Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

Interesting Red.
You claim Paul was not speaking to a nation but then went on to state what God demanded FROM THAT NATION...in order to keep them separate from other cultures.
You even stated "that the israelites should not learn their ways".
@ GodsGrace

Fran, dear child of grace, I did not say Paul was "not" speaking about Israel in Romans nine, of course he was, my point being.....while speaking about Israel, he was not speaking of them concerning them being used for service, or a medium through which God is made known to others, or, to carry out his true worship in this world ~ even though that has some truth in it, but not here in Romans nine ~ yet the purpose of Romans nine is to show, while Israel after the flesh did not receive or believe in Christ, that did not mean that the word of God had failed ~ far from that to be the case; Paul went on to show that God's children, and the true seed of Jesus Christ are children of God's promises and oath, and that not all Israel are of Israel (or, or the very elect)....Paul will use two men that came out of the loins of Abraham to prove his teaching, which I shall show very soon, the Lord willing.

The sum is this: Romans nine is addressing salvation from sin and condemnation.... the election under consideration has to do with salvation, not service as many labored to make this to be, so as to reject the true teaching of Paul in this portion of the word of God.

More later....RB
 
Think this is a waste of my time-I'm taking too much of your snide jabs at me.

J.
@Johann,

Please do not get offended, that's not a good sign coming from a man of God (any person defending the word of God) No doubt you are a much stronger person than that, I said very little to offend you.

But, I do mean you would be wasting your time using the Greek on me. Here is another reason why this is so.

Most of God's children are uneducated, simple people of this world, they are not part of the wise, and noble, but more from the lower portion of society, in education and other ways as well ~ and God would not over tax them with the having to know such things before they could know the scriptures, that is very unreasonable to even think that to be the case.


1st Corinthians 1:18-31~"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

I am part of the thing which is NOT, and I say this without showing any humility but just facing the truth of whom I am. But, I'm not alone, you and I will find God's children that are misfits and nobodies, mostly unknown to the world. We do not need to know a language that we cannot learn, and would be a waste of precious time thinking we need to do so.

Brother, show yourself to be strong and keep going even if you think you are not appreciated as you think you should be. Truly what does it take to stop you? It would take more than just words to stop a good solider of Jesus Christ.
 
The sum is this: Romans nine is addressing salvation from sin and condemnation.... the election under consideration has to do with salvation, not service as many labored to make this to be, so as to reject the true teaching of Paul in this portion of the word of God.

More later....RB
That is not true.

It is true that Romans nine is addressing the plan, the means, the mechanism for bringing salvation from sin and condemnation to the world. But the very elections described specifically, namely, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Pharoah were all selections [elections] for service. Some enjoyed salvation, others did not. The whole purpose of the election of Israel was election for service. Some ended up saved, most did not.

The use of the potter and the clay was one of molding for service, not molding for salvation. We know that because God's use of the clay was to make His power known (v.22). That can only be observed by the service involved. Whether or not salvation even occurred is not observable. Neither then nor now can it be observed whether an individual is lost or saved (John 3:8).
 
Brother, show yourself to be strong and keep going even if you think you are not appreciated as you think you should be. Truly what does it take to stop you? It would take more than just words to stop a good solider of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps he should direct his attention to where it would be productive.
 
But, I do mean you would be wasting your time using the Greek on me. Here is another reason why this is so.

Most of God's children are uneducated, simple people of this world, they are not part of the wise, and noble, but more from the lower portion of society, in education and other ways as well ~ and God would not over tax them with the having to know such things before they could know the scriptures, that is very unreasonable to even think that to be the case.
But that is not you. Being attuned to and making use of the available Greek facilities is quite within your intellectual abilities. You reject that tool for better understanding because it doesn't always support your own view and your personal understanding. The intellectual stature of most of God's children is not an issue. In many respects that is the purpose of the preacher/teacher, one that even you could take full advantage of.
 
Brother, show yourself to be strong and keep going even if you think you are not appreciated as you think you should be. Truly what does it take to stop you? It would take more than just words to stop a good solider of Jesus Christ.

Verses 10-13

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Here the word “election” is introduced with the story of Rebecca’s two sons, Jacob and Esau. Paul took care to say that both sons were born of “one man…our father Isaac.” This means that both Jacob and Esau were physical descendants of Abraham. Esau was the eldest; nevertheless God elected Jacob as the one through whom would come the Savior. Please note that the election did not elect Jacob the man to salvation, but it did elect the nation of Jacob to bring the promised Seed–Jesus Christ. Therefore, this passage does not say that the man Jacob was eternally saved, or that the man Esau was eternally damned.

Neither does it say that every descendant of Jacob would be saved, or every descendant of Esau would be damned. It simply tells us that God elected that Jesus would be born through Jacob’s descendants rather than Esau’s, proving that God can choose whomever He wants through whom to do His will. God proved that He was not bound by the traditions of men to choose the eldest son (and Isaac’s favorite son), but He has authority to choose whomever He wishes according to His own will.

Remembering what Paul taught in the previous section, the right application of the example of the election of Jacob is this: Being physically descended from Abraham does not automatically entitle one to God’s favor. This was a vain hope that many Jews in Paul’s day were holding onto. They believed that being a physical “son of Abraham” made them automatically right with God. This is why John the Baptist said to the unrepentant Jews:

Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matt. 3:8-10)

God has indeed raised up children to Abraham from the living stones who are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. (Eph. 2:19-20)

Just as God–choosing not to be bound by the traditions of men–chose Jacob over Esau through whom to bring the Savior, He was choosing to accept Gentiles as children of Abraham. It was not “the works of the law” done by the cultural Jew that would save, but God had chosen to save all who met His conditions of repentance and faith (Acts 20:21).

