Who was the Book of John Addressed to?
- Thread starter dwight92070
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@Johann
Before I start a few things I would like to bring up to help this study in answering your text that you have provided.
Establishing the Truth concerning problem texts provided against the truth.
We establish the truth by clear teaching, and then we reconcile all “opposing” verses to it. Which by God's grace help we shall do.Until we reconcile all the word of God on any subject, we cannot be sure of our doctrine. We have a great and true desire to be sure, that's one reason why we are here laboring. If a great change in presuppositions were needed for us to hold the truth, we trust the living God to convict and guide us, and we deal fairly with every text, by holy rules. We all should agree God owns all truth, and He gives it by His grace to those He chooses. So we all should humble ourselves under God's mighty hand that he may lift us up in due time. and he has promised to do so to those who humble themselves.
1. A truth clearly taught in the scriptures is: Eternal life is an unconditional gift by God’s grace and will in Jesus Christ for the elect only. Men not likening this truth is not my problem, it is their our duty is to defend truth and we shall. We are not seeking to be accepted or praise, but to be faithful to the scriptures is our only duty, leave the results in God's hand where they belong anyway.
2. Man is unable to obey or please God (Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:9-18; 8:7-8; Ephesians 2:1; Galatians 5:17). Is not a personal opinion of any man, but a truth taught clearly in the scriptures.
3. God denies man’s will or works (John 1:13; 3:8; Rom 9:15-16; Ephesians 1:5,11; Titus 3:5). When men quote John 1:12, they only quote half of the verse, verse 13 belongs to verse 12 and is its own commentary given freely by the Spirit of God for us to know the truth concerning the new birth.
4. Faith and works are the result of salvation (Ephesians 2:10; Philippians 2:12-13; Ist John 3:7; 5:1,4), not conditions.
5. Jesus Christ saves the elect by Himself (John 19:30; Romans 5:19; Hebrews 1:3; 9:15; Ist Peter 1:2).
6. The gospel and ordinances do not give life (Ist Corinthians 1:24; Gal 3:21; Ephesians 4:12; 2nd Timothy 1:10).
7. Unconditional salvation is illustrated (Luke 1:15; Acts 10:34-35; Romans 11:28; Ist Corinthians 10:1-5).
8. This doctrine glorifies God (Romans 4:2; 9:21-24; Ist Corinthians 1:29-31; Ephesians 1:5-6,11-12; 2:9).
Recognizing the Threat
None should disagree that the devil and his false teachers have corrupted the words of God from the very beginning. He questioned and altered God’s words to Adam and Eve for the first sin (Genesis 3:1-5). Jesus had to face the devil’s misapplication of Psalm 91:11-12 in the desert (Matthew 4:1-11). Paul declared that there were many already in his day corrupting scripture (2nd Corinthians 2:17). Paul told the Thessalonians to not be deceived even by forged epistles (2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3). Paul warned that the last days would be filled with Christian creeps (2nd Timothy 3:6-9; 4:3-4). Peter wrote about unlearned and ignorant men wresting Paul’s words (2nd Peter 3:15-16). Paul, Peter, and Jude wrote of other false teachers (Titus 1:10-11; 2nd Peter 2:1-3; Jude 1:4).Please consider: The Bible is written in such a way to confuse men about doctrine unless they come humbly. Consider why Jesus spoke in parables – in order to confuse His hearers (Matthew 13:10-17)! When reject the truth, God sends them strong delusion to believe a lie (2ndThessalonians 2:9-12)! God sent lying spirits to Ahab and lying prophets to Israel (Ist Kings 22:19-23; Ezekiel 14:1-10)!
The Bible is not written as clearly as it could be ~ far from it: it is written with infinite wisdom and holy judgment to reveal truth to some and hide it from others.
Consider: Jesus had to deal with problem texts being thrown at him by different Jewish denominations. The Pharisees confronted Him with Moses’ provision for divorce (Matthew 19:3-12). The Herodians confronted Him about the legality of taxes to Caesar (Matthew 22:15-22). The Sadducees confronted Him with Moses’ rule for childless widows (Matthew 22:23-33). The scribes and Pharisees confronted Him with Moses’ law for adultery (John 8:1-11).
Consider some obvious examples by Rome and her daughters that are easily discerned. These few examples are adored by millions, have thousands of pages written about them, are sworn to by seminary professors, and preacher/priests are ordained to teach them. If you ran into a sharp Jesuit, Campbellite, or SDA, many would find their faith shaking!
The pope and his dupes are certain they fully eat Jesus Christ (Matthew 26:26; John 6:54-56). What spiritual ignorance!
The Alexander Campbell churches of Christ adore and practice baptismal regeneration as their sacred cow (Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Galatians 3:27). Others are like them, some of which are on this forum.
The Seventh Day Adventists have hundreds of verses “proving” their use of Saturday as the Sabbath of God (Gen 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Acts 17:2). Men like @ Studyman of this forum are their first cousin.
Consider: Every word of God is to be carefully considered to reject sound bites for the sense instead. True preaching is reading God’s words very distinctly and giving the true sense (Nehemiah 8:8). Most corruption of the Bible is based on sound bites, especially Catholics and Arminians.
Every word of God is pure and we are to live by every one of them (Proverb 30:5; Luke 4:4). Jesus and Paul argued doctrine from single words, showing us the care we should pay to each word ourselves (Matthew 22:32,43; John 8:58; 10:35; Galatians 3:16; 4:9; Hebrews 8:13; 12:27).
Some accuse us of having to work too hard in the Bible to prove our point. They are fools. Peter, an apostle, said Paul’s writings were difficult and confused many (2nd Peter 3:15-16). These scorners are like the wicked Jews who rejected the prophets (Isaiah 28:9-13; 29:20-21). Bible study is a laborious task for a true workmen of Jesus Christ (Ist Timothy 4:13-15; 2nd Timothy 2:15).
Please: Read Acts 2 and Romans 15 and Hebrews 1 to see men of God (peter, Paul and others) collating many verses.
Now we are really of reconciling your so-called problem text for those who have and know the truth.
The context in which these words are spoken is so important for us to correctly understand what Paul is saying. But, most love sound bites over teh true sense of the text under consideration.
Interpretations must agree with their context.
Remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; learn to spot it.- A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.
- Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.
- Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.
- A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.
Most of us have had our words used out of context before, and we hated the corruption of our intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.
This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.
Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee! Even if you use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. Mark it!
Okay, I'm ready and this will go much faster moving forward since the foundation has been lay properly ~ a much needed foundation.
1st Timothy 2:1-4
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; "that" we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."Paul telling Timothy that our prayer should be made for such men as kings (President Trump) yea, all that are in authority, and he tells why we should do this, not to get them born again, but for our peace and tranquility. Also, it is very true, that God has not limited his salvation from sin and condemnation to the mean (lower class, uneducated, poor folks, etc.) but he also will have a type folks to come unto the knowledge of the truth..... a few of those in authority, and high places though "not many" 1st Corinthians 1:26-31.
I can do no better than to quote John Gill's commentary which is worthy to be read by all lovers of the truth. Emphasis are mine~RB
@Johann @GodsGrace
Peter addressing evil scoffers mocking the Lord's promise of coming again, these evil men walking after their own wicked lust, Peter warns them that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, but is perfectly carrying out his eternal purposes ~ The Lord timely of not coming as of yet, is due to the truth, that God is long suffering to usward, not willing that any of the USWARD would perish, but that each and every one (the all in this verse that should come to repentance) that He had purposed to show mercy will come to repentance, or to be born again.
The fact still remain that when the Lord come again he shall first gather together his elect that are in the four winds of heaven and the rest will be left here to perish when this world shall be destroyed by fervent heat.
Matthew 24:40,41
“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Quickly, who are the usward?
