; he implicitly grants this as truth, and that he had asserted it. And so far from palliating or softening down the expression to which the objection is made, if possible, he heightens and strengthens it. All mankind are here represented as originally lying in the same lump or mass; a great difference afterwards appears among them. We ask, where does this difference arise? The Apostle explicitly answers, It is God who makes the difference. As the potter makes one vessel as readily as he makes another, and each vessel takes its form from his hand, so God makes one man to honour and another to dishonour. And God's sovereign right to do this is here asserted ; and he who objects to this, the Apostle says, speaks against God. Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus ? This representation is entirely consistent with all that the Scriptures elsewhere teach. In the fundamental doctrine of regeneration, and the new creation in Christ Jesus, it is expressly inculcated, and is entirely coincident with the question, "Who maketh thee to differ from another ? " 1st Corinthians 4:7.

Jeremiah 18:1-10
1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying,
2 "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you."
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel.
4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased * the potter to make.
The clay was spoiled.
Does God make mistakes?
How did it spoil?
Sometimes the clary spoils on its own...
Spinners know this.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
6 "Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
Again, we see that Paul is speaking about the nation of Israel.
The Jews had a flaw in them. But certainly God did not make them like this. (But Calvinists believe He did).
Paul wants to remake these vessels into something He could use to graft in the Gentiles...
Perhaps the Jews would see the Gentiles being grafted in and become jealous and would want to return to God.
7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
God is saying the nation must turn from its evil...
IF they do this,,,God will relent on the calamity He planned to bring on it.
9 "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'

God is telling His "vessels" to turn back from their evil ways.
Something THEY MUST DO.
Throughout the bible God tell us what we must do.
Why give instruction if it's God that decrees what men do?

12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow * our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

Note that God is told that MAN is going to follow his own plan.
Each one will act according to his evil heart.

Sounds like free will...
even in Romans 9.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Looks like you're copying and pasting, which I don't do,,,but let's continue:

The potter and the clay.
God's sovereignty.
God can do whatever He wishes to do.
But is Paul speaking here about INDIVIDUAL pots?
Perhaps one pot is the Jews and one pot is the gentiles?
Perhaps pots means a GROUP of persons?

Let's assume that it means individuals.
So....does God make us into what we are and then decree every action of ours....
which makes us puppets in His hands .... (which Calvinists get upset when this is mentioned)
or
does God make these vessels for some kind of use?
Does the vessel have any say over how they're made?

2 Timothy 2:20-22
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Paul is making the same analogy as in Romans 9...using vessels as an example.
Note that there are different types of vessels.
Note that Paul says that they are to CLEANSE THEMSELVES from these things so that they could be made for honor and sanctified.
WE must do the cleansing.
WE have control over the vessel.
We are told to flee from lusts and pursue righteousness.

NEVER in scripture do I read that God will do for us....
but that WE MUST DO,,,that we must take action.

Paul will not conflict himself.

More on the Potter a little later.

soon the only commandment that will be taught
that will be accepted
by all religoins and even a ton of christendom
Will be . Just beleive in love and anyone who does love is of GOD .
but its twisted because it implies that all other religoins and even an athiest
if they are just loving , aka feeding the poor and etc
being all inclusive . WELL they are under the influence of GOD and okay .
I AM telling us this IS the goal . SOON you will hear more and more churches singing to it
as their new way to evangelize will NOT BE YE MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS , no it will be just believe in Love .
same song is being pumped into all false religoins as well . has been . The delusion Will merge
ALL of the decieved to come and to rest as one under the shade of what it believes IS LOVE and thus must be OF GOD .
What a lie . but watch and see . Watch and see .

 

[GodsGrace]

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

J.

J,,,,I see why you're posting a lot of links.
I'm no expert on Romans 9 but I believe I understand it well enough.
But I just realized how much time it takes and I don't have much time for here.
When I tell someone I'm willing to discuss it,,,they always deter from the conversation.
So I'm happy to speak to RB....but let's see what happens.
So, yeah, posting links might be helpful also for those reading along.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
View attachment 1475

soon enough that will be replaced with
he who denies love is anti christ and a hater . And believe you me its love sure as heck WONT preach what a real liar and anti christ is

 

[Johann]

J,,,,I see why you're posting a lot of links.
I'm no expert on Romans 9 but I believe I understand it well enough.
But I just realized how much time it takes and I don't have much time for here.
When I tell someone I'm willing to discuss it,,,they always deter from the conversation.
So I'm happy to speak to RB....but let's see what happens.
So, yeah, posting links might be helpful also for those reading along.

I'm strapped for time @GodsGrace-lots of power outs here in South Africa--hence the links.

Thanks.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's why I included you in one of my last post, so you can follow along with this discussion. I'm laboring to prove that Romans nine, where Paul goes into minute details concerning God's sovereignty, in the salvation of men, and the reason why he choses some and not others.

I'm happy to follow along and will do some posting too,
but I realized today that this takes really a lot of time.
I don't copy and paste and write every post from scratch so let's see how long I could continue
with the time I have available.

Re the above and how you're trying to prove that Romans is Paul going into minute detail concerning God's salvation of men and why He chose some and not others.

Paul is speaking to Jews and repeatedly brings up the Old Testament scriptures.
His Jewish audience knew why he was bringing up specific OT passages.
He was showing that God chose A NATION so that He could reveal Himself through that nation and those people....
Abraham, David, Isaiah, Jonah, etc.