Jacob Have I Loved, But Esau Have I Hated

We have come now to the oft quoted phrase, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” This sentence deserves extra attention, lest one mistakenly see in it a great injustice on God’s part. Paul was quoting Old Testament Scriptures, and we must visit those verses if we want to understand the context.

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the LORD. “ Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness.” Even though Edom has said, “ We have been impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the LORD of hosts:“ They may build, but I will throw down; they shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.” (Mal. 1:2-4)

First, it should be clear that the Lord was speaking of 2 nations — Israel and Edom (Esau’s descendants). God was not speaking of the two men Jacob and Esau; both men were long dead. Nor is God saying He chose one race for salvation and another race for damnation. However, God DID choose (elect) one nation through whom to bring the Savior into the world (this had nothing to do with personal salvation.) In this Malachi passage, God is reminding backslidden Israel how much He has loved them and favored them as a nation. He sovereignly chose this nation to be used by Him to bless the whole world, and yet the nation (as a whole) had turned against Him!

When God says He hated Esau (the nation), we ought to keep in mind that Jesus also taught this:

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Did Jesus mean that we should literally walk in hatred toward our earthly family members?–No. For we are called to love both our brethren in Christ and our enemies, doing good to all. Obviously Jesus meant that we must esteem (and fear) other people so much less than we esteem Him; we are to love Him with ALL our heart, soul, mind and strength. We cannot be the servants of God while we are trying to please men. In this case, “hate” can mean “to love less by comparison.” In the same way, God did not bless the nation of Esau in the same way He blessed the nation of Israel. In the Malachi passage, God was calling the nation of Israel to account–for to whom much is given, much is required. He had blessed them exceedingly, and they had repaid Him evil for His good.

It is quite true that God had punished the nation of Esau (Edom) by laying waste his mountains. Did God do this for no reason?

The history of the nation of Edom is important to study. Esau himself, though he despised his birthright and thus became an example of one who gives up the spiritual blessings of God for carnal indulgence, did not necessarily die an ungodly man (as many assume). Though he was angry with Jacob and wanted to kill him at one time, when Jacob came seeking forgiveness of Esau, Esau readily forgave him. There is no indication that Esau or his immediate descendants caused any trouble for Jacob’s family (the nation of Israel) for some time. In fact, the house of Esau was under God’s protection at one time:

And command the people, saying, “You are about to pass through the territory of your brethren, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. Therefore watch yourselves carefully. Do not meddle with them, for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as one footstep, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession. (Deut 2:4-5)

Furthermore, it is written that God did for national Esau just exactly what He also did for national Israel–that is, He uprooted and destroyed a wicked nation before him and enabled him to take possession of the land.

But the LORD destroyed them before them, and they dispossessed them and dwelt in their place, just as He had done for the descendants of Esau, who dwelt in Seir, when He destroyed the Horites from before them. They dispossessed them and dwelt in their place, even to this day. (Deut. 2:21-22)

The Israelites were specifically commanded not to despise the Edomites (house of Esau).

You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. (Deut. 23:7)

It appears that just as Israel apostasized from following the Lord, the house of Esau did the same. At one time, they apparently had wisdom and counsel:

Against Edom. Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Is wisdom no more in Teman? Has counsel perished from the prudent? Has their wisdom vanished?” (Jer. 49:7)

God tells us exactly why Edom was judged and destroyed. It was not an arbitrary act on God’s part. Edom reaped what Edom sowed:

The pride of your heart has deceived you…For violence against your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. In the day that you stood on the other side—in the day that strangers carried captive his forces, when foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem—even you were as one of them. But you should not have gazed on the day of your brother in the day of his captivity;nor should you have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; nor should you have spoken proudly in the day of distress. You should not have entered the gate of My people in the day of their calamity. Indeed, you should not have gazed on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor laidhands on their substance in the day of their calamity. You should not have stood at the crossroads to cut off those among them who escaped; nor should you have delivered up those among them who remained in the day of distress. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; as you have done, it shall be done to you; your reprisal shall return upon your own head. (Obadiah 3, 10-15)

Edom [shall be] a desolate wilderness, because of violence against the people of Judah, for they have shed innocent blood in their land. (Joel 3:19)

For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, and he kept his wrath forever. (Amos 1:11)

So we see that the nation of Edom/Esau was destroyed by God for SIN. Esau was not “hated” by God–either as a man or a nation–due to some unchangeable “election to damnation” before time began.

Remember: while God elected Israel as the nation through which Messiah Jesus would come, He is no respecter of persons–but in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35). When Israel was punished by Babylon and Assyria, this did not mean every Israelite lost salvation. There were those in Israel who were faithful to God. Likewise, any persons who lived in the nation of Edom–that feared Him and worked righteousness–were also accepted by Him.

The Example of Pharaoh

Verses 17-18

For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Here, Paul mentions Pharaoh, whom God hardened. Why did God choose to harden him? What Paul did not mention here is that Pharaoh also hardened HIMSELF repeatedly against the Lord. God–the Potter–absolutely has the right to harden a man in his chosen rebellion! He will not strive with man forever. This is why we are warned not to reject truth, or God shall send us a strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:9-11)! And this is why we are told to walk in the light while the light is with us, lest darkness overtake us (John 12:35).