2nd Peter 1:1-3
“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:”These are the very ones God is being longsuffering toward, until all of the rest of the very elect are born again, He will not come........... of that day and hour, no man knows, we only can see the season it which we seem to be fully in living in, and we are convinced that the Lord's coming is nearer than we all may think, just that the day and hours are hidden from us, even from the angels in heaven.
This scripture has not one thing to do with God not willing that any none of the lost should perish, because some were ordained to condemnation, by the very fact that they were not chosen, just as many of the angels were not. God's will is perfectly on course, just as he ordained it to be~it could not be otherwise, or he is a defeated God, which we know otherwise, that he in his times will............
1st Timothy 6:15
“Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;”To be honest with all who read this, before the Lord, and my own heart, this is one of the very best scriptures that even come close of proving God's will concerning wicked men, but it must flow in agreement with all scriptures in some sense.
Without question, it shows that God delights in mercy more than he does in the destruction of the wicked, that cannot be denied or rejected without doing injustice to God's word, and that I do not desire to even attempt to do, just to protect any agenda, or any teachings/doctrines that I may have come to embrace, God forbid, and I say this in all sincerity, with God being my witness. That being said.....
This is to be understood not absolutely; for the Lord does and "must" take pleasure in these things, as they fulfil his word, secure the honour of his truth and holiness, and glorify his justice, and especially when they are the means of reclaiming men from the evil of their ways; but comparatively, as follows:
and not that he should return from his ways, and live? That is, it is more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins, and forsake his vicious course of life, and enjoy good things, than to go on in his sins, and bring ruin on himself, here and hereafter.
Since man is unable by nature to do this on his own power, God knowing the end from the beginning, purpose to do this for some, (before any had done any good or evil ~ Romans 9:11) not all, which many others scriptures will support.
@Johann @GodsGrace
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”The next one in order as you gave them, Johann ~ and probably the easiest one to explain, which I did to four of the grandchildren, with whom we have devotions with everyday, laboring to teach them the word of God, the four youngest out of 18. I did not go into depth, yet did have a few things to say, since one of them brought up a question that I had to use this verse to help them with their question. It is much easier to teach a clean mind which has not been corrupted with false doctrines and a mind that looks to a person they can trust to lead them in the right paths, out of love for their souls. with nothing to gain, but to see them live a life that would bring God's blessings and not his curses upon them.
In John 3, Jesus is speaking (context is king and will drive the interpretation for us) to a ruler of the Jews, named Nicodemus. John 3:16 is not a conational scripture, nor is it declaring God's love for every single person that has lived, is living, and will live ~ but one that is declaring a biblical truth found all throughout the NT:
God so loved the world. I ask you ~who did God confined his love to in the OT? It is very clear, Israel.
Deuteronomy 7:7,8
“The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."God did not love the Egyptians, or any other nation, only the children of Israel, and even among them only the children of his oath and promises.
Romans 9:8
“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”Yet, it was known among the known world at that times, God was teh God of the Hebrews, his temple was at Jerusalem where men went to worship.
Jesus is revealing a truth to us through Nicodemus first hand, that God's love is not confined to the nation of Israel, but he loves the Gentiles as well. The word world is to be understood as to means all without distinction, not, as you and other teach all without exception, for it is clear God made exceptions from the very beginning and still does. Do we have other scriptures that would support our understanding, yes indeed we do.
Besides Acts 10. and many scriptures through the NT revealing a mystery hidden in the OT, but revealed in the NT that the Gentiles are made partakers of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through Christ. So many we could consider, yet not now. For now consider:
Romans 3:29
“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”Without a question he was the God of the Jews only, but no more. For God so loved the world, meaning Jews and Gentiles!
Romans 9:24
“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”Romans 10:12
“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”There was a very distinct difference between Jews and Gentiles before the coming of Christ, but after His coming he broke down the middle wall of partition that was between Jews and Gentiles, for God so loved the world, Jews and Gentiles, and among each he has an elect people.
Ephesians 2:14
“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;”Enough on this point.
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Johann
Well-known member
This is not answering the verse I have quoted and you seem to be aware of the paradoxical and dialectical tension filled pairs in Scripture.
1) "But as many as received him," (hosoi de elabon auton) "Yet as many as received him," or took him, the Son of God, as the Savior of the world who was to come. To receive Him, Jesus Christ, is identical with "believing on His name," or "calling on the name of the Lord," Rom_10:9-10; Rom_10:13.
2) "To them gave he power," (edoken autois eksousian) "He gave (doled out) to them the right, privilege, or prerogative;” This power of privilege exists in the gift of "faith" that God offers to every convicted sinner, by which he may become a child of God, or be saved, through his willing, volitional acceptance of that Divinely offered gift of faith, and placing it in Jesus Christ, Eph_2:8-9.
3) "To become the sons of God," (tekna theou genesthai) "To come to be children of God," to become, come to be something that they had not been before --children of the Highest One, the trinitarian God. In salvation, God takes the initiative and works creatively, in convicting the sinner by the wooing of the Holy Spirit, opening his understanding by the spirit and the Word, to bring to bear a sense of guilt upon the sinner, and offers him the gift of faith. When placed, by the sinner's choice and volition in Jesus Christ, that faith becomes belief to salvation, for every believer, 1Jn_5:1; John3:16; John 3:18.
4) "Even to them that believe on his name:”- (tois pisteuousin eis to onoma autou) "To those who believe in his name," or trust in His authority, or His power to save. Those bearing the image of God (but children of the devil), may become children of God, "by faith in Christ Jesus," not by faith in Moses, the law, the church, baptism, or reformation, Gal_3:26; Rom_1:16; 2Pe_1:4-5.
Believe on (πιστευούσιν εἰς)
The present participle, believing, indicates the present and continuous activity of faith. The word is used by John, sometimes with the dative case simply meaning to believe a person or thing; i.e., to believe that they are true or speak the truth. Thus, to believe the Scripture (Jhn_2:22); believe me (Jhn_4:21); believe Moses, his writings, my words (Jhn_4:46). At other times with a preposition, εἰς, into, which is rendered believe in, or believe on. So here, Jhn_6:29; Jhn_8:30; 1Jn_5:10. See the two contrasted in Jhn_6:29, Jhn_6:30; Jhn_8:30, Jhn_8:31; 1Jn_5:10. To believe in, or on, is more than mere acceptance of a statement. It is so to accept a statement or a person as to rest upon them, to trust them practically; to draw upon and avail one's self of all that is offered to him in them. Hence to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is not merely to believe the facts of His historic life or of His saving energy as facts, but to accept Him as Savior, Teacher, Sympathizer, Judge; to rest the soul upon Him for present and future salvation, and to accept and adopt His precepts and example as binding upon the life.
Name (ὄνομα)
See on Mat_28:19. Expressing the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title. Compare Jhn_20:31.
Joh 1:11 He came ἦλθεν, to εἰς [His] τὰ own, ἴδια and καὶ [His] οἱ own ἴδιοι {did} not οὐ receive παρέλαβον. Him. αὐτὸν
Joh 1:12 But δὲ to αὐτοῖς all who ὅσοι did receive ἔλαβον Him, αὐτόν, to those τοῖς who believed πιστεύουσιν in εἰς His αὐτοῦ, - τὸ name, ὄνομα He gave ἔδωκεν the right ἐξουσίαν to become γενέσθαι, children τέκνα of God — Θεοῦ
Joh 1:13 [children] οἳ born ἐγεννήθησαν. not οὐκ of ἐξ blood, αἱμάτων nor οὐδὲ of ἐκ [the] will θελήματος of [the] flesh, σαρκὸς nor οὐδὲ of ἐκ [the] will θελήματος of man, ἀνδρὸς but [born] ἀλλ’ of ἐκ God. Θεοῦ
Joh_1:12 "But as many as received Him" This shows humanity's part in salvation (cf. Joh_1:16). Humans must respond to God's offer of grace in Christ (cf. Joh_3:16; Rom_3:24; Rom_4:4-5; Rom_6:23; Rom_10:9-13; Eph_2:8-9). God is certainly sovereign, yet in His sovereignty He has initiated a conditional covenant relationship with fallen humanity. Fallen mankind must repent, believe, obey, and persevere in faith.