If you start out believing what you've stated above...you will miss all of what Romans 9 is about.

For instance:
WHY did God choose some and not others,,,according to Romans 9?

It speaks about how disobedient Israel was...
He speaks about the nation repeatedly....I show this in my last post, no. 89

If there be some whom God has elected unto salvation (2nd Thess. 2:13), and he did, there must be others who are not elected unto salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Note what 2 Thes states:
1. Paul is giving thanks for the believers.
2. They are loved by our Lord.
3. God has chosen them from the beginning
4. FOR SALVATION
5. THROUGH SANCTIFICATION by the Spirit
and FAITH IN THE TRUTH.

It amazes me that the answer is right there but the reformed/calvinist do not see it.

God DID chose us from the beginning....
but for salvation?
NO.

The choosing of God is ALWAYS for PURPOSE or METHOD.
It's always HOW we get chosen or FOR WHAT.

2 Thes God chose us for salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION...
THIS IS THE HOW...THE METHOD.

By spirit and THE FAITH IN THE TRUTH.

God chose us because we would have FAITH IN THE TRUTH.
He gives THE REASON why we are chosen.
Calvinism teaches that we cannot know the reason why God chooses some and not others.

God always gives the reason because the NT was written so that we might believe and be saved.
Romans 1:15-17
15 So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
It tell us HOW.... Because God wants us to become saved. 1 Tim 2:4

If there are some that the Father gave to Christ (John 6:37), and he did, there must be others whom He did not give unto Christ. If there be some whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27) by the determined council of God, and there are, there must be others whose names are not written there, by the same determining council, that he purposed within his own will for his own glory. That this is the case we shall fully prove in the forth coming posts.

No Red...I cannot agree.
Calvinism has its own way to read every verse in the bible.
No other denomination reads these verses as they do.
Surely there must be a reason.

John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly * not cast out.
Where does the above say God chose some and not others?
It doesn't. You read into it.


It plainly states that the Father will give some to Jesus...and Jesus will not cast them out.
WHO DOES THE FATHER GIVE TO JESUS?
Those that listen to God.
Those that learn from God.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

As Jeremiah said:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

A person comes to beleive (Eph 2:8-9, Acts 31:16)
and God GIVES THEM TO JESUS for salvation...
Jesus is the Savior and who goes to Him will be raised on the last day.


Re Rev 21:27
Names can be deleted from the Book of Life.
But no more time....

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm strapped for time @GodsGrace-lots of power outs here in South Africa--hence the links.

Thanks.

J.

I watched that video you posted.
No elec in the evening.
It's difficult to understand why there can't be more elec available.
Those that don't experience these things cannot understand those that do.
It's just human nature.
It seems so easy when you have electricity all the time.
I was thinking some time ago....that if the electricity ever went totally black...
our very civilization would come to a dead stop.
Think of it....everything we do depends on power.
When do you think it'll go back on?
Seem like there's not much the govt can do.

 

[Johann]

I watched that video you posted.
No elec in the evening.
It's difficult to understand why there can't be more elec available.
Those that don't experience these things cannot understand those that do.
It's just human nature.
It seems so easy when you have electricity all the time.
I was thinking some time ago....that if the electricity ever went totally black...
our very civilization would come to a dead stop.
Think of it....everything we do depends on power.
When do you think it'll go back on?
Seem like there's not much the govt can do.

Absolutely right. We have a communist government, and the power outages are unpredictable. I don’t expect it to be restored anytime soon, not under state control.

Stay strong in the faith.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely right. We have a communist government, and the power outages are unpredictable. I don’t expect it to be restored anytime soon, not under state control.

Stay strong in the faith.

J.

Right. Socialism/communism is horrendous.
And to think that some dumb young folk seem to like it. (because they never tried it!).
'nuff said.
Good night...am closing down.

 

[GodsGrace]

soon the only commandment that will be taught
that will be accepted
by all religoins and even a ton of christendom
Will be . Just beleive in love and anyone who does love is of GOD .
but its twisted because it implies that all other religoins and even an athiest
if they are just loving , aka feeding the poor and etc
being all inclusive . WELL they are under the influence of GOD and okay .

Good point.
How many times have I said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A DEAD FAITH.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD WORKS.

I AM telling us this IS the goal . SOON you will hear more and more churches singing to it
as their new way to evangelize will NOT BE YE MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS , no it will be just believe in Love .
same song is being pumped into all false religoins as well . has been . The delusion Will merge
ALL of the decieved to come and to rest as one under the shade of what it believes IS LOVE and thus must be OF GOD .
What a lie . but watch and see . Watch and see .

 

[Johann]

Right. Socialism/communism is horrendous.
And to think that some dumb young folk seem to like it. (because they never tried it!).
'nuff said.
Good night...am closing down.

Buonanotte e dormi bene, sorella.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

Absolutely right. We have a communist government, and the power outages are unpredictable. I don’t expect it to be restored anytime soon, not under state control.

Stay strong in the faith.

J.

The Lord be with you Johann, so sorry for God's children living under such adverse conditions, it is so hard for me to even imagine.

Right. Socialism/communism is horrendous.
And to think that some dumb young folk seem to like it. (because they never tried it!).

Amen......Most are void of common sense, youth even more so....the reason being, it is just not that common any more!