Though the Calvinist reads into this passage that God arbitrarily hardened Pharaoh–not desiring or allowing him space to repent–this cannot be true.

For Scripture says, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11) and that God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) Thus, grace appeared to Pharaoh, for God was not willing that Pharaoh should perish. But Pharaoh resisted grace (as some of the Jews resisted the Holy Spirit–Acts 7:51) until God became his enemy and fought against him. For he that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy (Prov. 29:1). Nehemiah 9:10 explains why God used Pharaoh in the way that He did:

You showed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, against all his servants, and against all the people of his land. For You knew that they acted proudly against them. So You made a name for Yourself, as it is this day.

It was because of Pharaoh’s pride and persecution of the Israelites, coupled with Pharaoh’s hardening of his own heart against God’s command, that led to God’s fighting against him for his own destruction. God had the right to use even Pharaoh’s rebellion in order to show His own power and make His name great in all the earth.

Once again, remember that Paul’s theme in Rom. 9 is his countrymen after the flesh–the Israelites who do not believe on Christ, and in fact persecuted the followers of Christ. If these Jews reject the truth, does not God have the right to harden them in their chosen rebellion, and use even their rebellion to make His name great in all the earth, meanwhile saving the Gentiles who repent and believe? Indeed, He does. As Paul and Barnabas testified so boldly before some of the Jews who rejected the gospel:

God’s Right to Save Whom He Wills, Independent of Man’s Tradition.

Read on.

J.
 
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That is not true.

It is true that Romans nine is addressing the plan, the means, the mechanism for bringing salvation from sin and condemnation to the world. But the very elections described specifically, namely, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Pharoah were all selections [elections] for service. Some enjoyed salvation, others did not. The whole purpose of the election of Israel was election for service. Some ended up saved, most did not.

The use of the potter and the clay was one of molding for service, not molding for salvation. We know that because God's use of the clay was to make His power known (v.22). That can only be observed by the service involved. Whether or not salvation even occurred is not observable. Neither then nor now can it be observed whether an individual is lost or saved (John 3:8
@Jim

Good morning Jim,

You should jump in and provide your understanding (which I know what it is, since you and I have went around and around over the past 15 years or so) since you have never truly given a summary of what you believe by using Romans nine. You can just glean through it, like I'm doing without spending forever going through it.
 
Well Jim, please tell me just how some ended up saved? and other not, using scriptures to support what you are going to say.
Abraham – Chosen for a Covenant, Justified by Faith
Saved

Genesis 15:6 – “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Romans 4:3 – Paul confirms that Abraham’s justification was by faith, not by works.

Hebrews 11:8-10 – Abraham is listed among the faithful who looked for a heavenly city.

2. Isaac – Chosen to Continue the Covenant, Yet Individually Responsible
Saved

Genesis 26:2-5 – God confirms His covenant with Isaac, linking it to Abraham’s obedience.

Hebrews 11:20 – Isaac is listed among the faithful.
3. Jacob – Chosen for Service, Not Because of Personal Merit
Saved

Genesis 28:13-15 – God confirms His covenant with Jacob.
Genesis 32:24-30 – Jacob wrestles with God, showing a personal transformation.
Hebrews 11:21 – Jacob is listed among the faithful.

4. Esau – Not Chosen for the Covenant, Lost Due to Unbelief
Not Saved

Genesis 25:34 – “Thus Esau despised his birthright.”
Hebrews 12:16-17 – “Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.”
Esau’s rejection was due to personal choices, not mere predestination to damnation.
5. Pharaoh – Raised for a Purpose, Hardened Due to Rebellion
Not Saved

Exodus 5:2 – “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.”
Exodus 8:15 – Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God hardened it further.
Romans 9:17-18 – Paul cites Pharaoh as an example of God using a ruler to demonstrate His power.
6. Israel – Elected as a Nation for Service, But Most Were Lost
Some Saved, Most Were Not

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 – Israel was chosen as a nation, not for individual salvation but for service.
Romans 9:6 – “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”
Romans 10:1-4 – Paul laments that Israel sought righteousness through the Law rather than faith.
Romans 11:5-7 – A remnant was saved, but the rest were hardened.

Principle: Election for Service, Salvation by Faith
The examples in Romans 9 illustrate that God's choice of individuals or nations was primarily for service, not unconditional salvation. Even among those chosen for divine purposes (such as Jacob and Pharaoh), their personal faith or rebellion determined their eternal standing. Many Israelites were elect for service yet rejected the Messiah, while Gentiles were grafted in through faith (Romans 11:17-23).

J.
 

Verses 10-13

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Here the word “election” is introduced with the story of Rebecca’s two sons, Jacob and Esau. Paul took care to say that both sons were born of “one man…our father Isaac.” This means that both Jacob and Esau were physical descendants of Abraham. Esau was the eldest; nevertheless God elected Jacob as the one through whom would come the Savior. Please note that the election did not elect Jacob the man to salvation, but it did elect the nation of Jacob to bring the promised Seed–Jesus Christ. Therefore, this passage does not say that the man Jacob was eternally saved, or that the man Esau was eternally damned.

Neither does it say that every descendant of Jacob would be saved, or every descendant of Esau would be damned. It simply tells us that God elected that Jesus would be born through Jacob’s descendants rather than Esau’s, proving that God can choose whomever He wants through whom to do His will. God proved that He was not bound by the traditions of men to choose the eldest son (and Isaac’s favorite son), but He has authority to choose whomever He wishes according to His own will.