This concept of "receiving" is theologically parallel to "believing" and "confessing," which denoted a public profession of faith in Jesus as the Christ (cf. Mat_10:32; Luk_12:8; Joh_9:22; Joh_12:42; 1Ti_6:12; 1Jn_2:23; 1Jn_4:15). Salvation is a gift that must be received and acknowledged.
Those who "receive" Jesus (Joh_1:12) receive the Father who sent Him (cf. Joh_13:20; Mat_10:40). Salvation is a personal relationship with the Triune God!
"He gave the right" This Greek term (i.e., exousia) can mean (1) legal authority or (2) right or privilege (cf. Joh_5:27; Joh_17:2; Joh_19:10-11). Through Jesus' sonship and divine mission, fallen mankind can now know God and acknowledge Him as God and Father.
"to become the children of God" The NT writers constantly use familial metaphors to describe Christianity: (1) Father; (2) Son; (3) children; (4) born again; and (5) adoption. Christianity is analogous to a family, not a product (ticket to heaven, fire insurance policy). Believers in Christ have become the new eschatological "people of God." As children we should reflect the Father's character, as did the "unique" (cf. Joh_1:14; Joh_3:16) Son (cf. Eph_5:1; 1Jn_2:29; 1Jn_3:3). What a shocking title for sinners (cf. Joh_11:52; Rom_8:14; Rom_8:16; Rom_8:21; Rom_9:8; Php_2:15; 1Jn_3:1-2; 1Jn_3:10; 1Jn_5:2; Hos_1:10 quoted in Rom_9:26; and 2Co_6:18).
It is also interesting that of the two Greek terms for children, one is always used of Jesus (huios), while the other (teknon, tekna) is used for believers. Christians are children of God, but they are not in the same category as the Son of God, Jesus. His relationship is unique, but analogous.
The word "church" (ekklēsia) does not appear in Mark, Luke, or John. They use family metaphors for the new dynamic individual and corporate fellowship of the Spirit.
"those who believe" This is a present active participle meaning "those who continue to believe." The etymological background of this term helps establish the contemporary meaning. In Hebrew it originally referred to a person in a stable stance. It came to be used metaphorically for someone who was dependable, loyal, or trustworthy. The Greek equivalent is translated into English by the terms ("faith," "believe," and "trust"). Biblical faith or trust is not primarily something we do, but someone in whom we put our trust. It is God's trustworthiness, not ours, which is the focus. Fallen mankind trusts God's trustworthiness, faiths His faithfulness, believes in His Beloved. The focus is not on the abundance or intensity of human faith, but the object of that faith. See Special Topics at Joh_1:7; Joh_2:23.
J
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My dear brother, you have just committed one of the most egregious accusations against God. You just went from why and/or how God chose Israel to God didn't love the Egyptians or any other nation, only the children of Israel. God did not say that. You did. You made an incorrect deduction.
Read Deuteronomy 7 again very carefully. There is a purpose to what God is instructing Israel concerning the eradication of the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and nowhere does it say that it is because He didn't love them. He did that to keep them from "turning away your sons from following me, to serve other gods" (v.4). There was, given God's omniscience, a reason and a need to protect Israel against such other peoples in order to bring the Messiah, Jesus, to earth as the redeemer for the world.
You have decided that if God doesn't save someone, then He must not love them. Or perhaps even worse, you have decided that God does not save them because He doesn't love them. The bible does not say that.
All of that is another incorrect assessment on your part. Here again, you have decided that the statement, "The word world is to be understood as to means all without distinction, not, as you and other teach all without exception.,,,", is applicable wherever and whenever you choose to use it to support your view of things. It is your inferred interpretation, not a biblical assertion.
None of that actually supports the point that you are trying to make, namely, that God loves only those He saves and saves only those He loves. That is a false accusation against God. And that comes from your false doctrine of unconditional election.
Johann
Well-known member
That's it?
All means all brother, but we know from experience that not pantas WILL be willing to be saved!
ὃς (hos) – Relative Pronoun, Nominative Singular Masculine
"Who" – Refers back to God (from 1 Tim 2:3), identifying Him as the subject.
πάντας (pantas) – Adjective, Accusative Plural Masculine
"All" – This is an adjective modifying ἀνθρώπους (humans/men), meaning "all" or "every" in the accusative plural (direct object case).
Without the article, πάντας can emphasize an unrestricted or general sense, potentially meaning "all kinds of people" rather than necessarily "every single individual."
ἀνθρώπους (anthrōpous) – Noun, Accusative Plural Masculine
"Humans" or "men" – The direct object of θέλει (wants/wills).
This term can refer to all of humanity but is sometimes contextually limited to a group within humanity (e.g., all in a particular class).
θέλει (thelei) – Verb, Present Active Indicative, 3rd Person Singular
"Is willing" or "desires" – Present active indicative form of θέλω (to will, to desire).
The present tense can indicate continuous or ongoing desire.
σωθῆναι (sōthēnai) – Verb, Aorist Passive Infinitive
"To be saved" – Aorist passive infinitive of σῴζω (to save, deliver).
The aorist tense indicates a simple or complete action (not necessarily time-bound), often conveying purpose or result when following θέλει.
καὶ (kai) – Conjunction
"And" – Links the two desired outcomes (salvation and knowledge of truth).
εἰς (eis) – Preposition
"Into" – Indicates direction toward a goal (movement into something).
ἐπίγνωσιν (epignōsin) – Noun, Accusative Singular Feminine
"On-knowledge" or "realization" – From ἐπίγνωσις (full or experiential knowledge).
Accusative case as the object of εἰς (into).
ἀληθείας (alētheias) – Noun, Genitive Singular Feminine
"Of truth" – Genitive singular form of ἀλήθεια (truth).
The genitive here indicates possession or definition (i.e., "knowledge of the truth" as its object).
ἐλθεῖν (elthein) – Verb, Aorist Active Infinitive
"To come" – Aorist active infinitive of ἔρχομαι (to come, to arrive).
Indicates the goal or purpose of the knowledge being sought.
Syntactical Analysis and Meaning
ὃς θέλει – "Who desires" (God as the subject).
πάντας ἀνθρώπους – "All men" (direct object of "desires").
σωθῆναι – "To be saved" (infinitive indicating purpose or result of God’s desire).
καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν – "And to come into the knowledge of the truth" (second infinitive phrase expressing the goal of salvation).
Transliteration: pantas
Morphology: Adj-AMP
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's no.: G3956 (πᾶς)
Meaning: All, the whole, every kind of.
The phrase "all men" (πάντας ἀνθρώπους) is in the accusative case, making it the direct object of θέλει ("desires/wills").
The use of πάντας without the article means it could be emphasizing "all kinds of men" rather than necessarily every single individual. This is NOT referring to the elect.
Thelei (θέλει) is in the present active indicative, suggesting an ongoing or general will of God rather than an absolute decree.
The aorist passive infinitive σωθῆναι ("to be saved") expresses the desired outcome rather than an inevitable result.
The phrase "into the knowledge of the truth" (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας) indicates a movement toward full understanding, linking salvation with knowledge.
1Ti_2:4
who desires all people -- God's will that we pray for all men, for God desires all people to be saved. cf. 2Pe_3:9.
Key of verse = all men, cf. vs 1, not for just an "elect" nation of Israel.
come knowledge of the truth -- Refers to hearing, understanding, believing, and committing one's self to following (obeying) the gospel message. It covers all aspects of conversion Rom_10:17; Heb_11:6; Luk_24:47; Heb_5:9;
Four arguments for universal prayer to the One True God -- 1Ti_2:5-6
1) One God for all men
2) One mediator for all
3) Availability of ransom for all
4) Paul's commission to the Gentiles - cf 1Ti_2:7
1Ti_2:4 "who desires all men to be saved" Believers are to pray for all people because God wants all people saved.
This was a shocking statement to the exclusivistic false teachers, whether Gnostic or Jewish, or more probably in the Pastoral Letters, a combination. This is the great truth about God's love for all mankind (cf. 1Ti_4:10; Eze_18:23; Eze_18:32; Joh_3:16; Joh_4:42; Tit_2:11; 2Pe_3:9; 1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_4:14).
This verse shows the imbalance of dogmatic, super-lapsarian, double-edged predestination which emphasizes God's sovereignty to the exclusion of any needed human response.
The stated truths of "five point" Calvinism, especially "irresistible grace" and "limited atonement," violate the covenant aspect of biblical faith.
It is improper to reduce God to a puppet of human free will, as it is also improper to reduce mankind to a puppet of divine will.
God in His sovereignty has chosen to deal with fallen mankind by means of covenant. He always initiates and structures the covenant (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65), but He has mandated that humans must respond and continue to respond in repentance and faith (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21).
Often the theological discussion of God's sovereignty (predestination) and human free will deteriorates into a proof-texting contest.
The Bible clearly reveals the sovereignty of YHWH. However, it also reveals that His highest creation, mankind made in His image, had been given the awesome personal quality of moral decision making. Humans must co-operate with God in every area of life.
The term "many" has been used to assert that God has chosen some (the elect) but not all; that Jesus died for some, not all. A careful reading of the following texts shows that these are used in a parallel sense!
Isaiah 53
Romans 5
1. "all" (Isa_2:6)
2. "many" (Isa_2:11-12)
1. "all" (Rom_2:18)
2. "many" (Rom_2:19)
A.T. Robertson, in his comprehensive A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, also addresses the term πάντες. Robertson notes that while πάντες can mean "all" or "every," its exact scope is context-dependent. He points out that the use of πάντες without the article may emphasize the collective whole, but it does not automatically equate to an all-encompassing universality without exception.
Robertson shows the importance of considering the surrounding textual and situational context to accurately interpret the term's intended range.
So keep in mind you mentioned context, so let's keep this in context!
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
RB...I went back to post 16...you and @Johann having this conversation.
I asked you to tag me in....thanks...but you've both said so much!
I want to say that I do agree with what Johann has been posting.
I'll just reply to the post below.
I would like to say this: There's another member here who defines himself as a Particular Baptist.
Now...to YOU that might mean something very specific because he does not like to be called reformed/calvinist.
HOWEVER,,,what you and he then go on to post are CALVINIST teachings.
Also, he uses the 1689 Confession, which I'm familiar with and which I DO consider to be reformed/Calvinist.
Maybe we could agree to be either on the side of Calvin or Arminius?
I don't know much about Arminius and I've been fighting being called that since I don't know what it is.
But it's a losing battle....so, would that make sense?
OK I don't know what Johann stated that you're replying to
BUT
You're saying that the above letter of Peter is referring to USWORD in that God is not willing that any of USWARD should perish....
So what happened to Perseverance of the Saints??
Of course, if you believe in Pof the S ,,,,you have to believe it here too.
Peter is speaking about those that ARE NOT SAVED YET.
Or Perseverance of the saints makes no sense in reformed theology.
Herein is the problem.
WHERE does scripture state that God PURPOSED those that will come to salvation?
Nowhere does scripture state that God predestinated anyone to salvation....
but always to METHOD or PURPOSE.
Pick any verse and this will be plain.
First of all, Matthew 24:40-41 is speaking about the rapture,,,,which is nowhere to be found inscripture.
One will be taken...the other left.
Jesus was speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in the coming near future.
MAYBE the one taken will be taken by a persecuting Roman soldier?
MAYBE the unsaved has nothing to do with this passage?
I wouldn't use this passage to prove anything since we'd have to debate the rapture first and this is not the topic.
So are we saved through the knowledge of Christ...
or
Because God picked some to be saved?
2 Peter 1:1-3 does not support the reformed faith.
We are saved through the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD AND OUR SAVIOR...THIS is how we have obtained precious faith.
NOT because God chose us.
Agreed. Jesus gives life to us.
I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE.
I COME TO BRING YOU A LIFE MORE ABUNDANT.
A JOY UNSPEAKABLE
etc.
Thanks for confirming double predestination RB.
Some reformed DENY this teaching...
but it is absolutely true, as you have stated above.
However, everything you state above flies in the face of
1 Timothy 2:3-5 HOW TO RECONCILE? The bible cannot contain conflict....
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Verse 4....God desires that all men be saved.
But there's a condition: We must believe to be saved.
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31
16Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
This sounds like God willed against His will.
Right.
God delights in mercy.
So why does He send most of humanity to hell and for His own good pleasure....
without even letting us know WHY?
Agreed.
So does God decree everything or not?
I hear that God decreed every little thing that happens to man.
I could post this from Calvin or from any of the Confessions if I need to.
But I think you know already.
So WHY would God decree some not to accept Him?
Oh for goodness sake RB...you want to get into Romans 9?
I'm willing if you are....but we would have to cut out all other talk and stick to that.
Romans 9:30 kills the Romans 9 argument....it plainly explains why some believed and some didn't and it wasn't by God's decree.
And are you saying that man cannot seek God on his own?
What do the following mean?
Hebrews 11:6
6.......for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Proverbs 8:17
17I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Matthew 7:7
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find;
Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
There are many more passages that state that we are to seek God.
Would God tell us to do something that He knows we are unable to do?
Is God playing tricks on us?
And please note verse 7 of Isaiah...
LET THE WICKED FORSAKE HIS WAY....
Sounds like it's an action we must take on our own...
returning to the Lord sounds like an action we must take on our own...
and AFTER we do this, God will have compassion on us.
Doesn't sound like anything God decreed.
Johann
Well-known member
Again-you are reading into the text.
3) "But is longsuffering to us-ward," (Greek alla makrothumei lis humas) "But is longsuffering or forbearing toward you," the "plural you", persons of His address -- in a restricted sense, His children of church affinity fellowship in the unnamed church addressed, 1Pe_2:5; 1Pe_2:9; 1Pe_2:17; 1Pe_5:1; 1Pe_5:3; 1Pe_5:13. In contrast with pending judgment on the scoffing unbelievers, God's goodness is here affirmed as certain for those who hold true to the promise of His coming, Psa_86:15; Isa_30:18.
4) "Not willing that any should perish." (Greek me boulomenos) "not purposing of His own or personal volition or will" (times apolesthai) anyone to perish, Eze_18:23; Eze_18:32; Eze_33:11.
5) "But that all should come to repentance." (Greek all pantes eis metanoian) "but all (men) unto repentance (I will) (Greek choresai) "to come" or "to be coming." God not only wills and purposes that men (all men) come to repentance, but also calls them thru the Word, church, and Spirit, Mar_1:14-15; Luk_13:3; Act_17:30-31; Rom_2:4-5; 2Co_7:11; 1Ti_2:4.
To us-ward. 'Aleph (') A, Vulgate, have [ di' (G1223) humas (G5209)] 'for your sake;' B C, 'toward you' [ eis (G1519) humas (G5209)].
Any - not desiring that any, even the scoffers, should perish, which would result if He did set give apace for repentance.
Come - `go and be received to repentance' [ chooreesai (G5562), go and find room for repentance] (cf. Greek, Mar_2:2; Joh_8:37).