Remembering what Paul taught in the previous section, the right application of the example of the election of Jacob is this: Being physically descended from Abraham does not automatically entitle one to God’s favor. This was a vain hope that many Jews in Paul’s day were holding onto. They believed that being a physical “son of Abraham” made them automatically right with God. This is why John the Baptist said to the unrepentant Jews:

Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matt. 3:8-10)

God has indeed raised up children to Abraham from the living stones who are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. (Eph. 2:19-20)

Just as God–choosing not to be bound by the traditions of men–chose Jacob over Esau through whom to bring the Savior, He was choosing to accept Gentiles as children of Abraham. It was not “the works of the law” done by the cultural Jew that would save, but God had chosen to save all who met His conditions of repentance and faith (Acts 20:21).

Jacob Have I Loved, But Esau Have I Hated

We have come now to the oft quoted phrase, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” This sentence deserves extra attention, lest one mistakenly see in it a great injustice on God’s part. Paul was quoting Old Testament Scriptures, and we must visit those verses if we want to understand the context.

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the LORD. “ Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness.” Even though Edom has said, “ We have been impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places,” Thus says the LORD of hosts:“ They may build, but I will throw down; they shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, and the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.” (Mal. 1:2-4)

First, it should be clear that the Lord was speaking of 2 nations — Israel and Edom (Esau’s descendants). God was not speaking of the two men Jacob and Esau; both men were long dead. Nor is God saying He chose one race for salvation and another race for damnation. However, God DID choose (elect) one nation through whom to bring the Savior into the world (this had nothing to do with personal salvation.) In this Malachi passage, God is reminding backslidden Israel how much He has loved them and favored them as a nation. He sovereignly chose this nation to be used by Him to bless the whole world, and yet the nation (as a whole) had turned against Him!

When God says He hated Esau (the nation), we ought to keep in mind that Jesus also taught this:

If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Did Jesus mean that we should literally walk in hatred toward our earthly family members?–No. For we are called to love both our brethren in Christ and our enemies, doing good to all. Obviously Jesus meant that we must esteem (and fear) other people so much less than we esteem Him; we are to love Him with ALL our heart, soul, mind and strength. We cannot be the servants of God while we are trying to please men. In this case, “hate” can mean “to love less by comparison.” In the same way, God did not bless the nation of Esau in the same way He blessed the nation of Israel. In the Malachi passage, God was calling the nation of Israel to account–for to whom much is given, much is required. He had blessed them exceedingly, and they had repaid Him evil for His good.

It is quite true that God had punished the nation of Esau (Edom) by laying waste his mountains. Did God do this for no reason?

The history of the nation of Edom is important to study. Esau himself, though he despised his birthright and thus became an example of one who gives up the spiritual blessings of God for carnal indulgence, did not necessarily die an ungodly man (as many assume). Though he was angry with Jacob and wanted to kill him at one time, when Jacob came seeking forgiveness of Esau, Esau readily forgave him. There is no indication that Esau or his immediate descendants caused any trouble for Jacob’s family (the nation of Israel) for some time. In fact, the house of Esau was under God’s protection at one time:

And command the people, saying, “You are about to pass through the territory of your brethren, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. Therefore watch yourselves carefully. Do not meddle with them, for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as one footstep, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession. (Deut 2:4-5)

Furthermore, it is written that God did for national Esau just exactly what He also did for national Israel–that is, He uprooted and destroyed a wicked nation before him and enabled him to take possession of the land.

But the LORD destroyed them before them, and they dispossessed them and dwelt in their place, just as He had done for the descendants of Esau, who dwelt in Seir, when He destroyed the Horites from before them. They dispossessed them and dwelt in their place, even to this day. (Deut. 2:21-22)

The Israelites were specifically commanded not to despise the Edomites (house of Esau).

You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. (Deut. 23:7)

It appears that just as Israel apostasized from following the Lord, the house of Esau did the same. At one time, they apparently had wisdom and counsel:

Against Edom. Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Is wisdom no more in Teman? Has counsel perished from the prudent? Has their wisdom vanished?” (Jer. 49:7)

God tells us exactly why Edom was judged and destroyed. It was not an arbitrary act on God’s part. Edom reaped what Edom sowed:

The pride of your heart has deceived you…For violence against your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. In the day that you stood on the other side—in the day that strangers carried captive his forces, when foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem—even you were as one of them. But you should not have gazed on the day of your brother in the day of his captivity;nor should you have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; nor should you have spoken proudly in the day of distress. You should not have entered the gate of My people in the day of their calamity. Indeed, you should not have gazed on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor laidhands on their substance in the day of their calamity. You should not have stood at the crossroads to cut off those among them who escaped; nor should you have delivered up those among them who remained in the day of distress. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; as you have done, it shall be done to you; your reprisal shall return upon your own head. (Obadiah 3, 10-15)

Edom [shall be] a desolate wilderness, because of violence against the people of Judah, for they have shed innocent blood in their land. (Joel 3:19)

For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, and he kept his wrath forever. (Amos 1:11)

So we see that the nation of Edom/Esau was destroyed by God for SIN. Esau was not “hated” by God–either as a man or a nation–due to some unchangeable “election to damnation” before time began.

Remember: while God elected Israel as the nation through which Messiah Jesus would come, He is no respecter of persons–but in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35). When Israel was punished by Babylon and Assyria, this did not mean every Israelite lost salvation. There were those in Israel who were faithful to God. Likewise, any persons who lived in the nation of Edom–that feared Him and worked righteousness–were also accepted by Him.