"not wishing for any to perish" This is a Present middle (deponent) participle. God wants all humans to be saved (cf. Eze_18:23; Eze_18:32; Eze_33:11; Joh_3:16; Joh_4:42; Act_17:30; Rom_11:32; 1Ti_2:4; 1Ti_2:6; 1Ti_4:10; Tit_2:11; Heb_2:9; 1Jn_2:2).
Because all humans are made in His image for personal fellowship, He sent His Son to die so that all may respond to Him (cf. Rom_5:12-21). This is an important balance to theological systems which major on God's place in salvation, but minimize mankind's needed covenantal response. I have included my notes from 1Ti_2:4 (Vol. 9, p. 25) regarding this topic.
Notes from my commentary on 1Ti_2:4
2Pe_2:4 "who desires all men to be saved" Believers are to pray for all people because God wants all people saved. This was a shocking statement to the exclusivistic false teachers, whether Gnostic or Jewish or, more probably in the pastoral letters, a combination. This is the great truth about God's love for all mankind (cf. 1Ti_4:10; Eze_18:23; Eze_18:32; Eze_33:11; Joh_3:16; Act_17:30; Rom_11:22; 1Ti_2:4; 1Ti_2:6; 1Ti_4:10; Tit_2:11; Heb_2:9; 2Pe_3:9; 1Jn_2:2).
This verse shows the imbalance of dogmatic, super-lapsarian, double-edged predestination which emphasizes God's sovereignty to the exclusion of any needed human response. The stated truths of "five point" Calvinism, especially "irresistible grace" and "limited atonement" violate the covenant aspect of biblical faith.
It is improper to reduce God to a puppet of human free will, as it is also improper to reduce mankind to a puppet of divine will. God in His sovereignty has chosen to deal with fallen mankind by means of covenant. He always initiates and structures the covenant (cf. Joh_6:44; Joh_6:65), but He has mandated that humans must respond and continue to respond in repentance and faith (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21), as well as obedience and perseverance!
Often the theological discussion of God's sovereignty (predestination) and human free will deteriorates into a proof-texting contest. The Bible clearly reveals the sovereignty of YHWH. However, it also reveals that His highest creation, mankind, made in His image, had been given the awesome personal quality of moral decision making. Humans must co-operate with God in every area of life.
The term "many" has been used to assert that God has chosen some (the elect) but not all; that Jesus died for some, not all. A careful reading of the following texts shows that these are used in a parallel sense!
Isaiah 53
Romans 5
1. "all" (Isa_53:6)
2. "many" (Isa_53:11-12)
1. "all" (Rom_5:18)
2. "many" (Rom_5:19)
SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH's ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN
"for all to come to repentance" Notice the emphasis on "all," not just "some" (i.e., elect). Everyone is potentially elect in Christ. See SPECIAL TOPIC: REPENTANCE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT at Mar_1:4.
Bob Utley.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Amen to that!
The bible is not just a bunch of verses stuck together.
It's a complete thought.
It's the story of God's love for man.
God is sovereign, as we all believe, and is not afraid to give to man free will.
God wants our love to be freely given....just as we would want from the one we love....God made us in His image.
Co-operate.
Right.
God makes the first move...
man must respond.
God gives ever more grace...
man uses that grace.
You're more scholarly than I am...
but we agree.
Johann
Well-known member
Won't be able to correspond much @GodsGrace - we have stage 6 load shedding here in South Africa, no lights, no power.
We are a "third world country"
God bless and shalom to you and family.
J.
Cosmo
Member
Author: The Apostle John
Date: About A.D. 85
Theme: Knowing God by Believing in Jesus Christ
Key Words: Believe, Bear Witness, Life
Author. Early church tradition attributes the Fourth Gospel to John “the beloved disciple” (13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20), who belonged to the “inner circle” of Jesus’ followers (see Matt. 17:1; Mark 13:3). According to Christian writers of the second century, John moved to Ephesus, probably during the Jewish War of A.D. 66–70, where he continued his ministry. For instance, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons in the latter part of the second century, stated that “John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence in Ephesus in Asia” (Against Heresies 3.1.1).
Some scholars suggest that John 19:35 and 21:24 may reflect another author who faithfully collected the apostle’s eyewitness account and testimonials. However, the bulk of the evidence, both internal and external, supports John the apostle as the author.
Date. The same tradition that locates John in Ephesus suggests that he wrote his Gospel in the latter part of the first century. In the absence of substantial evidence to the contrary, most scholars accept this tradition.
Purpose. In a broad sense, John wrote to provide the Christians of the province of Asia (now in Asia Minor) with a fuller understanding of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. More specifically, he wrote to lead his readers to a settled faith on the basis of the words and works of Jesus, with the result that they “may have life in His name” (20:31).
John and the Synoptic Gospels. While John most likely knew of the other three Gospel accounts, he chose not to follow their chronological sequence of events as much as a topical order. In this case they may have used common oral and/or literary traditions. The broad outline is the same, and some particular events in Jesus’ ministry are common to all four books. Some of the distinctive differences are: 1) Instead of the familiar parables, John has lengthy discourses; 2) In place of the many miracles and healings in the Synoptics, John uses seven carefully picked miracles, which serve as “signs”; 3) The ministry of Jesus revolves around three Passover Feasts, instead of the one cited in the Synoptics; 4) The “I am” sayings are uniquely Johannine.
Content. John divides the ministry of Jesus into two distinct parts: chapters 2–12 give insight into His public ministry, while chapters 3–21 relate His private ministry to His disciples. In 1:1–18, called the “Prologue,” John deals with the theological implications of the first coming of Jesus. He shows Jesus’ preexistent state with God, His deity and essence, as well as His incarnation.
Christ Revealed. The book presents Jesus as the only begotten Son of God who became flesh. For John, Jesus’ humanity meant essentially a twofold mission: 1) As the “Lamb of God” (1:29), He procured the redemption of mankind; 2) Through His life and ministry He revealed the Father. Christ consistently pointed beyond Himself to the Father who had sent Him and whom He sought to glorify. In fact, the very miracles Jesus performed, which John characterized as “signs,” bore testimony to the divine mission of the Son of God. As the Son glorified the Father in ministry and passion, so the Father glorified the Son. But, as John shows, the Son’s glorification came at the Crucifixion (12:32, 33), not only in the postresurrection exaltation. By believing that Jesus is the Christ, the readers of John’s Gospel become participants in the life Jesus brought out of death (20:31).
The Holy Spirit at Work. Unique to John is the designation of the Holy Spirit as “Comforter” or “Helper” (14:16), literally “one called alongside.” He is “another Helper,” namely, one of the same kind as Jesus, thereby extending the ministry of Jesus to the end of this age. It would be a grave error, however, to understand the Spirit’s purpose merely in terms of one needed in predicaments. On the contrary, John demonstrates that the Spirit’s role encompasses every facet of life. In regard to the world outside of Christ, He works as the agent who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (16:8–11). The experience of being “born of the Spirit” is descriptive of New Birth (3:6). Because God in essence is Spirit, those who worship Him must do so spiritually, that is, as directed and motivated by the Holy Spirit (4:24). Further, in anticipation of Pentecost, the Spirit becomes the divine enabler for authoritative ministry (20:21–23).
The Holy Spirit also fulfills a definite function in relation to Christ. While the Father sent the Spirit in the name of Christ, the Spirit never draws attention to Himself, nor does He speak in His own authority. Instead, His mission is to glorify Jesus and to declare Christ’s teaching to the disciples (16:14).
John reveals the function of the Holy Spirit in continuing the work of Jesus, leading believers into an understanding of the meanings, implications, and imperatives of the gospel, and enabling them to do “greater works” than those done by Jesus (14:12). Present-day believers in Christ may thus view Him as their contemporary, not merely as a figure from the distant past.
Personal Application. In seeking to fulfill his purpose as stated in 20:20, 31, John confronts his readers with claims of Jesus that demand a personal response. A positive response of faith in “Jesus . . . the Christ, the Son of God” results in “life in His name.” John records the assertion of Jesus that He came “that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly” (10:10), and he makes it clear that life is not an independent quality unrelated to God or to Christ. The knowledge of “the only true God and Jesus Christ” (17:3), which implies fellowship as well as intellectual understanding, is the key to the meaning of eternal life.
Jack W. Hayford, Spirit Filled Life Study Bible
Date: About A.D. 85
Theme: Knowing God by Believing in Jesus Christ
Key Words: Believe, Bear Witness, Life
Author. Early church tradition attributes the Fourth Gospel to John “the beloved disciple” (13:23; 19:26; 20:2; 21:7, 20), who belonged to the “inner circle” of Jesus’ followers (see Matt. 17:1; Mark 13:3). According to Christian writers of the second century, John moved to Ephesus, probably during the Jewish War of A.D. 66–70, where he continued his ministry. For instance, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons in the latter part of the second century, stated that “John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence in Ephesus in Asia” (Against Heresies 3.1.1).
Some scholars suggest that John 19:35 and 21:24 may reflect another author who faithfully collected the apostle’s eyewitness account and testimonials. However, the bulk of the evidence, both internal and external, supports John the apostle as the author.
Date. The same tradition that locates John in Ephesus suggests that he wrote his Gospel in the latter part of the first century. In the absence of substantial evidence to the contrary, most scholars accept this tradition.
Purpose. In a broad sense, John wrote to provide the Christians of the province of Asia (now in Asia Minor) with a fuller understanding of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. More specifically, he wrote to lead his readers to a settled faith on the basis of the words and works of Jesus, with the result that they “may have life in His name” (20:31).
John and the Synoptic Gospels. While John most likely knew of the other three Gospel accounts, he chose not to follow their chronological sequence of events as much as a topical order. In this case they may have used common oral and/or literary traditions. The broad outline is the same, and some particular events in Jesus’ ministry are common to all four books. Some of the distinctive differences are: 1) Instead of the familiar parables, John has lengthy discourses; 2) In place of the many miracles and healings in the Synoptics, John uses seven carefully picked miracles, which serve as “signs”; 3) The ministry of Jesus revolves around three Passover Feasts, instead of the one cited in the Synoptics; 4) The “I am” sayings are uniquely Johannine.
Content. John divides the ministry of Jesus into two distinct parts: chapters 2–12 give insight into His public ministry, while chapters 3–21 relate His private ministry to His disciples. In 1:1–18, called the “Prologue,” John deals with the theological implications of the first coming of Jesus. He shows Jesus’ preexistent state with God, His deity and essence, as well as His incarnation.
Christ Revealed. The book presents Jesus as the only begotten Son of God who became flesh. For John, Jesus’ humanity meant essentially a twofold mission: 1) As the “Lamb of God” (1:29), He procured the redemption of mankind; 2) Through His life and ministry He revealed the Father. Christ consistently pointed beyond Himself to the Father who had sent Him and whom He sought to glorify. In fact, the very miracles Jesus performed, which John characterized as “signs,” bore testimony to the divine mission of the Son of God. As the Son glorified the Father in ministry and passion, so the Father glorified the Son. But, as John shows, the Son’s glorification came at the Crucifixion (12:32, 33), not only in the postresurrection exaltation. By believing that Jesus is the Christ, the readers of John’s Gospel become participants in the life Jesus brought out of death (20:31).
The Holy Spirit at Work. Unique to John is the designation of the Holy Spirit as “Comforter” or “Helper” (14:16), literally “one called alongside.” He is “another Helper,” namely, one of the same kind as Jesus, thereby extending the ministry of Jesus to the end of this age. It would be a grave error, however, to understand the Spirit’s purpose merely in terms of one needed in predicaments. On the contrary, John demonstrates that the Spirit’s role encompasses every facet of life. In regard to the world outside of Christ, He works as the agent who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (16:8–11). The experience of being “born of the Spirit” is descriptive of New Birth (3:6). Because God in essence is Spirit, those who worship Him must do so spiritually, that is, as directed and motivated by the Holy Spirit (4:24). Further, in anticipation of Pentecost, the Spirit becomes the divine enabler for authoritative ministry (20:21–23).
The Holy Spirit also fulfills a definite function in relation to Christ. While the Father sent the Spirit in the name of Christ, the Spirit never draws attention to Himself, nor does He speak in His own authority. Instead, His mission is to glorify Jesus and to declare Christ’s teaching to the disciples (16:14).
John reveals the function of the Holy Spirit in continuing the work of Jesus, leading believers into an understanding of the meanings, implications, and imperatives of the gospel, and enabling them to do “greater works” than those done by Jesus (14:12). Present-day believers in Christ may thus view Him as their contemporary, not merely as a figure from the distant past.
Personal Application. In seeking to fulfill his purpose as stated in 20:20, 31, John confronts his readers with claims of Jesus that demand a personal response. A positive response of faith in “Jesus . . . the Christ, the Son of God” results in “life in His name.” John records the assertion of Jesus that He came “that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly” (10:10), and he makes it clear that life is not an independent quality unrelated to God or to Christ. The knowledge of “the only true God and Jesus Christ” (17:3), which implies fellowship as well as intellectual understanding, is the key to the meaning of eternal life.
Jack W. Hayford, Spirit Filled Life Study Bible
@ Johnna @ GodsGrace
Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”If this scriptures is isolated from it context, and uses alone, it may seem to say what the unlearned desire for it to say ,to seemly go along with what they believe, or want to beleive from their own depraved hearts, instead of being a faithful steward of God's word and seek for it true sense, which men sent from God do.
Titus 2:12
“Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”The grace of God that indeed brought the message of free justification through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ ~ this same grace also teaches us, how to cause folks who are unbelievers to see what the grace of God has done in our life, in every area of our life. That some without the word may be won over (more on this point later) by our godly conversation, or at least, be convinced of the rellgion of Jesus Christ does indeed change sinner into saints.
Titus 2:10
“Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.”
"hath appeared to all men" ~ Jews and Gentiles, all without distinction, not all without exceptions, for it is evident God makes exceptions and has from the beginning of time.
"Calvinism often downplays the role of human free will" ~ No more, and even much less than God's word does.
"Emphasizing divine sovereignty instead" ~ Johann, why do you have a problem with that? The scriptures does this so much more than man could even dream of doing, and truly should do so much more, since it is in every book of the word of God so many times over. Bear with with me, proof is on its way.
"However, Scripture frequently highlights the importance of personal choice and the responsibility to respond to God’s calling." It is there, we agree, but never at the expense of down playing God's Sovereign reign and power over all in heaven and over the inhabitants of the earth ~ especially so, preventing God from doing whatsoever He pleases.
Before we look at scriptures you provided please consider: Reasons why we reject men holing to the teaching of free will in as far as man having such power in being able to make spiritual choices to please God (for only then is man's will truly free, so that he can please God and be accepted by him) will be seen in the following points. (we are indebted to men's wisdom, Samuel Richardson for the most part. who dealt with this same issue with what followings:
1. Because it exempts the creature from being under the power of God, for that which gives a creature power to do as he will, when God hath done all he may unto him, that doth make him no instrument subject to God’s power; for they affirm, that God doth not work in his omnipotence, but leaves it to the free will of the creature. It is one thing to be able to do a thing by persuasion, and another to do it by power which I cannot refuse, this latter they deny.
2. It denies God’s decree to be infallible, for either God determines in such and such cases, with the circumstances thereof, or not; if not, then he cometh short of the creature herein, for he determines such things in his matters.