The Example of Pharaoh

Verses 17-18

For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Here, Paul mentions Pharaoh, whom God hardened. Why did God choose to harden him? What Paul did not mention here is that Pharaoh also hardened HIMSELF repeatedly against the Lord. God–the Potter–absolutely has the right to harden a man in his chosen rebellion! He will not strive with man forever. This is why we are warned not to reject truth, or God shall send us a strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:9-11)! And this is why we are told to walk in the light while the light is with us, lest darkness overtake us (John 12:35).

Though the Calvinist reads into this passage that God arbitrarily hardened Pharaoh–not desiring or allowing him space to repent–this cannot be true.

For Scripture says, “the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men” (Titus 2:11) and that God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) Thus, grace appeared to Pharaoh, for God was not willing that Pharaoh should perish. But Pharaoh resisted grace (as some of the Jews resisted the Holy Spirit–Acts 7:51) until God became his enemy and fought against him. For he that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy (Prov. 29:1). Nehemiah 9:10 explains why God used Pharaoh in the way that He did:

You showed signs and wonders against Pharaoh, against all his servants, and against all the people of his land. For You knew that they acted proudly against them. So You made a name for Yourself, as it is this day.

It was because of Pharaoh’s pride and persecution of the Israelites, coupled with Pharaoh’s hardening of his own heart against God’s command, that led to God’s fighting against him for his own destruction. God had the right to use even Pharaoh’s rebellion in order to show His own power and make His name great in all the earth.

Once again, remember that Paul’s theme in Rom. 9 is his countrymen after the flesh–the Israelites who do not believe on Christ, and in fact persecuted the followers of Christ. If these Jews reject the truth, does not God have the right to harden them in their chosen rebellion, and use even their rebellion to make His name great in all the earth, meanwhile saving the Gentiles who repent and believe? Indeed, He does. As Paul and Barnabas testified so boldly before some of the Jews who rejected the gospel:

God’s Right to Save Whom He Wills, Independent of Man’s Tradition.

Read on.

J.
@Johann @GodsGrace @Jim

Johann is this post your personal comments? If yes, then I want to reply ASAP, if not then I'll wait.
 
@Johann

Thanks. I still will answer it, just not now.
I believe @Jim is correct.

Jesus as the Elect One
The Bible explicitly calls Jesus the Elect One, meaning He is the chosen Servant of God, through whom all who believe are also chosen.

Isaiah 42:1 – “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (This prophecy is about the Messiah, fulfilled in Jesus.)

Matthew 12:18 – “Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased.” (Quoted from Isaiah 42:1 and applied to Jesus.)

1 Peter 2:4 – “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious.” (Jesus is the chosen cornerstone.)

Luke 23:35 – “And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.” (Jesus is mocked as the "chosen one"—this confirms His election.)
Jesus is the Elect One because He is the true Servant of Yahweh who fulfills God's redemptive plan.

2. Believers Are Elect in Christ
Believers are not elect apart from Christ but are chosen in Him. This means that election is corporate and tied to union with Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-4 – “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”

Election occurs “in Him”—not apart from Him.
The purpose of election is holiness and love, not arbitrary selection.

2 Timothy 1:9 – “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”

Grace and calling were given in Christ—He is the basis of election.

1 Peter 2:9 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

The corporate nature of election is evident in the church being described as a chosen people.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 – “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Election involves sanctification and belief of the truth, not unconditional selection.

3. Election Is Conditional on Union with Christ
Because election is in Christ, individuals participate in it through faith.

John 3:16 – “Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (Election is tied to belief.)

John 15:4-6 – Jesus says, “Abide in me, and I in you… If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered.” (One must remain in Christ.)

Romans 11:17-22 – Paul speaks of branches (believers) being grafted in Christ, but warns that they can be cut off if they do not continue in faith.
Thus, election is corporate and conditional on faith—one is elect in Christ, but remaining in Him is necessary.

4. The Error of Individualistic Election Apart from Christ

Calvinism often teaches unconditional individual election apart from faith, but this contradicts the biblical emphasis on election in Christ. If election were purely individualistic, there would be no need for faith, yet Scripture always connects election to being in Christ through faith.

Romans 9:30-32 – Israel was chosen but failed because they sought righteousness by works instead of faith.

Matthew 22:14 – “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (The chosen are those who respond in faith.)

Colossians 1:12-13 – Believers are transferred into the kingdom of His dear Son—election is about belonging to Christ.

Jesus is the Elect One (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18), and believers are elect in Him (Ephesians 1:4). Election is not about arbitrary predestination of individuals but about participation in Christ. Those who have faith in Christ are counted as the elect, while those who reject Him are not, even if they were originally part of God's chosen people (Romans 11:17-22).


J.
 
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@Red Baker

--Listen to the other clips.

0:00-Intro
1:20-Series purpose
7:36- What is Calvinism?
14:30-Could you be wrong?
15:25-Total inability vs depravity
21:50-the problem with total depravity
25:42-the Lazarus analogy problem
28:56-Are we spiritually dead?
32:50-Does spiritually dead = unable to believe?
37:54-What did the early church teach? / St Augustne
48:40-Predestination
1:00:44-Were all reformers Calvinistic?
1:00:57-Other beliefs of Augustine
1:03:41-Election
1:16:11-Outro and final thoughts


👉 Try the most affordable Bible study tool that’s unlocking new levels of depth: https://tinyurl.com/63j9dy28


0:00-Intro & welcome
1:19-Regeneration precedes faith
5:15-be resolved but always evaluating
7:27-Discouraged by the lack of charitableness in the comments
8:32-why Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes faith
9:30-monergism vs synergism
16:07-how is faith applied? - the Pelagius boogeyman argument
18:18-the correct way to interpret the Bible
21:34-Scripture affirms human responsibility
27:05-understand Biblical definitions
28:43-How many verses affirm faith preceding regeneration?
29:46-Faith preceding regeneration examples
50:41-Limited atonement
55:54-The Gospel staircase analogy
58:53-The Gospel of John advocates faith precedes regeneration
1:02:42-Outro & Thank you


J.
 