3. If God doth not determine and apply the creature to will and work that which he works in the creature, then the creature is the cause why God wills this or that, and by consequence is the cause why he wills this or that, but the creature is not the cause, etc., God’s working this or that, must either go before the will, and so cause it to will, or else it must follow, accomplishing that which man’s will wills, the latter makes God to follow and tend on man’s will; also it makes the will of man to have a casual force in God himself, as if God should say, I will work conversion, faith, etc., in such a person if he will.
4. If liberty of will stands in such a power, free for exercising good or evil, then Christ had not liberty of will, for he had liberty only to work that which was good; nor hath man of himself any liberty or power to come to Christ; for, saith Christ, none can come to me, except the Father draw him, Jn.6:44,37, so that they are deceived who make God by his grace to convert us. So that he leaves it in our power, whether we will be converted or no; but who can resist that which God worked by his almighty power, Eph.1:19, when he puts forth his power which raised Christ from the dead; and if this could be resisted, it were not almighty. The Apostle saith, that the power did work in him mightily. Col.1:29,Eph.1:19, 3:20.
5. Because God in his good pleasure of his will, doth freely and effectually determine of all things whatsoever he will, he doth all things according to the counsel of his own will, Eph.1:11, all things are in the mind of God before they are in themselves, and what he will, he effected in his time, and nothing is done, if he wills it not to be done, Psal.115:3,35:6; Jehovah doth whatsoever he pleases. The will of God is the first cause of all things; “for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”Rev.4:11.
He by willing makes the object willing, Jer.1:18, he hath mercy on whom he will, Rom.9:18, and there is no cause to be given of his will. It’s God that works in you to will and to do, Phil.2:13; and such as make the will of God to depend upon the creature, as if he believes, God wills his salvation, if he believes not, he wills his damnation, makes God’s will mutable, and to depend upon the act of the creature; and then it will follow, so often as the will of the creature changes, so often God changes, and then God will do this or that if man will; but whatsoever God wills in all things he wills effectually, so that he cannot in no wise be hindered or disappointed; for if God should will anything he could not obtain, there should be imperfection in God, and if he can obtain it and will not, how then doth he will it? “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.”Isa.46:10. Every decree of God is eternal, I Cor.2:7, Acts 15:18, and remains always immutable, Num.23:23, Prov.19:21, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48; whom he predestinated, them he called, Rom.8:30; for God did from eternity know every several thing, with all the circumstances thereof, and know show to apply the fittest occasion to everything, and how to effect all things according to his own immeasurable glory. He that frames the heart, observes and orders all their works, Psal.33:15, Isa.44:2, even those things that seem to happen most freely and spontaneously, God determines of according to his sovereign will, of the very heart of man. I Sam.10:9,26, Prov.21:1. Of the lot cast into the lap, and the entire disposing thereof being of the LORD, Prov.16:33; of sparrows falling, Matt.10:29-30; of lilies, flowers, and grass of the earth, Matt.6:28-30; yea of all creatures and things. Amos 4:13,Jer.14:22. “I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the LORD do all these things.” Isa.45:7. By all which it appears that the will of God determined the certainty of all things; and if God should not determine all things, the will of God should not be simply and universally the first cause; and to deny him to be the first cause, implies that there are two first beginnings, or more than two, which cannot be truth. And for any to say, that man hath power to resist all God can work for his conversion, is to put grace in man’s power, {and not man’s will under the power of grace;} and this is to say, that man is able to frustrate God’s counsel concerning his conversion, and that man possesses a power to resist all that God can work herein; and this is to affirm, that man hath power to frustrate God’s counsel; and if it be so, will it not follow that man hath power to make God a liar? If God by his omnipotent power inclines the wills of men whither he wills, then he hath them more in his power than man hath; then his will decreeing is the cause necessity followed, and the will of the creature is not the cause of the necessities of things. The Scriptures declare that God works all things after the counsel of his will {not man’s will} and that the LORD hath made all things for himself. “The LORD hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Prov.16:4
There's more, but enough...Let us consider some of your scriptures, next.
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@ GodsGrace
Dear Fran,
1689 confession of faith, the 2nd edition, the first one came out in 1648, or thereabout is the one that I enjoy and could easily embrace. Samuel Richardson and other Particular Baptist were not of the Reformed faith community of believers ~they were Baptist period, never been Reformed, they did not need to go through the Reformation, they were never part of Rome, never.
I do not live by confessions/creeds written by men, but by the word of God, yet I see nothing wrong with them as far as letting others know what you stand for, but that's as far as it goes with me.
@ GodsGrace
You dear sister, are not following very well, no pun intended. I do not believe in a secret rapture as taught by man and Matthew 24:40,41 is not speaking about the rapture as many teach.. If you followed by words carefully I said one shall be take, or, caught up into the air when Christ returns, and the others left to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire which will be this earth when it will be destroyed with fire at Christ's coming and the end of the world.
Another subject for another day, yet there is NO SUCH TEACHING in the scriptures concerning 70 A.D. a fable that many have fallen for. I would love to discuss Matthew 24. Mark 13; and Luke 21, 2nd Thess 2; and Revelation 6-19 soon. I'm an Amill Idealist ~ that should tell you a lot of what I believe and teach.
Johann
Well-known member
I have no problem with God's sovereignty.
Corporate election
Our society and culture focus so much on people as individuals that we have an aversion to being referred to as belonging to any group. And the modern Bible reader has a tendency to lose sight of the bigger picture and apply every passage to themselves individually. That is the lens through which they read Scripture—to help them personally. So, it’s difficult for us today to read the Bible in any other way.
But none of the New Testament passages we’ve read describe election as God choosing individuals for salvation. Rather, it means God choosing a people to serve him and fulfill the purposes in his great plan. In the Bible, elect is used mostly as a noun and not a verb. Nowhere does Scripture say that God “elects” any individual to salvation. This is a popular but very superficial understanding of the biblical texts. God may choose an individual to serve him in some capacity but does not individually elect anyone to believe in him. We are not chosen to believe in Christ but chosen in Christ.
The chosen bride of Christ
In the latter part of Ephesians, Paul uses the metaphor of a bride to refer to Christ’s church (Ephesians 5:22-32). In this and other passages, the image is of God choosing the church as a whole (not to individuals in the church) to be the “bride of Christ” (2 Corinthians 1:2, Revelation 21:9 and 21:21-22).
So, God elected a people to proclaim his praises. Although the Church is made of individuals, the term elect doesn’t refer to the individuals in the Church, it refers to the Church corporately as a whole. Theologians call this “corporate election.” An individual becomes a member of God’s elect when they willingly and freely respond to God’s call.
Biblical Usage of ἐκλεκτός
In the New Testament, ἐκλεκτός is most often used as a noun, referring to those chosen or selected by God. Its basic meaning is "chosen," and it functions primarily in a passive sense, referring to the recipients of God's election.
Key New Testament Examples:
Matthew 24:22 – "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (ἐκλεκτῶν), those days will be shortened."
Romans 8:33 – "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect (ἐκλεκτούς)? It is God who justifies."
1 Peter 1:1-2 – "To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect (ἐκλεκτοῖς) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father."
2. Linguistic and Etymological Considerations
The word ἐκλεκτός comes from the verb ἐκλέγω (eklegō), meaning "to choose" or "to select." This verb appears in the Septuagint (LXX) and the New Testament, but the noun form ἐκλεκτός itself is more prevalent. It is also connected to the Hebrew root בָּחַר (bakar, "to choose"), which is found throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.
In the LXX, ἐκλεκτός is used in parallel to בָּחַר, particularly in passages that highlight God's choosing of Israel or specific individuals for particular purposes. For example:
Isaiah 42:1 (LXX): "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen (ἐκλεκτόν), in whom my soul delights."
Deuteronomy 7:6 (LXX): "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen (ἐξελέξατο) you to be a people for His own possession."
Thus, ἐκλεκτός in the New Testament builds on a long history of God's choosing people for a specific purpose or calling.
The term ἐκλεκτός in the New Testament is often tied to God’s sovereign initiative in salvation, particularly in terms of God’s grace and calling. However, when examining it outside of a Calvinist framework, scholars like Michael L. Brown and Arnold Fruchtenbaum stress that election is not about an unconditional or unilateral decision by God, but rather about God's choosing individuals or groups for a specific role in His plan—a role that includes but is not limited to salvation.
Michael L. Brown (Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus):
Brown argues that election in the Bible should be understood in the context of God’s promises and His faithfulness to His covenants, particularly with Israel. For Brown, election is not an arbitrary act but a purposeful one: God’s choice is made to advance His plan of salvation for the world, and all people, regardless of ethnicity, are invited to partake in it.
Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum (Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology):
Fruchtenbaum points out that God’s election of Israel in the Hebrew Scriptures, as well as His election of individuals in the New Testament (such as the apostles), is not a statement about eternal destiny in the Calvinistic sense. Rather, it focuses on purpose—to serve as a witness to the nations, to fulfill God’s will, and to be part of His redemptive plan. In this light, election is about calling to a particular role or responsibility rather than a deterministic doctrine of salvation.
4. Jewish Context of Election
The concept of election in the Old Testament is grounded in God’s covenant with Israel. The Jewish understanding of election is corporate rather than individual, focusing on God's selection of Israel as a nation for a specific role in history. This understanding is important because it influences how election is understood in the New Testament. Israel was chosen to bring blessing to the world through the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 12:3), and this concept extends into the New Testament understanding of God's elect people.
The New Testament expands this election to include Gentiles, incorporating all believers in Christ into this chosen people (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 2:9), a theme also present in the Septuagint. Thus, election should be viewed as God's sovereign act of choosing a people to be part of His redemptive work, rather than a unilateral, unconditional act of predestination.
5. The Verb ἐκλέγω and its Implications
While the noun ἐκλεκτός is used far more frequently in the New Testament, the verb ἐκλέγω is still significant in understanding the dynamic of God's election. The verb, which means "to choose" or "select," often has a volitional sense, indicating that God’s choice is an act of divine will. In passages like John 15:16 ("You did not choose Me, but I chose you"), ἐκλέγω highlights the initiative of God in choosing individuals, yet it is coupled with a human response to that choice.
In non-Calvinistic readings, scholars like Richard Bauckham (Jesus and the Eyewitnesses) emphasize that God's act of election is part of His invitation to a relationship, one that includes the freedom to respond. For Bauckham, the biblical concept of election does not negate human responsibility, and the choice to follow God is always framed within the context of a relational invitation rather than a preordained fate.
6. The Role of Election in Salvation and Purpose
In sum, ἐκλεκτός in the Bible refers primarily to God’s choosing of individuals or groups for a particular purpose, particularly within the context of salvation history. It is essential to see this election as God’s sovereign action that serves a purposeful calling, rather than an isolated act of determinism. While the term has theological implications for understanding God’s work in salvation, it is important to avoid reading it into deterministic systems that contradict the biblical doctrine of free will and human responsibility.
In the end, the use of ἐκλεκτός underscores the notion of God’s purposeful sovereignty in working through His people, making them instruments of His redemptive plan.
Sources:
Michael L. Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Volume 1
Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology
Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses
A.T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research
C.F.D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek
What is so hard to understand @Red Baker? But let's continue with the verses I have posted.
J.
@Johann @ GodsGrace
Greetings, Well, I believe you do, and I say this without judging your personal character, which I would never do, for that's God's rightful prerogative not proud man, and I would not venture to go there, for even my best judgement would be sinful, and prejudice in my favor.
So, let's "cut to the chase" ~ Johann, I'm too old to waste time, so, let me say this......I love addressing any and all scriptures you can present that you deem is vital to your position, all I ask in return is that you do the same back to me once I have given my time in doing so.
Please come back and take the same scriptures and show why you are correct in holding what you do, and why I'm not, it is just that simple ~ please, do not run to another idea, or thought, until you have done so ~ there can be no true dialogue unto this is done.
This post here is presenting another thought, one that has not as of yet came up, but, knew that it would, because as I said, I've been doing this for many years and I know what to expect, and I'm prepared to answer the best I can, God helping me, in my limited gift, of earnestly contending for the faith that was once delivered unto us through the apostles of our Lord Jesus. I trust you do understand. So, go back and begin to take them one at a time, and show me why you are right, and I'm not, we can do this out of respect and love toward each other, I am sure. In the meantime, I'm going to address this present post, in an attempt to stay on track.
Johann, truly trust your power is back on, that has to be frustrating ~may the Lord be with with you as you labor under adverse conditions and grant you mercy and patience ~ we're too spoil here in America, and it tends to make you more unthankful, but being raised as I was, very poor, I'm thankful for every blessings God afford us, and truly too much at times. Though raised poor, (most people were back in the late forties and fifties, sixties,) I'm doing good now, by working hard, and doing the things the right way per Proverbs and honoring God with what he has seem fit put into my life.
Now to work on:
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Johann
Well-known member
I’ve already posted all the paradoxical verses that appear to contradict what you and Gill are asserting, brother.
No problem.
No problem.
Thank you brother-power out at six PM. This will definitely cause a problem with our dialogue.
Johann.
@Johann @ GodsGrace
Johann, not for me ~ God is my witness, that I do not allow non, or religious society to dictate how I read, and studying the scriptures,...but will say this, sitting under and listening to false prophets will indeed begin "very deceitfully to dictate to our subconsciousness" so that, men will begin to think differently, allowing others to think for them, and some, even commanding them to do so, if they want to please God, since they consider themselves the mouth piece of God to them and have convinced their hearers that they are.
Famous last word! Do I need to remind you, and this writer, that you copied and pasted, (which I have no problem with you doing so, it just makes it hard for one man to stay caught up, plus, they are not here to defend what they have written on the given subject under consideration.) there are examples of famous last statements made by folks that proved their inability to live up to what they boast about. The same will be proven concerning this statement.
SCRIPTURE GIVES EXAMPLES of Arrogant Speech that Brought Direct and Immediate Judgment.
SATAN: This highest of created beings though that he could and should be equal with Jehovah;PHARAOH: The powerful king of Egypt who thought he did not need to acknowledge the LORD.
- When Moses and Aaron spake to him, he said, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go” (Exodus 5:1-2).
IGOLIATH: A gigantic champion of the Philistines who thought he could mock David and his God.
Israel and the Philistines were at war when their champion and giant appeared (I Samuel 17:1-7).
Having already challenged Israel, the giant despised young David by saying, “Am I a dog that thou comest to me with staves? And the Philistine cursed David by his gods…. Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field” (I Samuel 17:43-44).
NABAL: A rich man of the house of Caleb who thought he could easily and evilly despise David. David asked modest help of Nabal, who was wealthy and prospering at harvest (I Sam 25:1-9). When Nabal heard David’s request, he said, “Who is David? and who is the son of Jesse? there be many servants now a days that break a way every man from his master” (I Samuel 25:10-11).
So many more, but enough.
Just marking these famous last words.
You Johann, and the source you chose to support your teaching, uses the so-called Greek, when Christ and the men of God used context...scriptures...by a godly hermeneutic method of comparing scriptures with scriptures here a little and there a little, etc.
Isaiah 28:10
“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”John 5:39
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”Acts 17:11
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”This is what noble Christians do, they search the scriptures and trust them through the Spirit of God to deliver His truth to them. And he will in His own timing.
Another famous last word. They will soon be tested in our next post coming later today, the Lord willing.
Okay, it is time to test these famous last word. Going to Romans nine next to answer these famous last words.