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"For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."~The birth of Isaac was by promise, and without a miracle it would never have taken place. But the birth of Ishmael was not by promise, but in the ordinary course of nature. Thus the children of God specially promised to Abraham were those who, according to the election of the grace of God (who had chosen Isaac in preference to Ishmael), were to come into a spiritual relation with Christ, who is emphatically the promised seed in the line of Isaac, Gal. iii. 16. To them the spiritual blessings were restricted.
In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul uses Abraham's two sons, as an allegory, showing forth the two covenants, the covenants of works, and the covenant of free grace, (speaking about salvation/eternal life, being heirs, etc., not service, or being a channel through which Christ would come, though true, yet that is not what is being taught in Romans nine, not even close) and how each were born by one, or the other. Ismael by the the will of both the flesh and man, represented through the energy of the flesh, by complying to works of the law; the other, Isaac was a son born by the Spirit, according to God's oath and promises. Paul said clearly:

Galatians 4:28-31
“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir, (once again, speaking about salvation, not being used just as a channel through which Jesus would come, that's not even on Paul mind, not even close, and it is easy to, unless one closes his eyes and heart to the truth) with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; "~Paul, as his manner was, added another witness, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall very word be establish as true!

Not only in the case of Isaac was the election limited to him as the son of promise, but also in a still more remarkable instance was this truth indicated in the case of the two sons of Isaac. They were conceived by Rebecca of the same husband, yet God chose the one and rejected the other. An original difference between Isaac and Ishmael might be alleged, since the one was born of the lawful wife of Abraham, the free woman, and the other was the son of the bond woman ; but in the case now brought forward there existed "no original difference." Both were sons of the same father and mother, and both were born at the same time. The great distinction, then, made between the two brothers could only be traced to the sovereign will of God, who thus visibly notified, long before the event, the difference of the Divine purpose, according to election, towards the people of Israel.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"~Johann, this one scripture speaks volumes of exactly what is under consideration, and it leaves no doubt as to what it is, and it has not one thing to do with service, and the farther we venture into Romans nine it will become much more evident as to exactly what the apostle is teaching the church ~ so, let him that hath ears and receive the truth of what Paul is saying.

In the case of Isaac and Ishmael, it might still be said, that as the latter, as soon as he came to years, gave evidence of a wicked disposition, this was a sufficient reason for preferring Isaac. But here, in a parenthesis, the Apostle shows that the preference was given to Jacob independently of all ground of merit, because it was made before the children were capable of doing either good or evil. This was done for the very purpose of taking away all pretence for merit as a ground of preference. Had the preference been given to Jacob when he had grown up to maturity, there would have been no more real ground for ascribing it to anything good in him ; yet that use would have been made of it by the perverse ingenuity of man. But God made the preference before the children were born.

That the purpose of God according to election might stand ~ This was the very end and intention of the early indication of the will of God to Rebecca, the mother of the two children. It was hereby clearly established that, in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God had respect to nothing but His own purpose. Than this what can more strongly declare His own eternal purpose to be the ground of all His favour to man ?

Not of works, but of Him that calleth ~Johann, expressions indicating God's sovereignty in this matter are heaped upon one another, with more to come, because it is a thing so offensive to the human mind. Yet, after all the Apostle's pre caution, the perverseness of men still finds ground of boasting on account of works. Though the children had done neither good nor evil, yet God, it is supposed, might foresee that Jacob would be a godly man, and Esau wicked. But had not God made a difference between Jacob and Esau, Jacob would have been no better than his brother. Were not men blinded by opposition to this part of the will of God, would they not perceive that a preference on account of foreseen good works is a preference on account of works, and therefore expressly contrary to the assertion of the Apostle ~ Not of works, but of Him that calleth ? The whole ground of preference is in Him that calleth, or chooseth, not in him that is called...and the subject under consideration is being an heir of God according to his oath and promises.

Later....RB
 
My no means is he mine. He's too liberal for my taste.
Look real closely at what you just wrote . Yes He is liberal indeed .
Now for a wake up call to all that has breath .
Interfaith finding common ground . DO you beleive it came of the conservative realm
Or of the progressive liberal realm .
ITS TOTALLY OF THE PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL realm .
Yet trump and vance and nar and others push this on the conservative one. THIS IS ALL A SNARE .
 
@ GodsGrace

Fran, dear child of grace, I did not say Paul was "not" speaking about Israel in Romans nine, of course he was, my point being.....while speaking about Israel, he was not speaking of them concerning them being used for service, or a medium through which God is made known to others, or, to carry out his true worship in this world ~ even though that has some truth in it, but not here in Romans nine ~ yet the purpose of Romans nine is to show, while Israel after the flesh did not receive or believe in Christ, that did not mean that the word of God had failed ~ far from that to be the case; Paul went on to show that God's children, and the true seed of Jesus Christ are children of God's promises and oath, and that not all Israel are of Israel (or, or the very elect)....Paul will use two men that came out of the loins of Abraham to prove his teaching, which I shall show very soon, the Lord willing.

The sum is this: Romans nine is addressing salvation from sin and condemnation.... the election under consideration has to do with salvation, not service as many labored to make this to be, so as to reject the true teaching of Paul in this portion of the word of God.

More later....RB
You think I misunderstood you RB...but I didn't because you are ONCE AGAIN stating that THE ELECTION has to do with salvation.

NO.

Romans 9 is not speaking about salvation and especially not on an individual basis.

THE ELECTION has to do with:

1. The NATION of Israel
2. YES....Israel WAS CHOSEN by God from which He would reveal Himself to that area and how HE is the one true God...I stated that this is why He called Abraham out of UR.
It is NOT about salvation from sin and condemnation...THAT WOULD BE PERSONAL.

In Romans 10:18-21 Paul states that God has held out His hand to an obstinate people...The ISRAEILITES...THE NATION OF ISRAEL.
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”


Paul is clearly speaking about the nation of Israel above....he is speaking about corporate salvation..
NOT individual salvation.

Paul will teach further on that God intends to make the Jews jealous by using the faithfulness and belief on the gentiles that were not part of the nation of Israel.


You're right about the question being asked in Romans 9...
it's found here:
Romans 9:6
6 But it is not as
though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Paul is addressing his Jewish brethren here.
He's asking if, since the Jews did not accept Jesus, has the word of God failed?
Has the promise failed? Did God not keep His promise?

He answers this in Romans 9:6-7
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”


Paul is introducing the idea that even though those of the promise may not have believed in Jesus as Messiah,,,,God's word will not have failed because He did promise, through Jesus (David's descendent) salvation to all the world.
Genesis 12:2-3 To Abraham:
2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”



I believe the above shows that Paul was speaking to his Jewish brethren as A NATION,,,
NOT on an individual basis and
NOT for service....I'm not really sure what some would mean by this.

INDIVIDUAL SALVATION is for purpose/service and election is always for purpose or for METHOD.
I agree that Romans 9 is not speaking to this.

But it is Paul speaking to the Jews as a nation.
 
That is not true.
The use of the potter and the clay was one of molding for service, not molding for salvation. We know that because God's use of the clay was to make His power known (v.22). That can only be observed by the service involved. Whether or not salvation even occurred is not observable. Neither then nor now can it be observed whether an individual is lost or saved (John 3:8).
@Jim @Johann @GodsGrace

Jim, This is the Apostle's second answer to the objection contained in the 19th verse, in which, by another reference to Scripture, he asserts that the thing formed ought not to contend with Him that formed it, who has a right to dispose of it as He pleases. The word here employed is variously applied as signifying authority, licence, liberty, right ; but in its application to God there can be no question that it denotes power justly exercised. The mere power or ability of doing what God pleases, cannot be the meaning, for this is not the thing questioned. It is the justice of the procedure that is disputed, and it is consequently the justice of this exercise of power that must be asserted. With respect to all other beings, the licence, liberty, or right referred to, may be, as it is, derived from a superior; but in this sense it cannot refer to God. When, therefore, it is said here that God has power, it must mean that He may, in the instance referred to, use His power in conformity to justice. The right has not a reference to a superior as conferring it, but a reference to His own character, to which all the actions of this sovereignty must be conformable.

Power, then, in this place, signifies right or power which is consistent with justice. It is this right or power according to justice that is here asserted. When the potter moulds the clay into what form he pleases, he does "nothing contrary to justice" ; neither does God do injustice in the exercise of absolute power over His creatures. Out of the same original lump or mass He forms, in His holy sovereignty, one man unto honour, and another unto dishonour, without in any respect violating justice. Here it is implied that as there is no difference between the matter or lump out of which the potter forms diversity of vessels, so there is no difference in mankind, Rom. iii. 22 ; all men — both those who are elected, and those who are rejected, that are made vessels of mercy, or vessels of wrath~ are alike by nature in the same condemnation in which God might in justice have left the whole, but out of which in His holy sovereignty He saves some, while He exercises His justice in pouring out His wrath.

That we are al] in the hand of God, as the clay in the potter's hand, is humbling to the pride of man, yet nothing can be more self-evidently true. If so, God has the same right over us that a potter has over the clay of which he forms his vessels for his own purposes and interest. The same figure as is employed by the Prophet Isaiah, in declaring the right that God had over him and all the people of Israel, God likewise employs, Jer. xviii. 6 : ' O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter ? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel.' A potter forms his vessels for himself, and not for his vessels. This determines the question with respect to God's end in the creation of man. Philosophers can discern no higher end in creating man than that of making him happy. But the chief end of the potter in moulding his vessels has a reference to himself, and God's chief end in making man is His own glory. This is plainly held forth in a multitude of passages in Scripture. Let man strive with his Maker as he will, still he is nothing but the clay in the hand of the potter. There cannot, indeed, be a question but that God will act justly with all His creatures ; but the security for this is in His own character, and we can have no greater security against God's power than His own attributes. God will do His creatures no injustice ; but this is because justice is a part of His own character. Our security for being treated justly by God is in Himself.

One vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ~ Some endeavour to explain this as implying that certain vessels may be made for a less honourable use, while they are still vessels for the Master's service. But it is not said that they are made for a less honourable use, but that they are made to dishonour, is the Apostle's assertion. It is true, indeed, that even vessels employed for dishonourable purposes are useful, and it is equally true that the destruction of the wicked will be for the glory of God. If any are condemned at all, and on any ground whatever, it is certain that it must be for the glory of God, else He would not appoint it to take place.

On the verse before us, and the preceding, it is to be observed that the Apostle does not say that his meaning in what he had previously affirmed had been mistaken, and that he had not said that it was agreeable to the will of God that the hardness of men's hearts should take place as it does ; he implicitly grants this as truth, and that he had asserted it. And so far from palliating or softening down the expression to which the objection is made, if possible, he heightens and strengthens it. All mankind are here represented as originally lying in the same lump or mass; a great difference afterwards appears among them. We ask, where does this difference arise? The Apostle explicitly answers, It is God who makes the difference. As the potter makes one vessel as readily as he makes another, and each vessel takes its form from his hand, so God makes one man to honour and another to dishonour. And God's sovereign right to do this is here asserted ; and he who objects to this, the Apostle says, speaks against God. Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast Thou made me thus ? This representation is entirely consistent with all that the Scriptures elsewhere teach. In the fundamental doctrine of regeneration, and the new creation in Christ Jesus, it is expressly inculcated, and is entirely coincident with the question, "Who maketh thee to differ from another ? " 1st Corinthians 4:7.
 
@Johann @GodsGrace @Jim

Johann is this post your personal comments? If yes, then I want to reply ASAP, if not then I'll wait.
Not sure why you included me in the above post.

I've posted links from YouTube many times when speaking to persons that bring up Romans 9 but then do not continue to address it.

If we're going to have a real discussion,,,I like to use WHAT I UNDERSTAND to be the case.
However I personally understand these 3 chapters...THAT is what I'm going to post.

I don't plan on using links (unless it's something written to better clarify) and I don't plan on using Greek because I never do,,,
I believe we can trust the translators. Language cannot be understood one word at a time.
 
"For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."~The birth of Isaac was by promise, and without a miracle it would never have taken place. But the birth of Ishmael was not by promise, but in the ordinary course of nature. Thus the children of God specially promised to Abraham were those who, according to the election of the grace of God (who had chosen Isaac in preference to Ishmael), were to come into a spiritual relation with Christ, who is emphatically the promised seed in the line of Isaac, Gal. iii. 16. To them the spiritual blessings were restricted.
In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul uses Abraham's two sons, as an allegory, showing forth the two covenants, the covenants of works, and the covenant of free grace, (speaking about salvation/eternal life, being heirs, etc., not service, or being a channel through which Christ would come, though true, yet that is not what is being taught in Romans nine, not even close) and how each were born by one, or the other. Ismael by the the will of both the flesh and man, represented through the energy of the flesh, by complying to works of the law; the other, Isaac was a son born by the Spirit, according to God's oath and promises. Paul said clearly:


Galatians 4:28-31
“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir, (once again, speaking about salvation, not being used just as a channel through which Jesus would come, that's not even on Paul mind, not even close, and it is easy to, unless one closes his eyes and heart to the truth) with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; "~Paul, as his manner was, added another witness, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall very word be establish as true!

Not only in the case of Isaac was the election limited to him as the son of promise, but also in a still more remarkable instance was this truth indicated in the case of the two sons of Isaac. They were conceived by Rebecca of the same husband, yet God chose the one and rejected the other. An original difference between Isaac and Ishmael might be alleged, since the one was born of the lawful wife of Abraham, the free woman, and the other was the son of the bond woman ; but in the case now brought forward there existed "no original difference." Both were sons of the same father and mother, and both were born at the same time. The great distinction, then, made between the two brothers could only be traced to the sovereign will of God, who thus visibly notified, long before the event, the difference of the Divine purpose, according to election, towards the people of Israel.

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of Godaccording to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"~Johann, this one scripture speaks volumes of exactly what is under consideration, and it leaves no doubt as to what it is, and it has not one thing to do with service, and the farther we venture into Romans nine it will become much more evident as to exactly what the apostle is teaching the church ~ so, let him that hath ears and receive the truth of what Paul is saying.

In the case of Isaac and Ishmael, it might still be said, that as the latter, as soon as he came to years, gave evidence of a wicked disposition, this was a sufficient reason for preferring Isaac. But here, in a parenthesis, the Apostle shows that the preference was given to Jacob independently of all ground of merit, because it was made before the children were capable of doing either good or evil. This was done for the very purpose of taking away all pretence for merit as a ground of preference. Had the preference been given to Jacob when he had grown up to maturity, there would have been no more real ground for ascribing it to anything good in him ; yet that use would have been made of it by the perverse ingenuity of man. But God made the preference before the children were born.

That the purpose of God according to election might stand ~ This was the very end and intention of the early indication of the will of God to Rebecca, the mother of the two children. It was hereby clearly established that, in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God had respect to nothing but His own purpose. Than this what can more strongly declare His own eternal purpose to be the ground of all His favour to man ?

Not of works, but of Him that calleth ~Johann, expressions indicating God's sovereignty in this matter are heaped upon one another, with more to come, because it is a thing so offensive to the human mind. Yet, after all the Apostle's pre caution, the perverseness of men still finds ground of boasting on account of works. Though the children had done neither good nor evil, yet God, it is supposed, might foresee that Jacob would be a godly man, and Esau wicked. But had not God made a difference between Jacob and Esau, Jacob would have been no better than his brother. Were not men blinded by opposition to this part of the will of God, would they not perceive that a preference on account of foreseen good works is a preference on account of works, and therefore expressly contrary to the assertion of the Apostle ~ Not of works, but of Him that calleth ? The whole ground of preference is in Him that calleth, or chooseth, not in him that is called...and the subject under consideration is being an heir of God according to his oath and promises.

Later....RB


J.
 
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