Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

The Lord be with you Johann, so sorry for God's children living under such adverse conditions, it is so hard for me to even imagine. 🙏 🙏

Amen......Most are void of common sense, youth even more so....the reason being, it is just not that common any more!
I truly want to have a dialogue with you, brother, but given my current circumstances, it will be very difficult. I believe Fran is doing an excellent job on my behalf.

Johann.
 
Right. Socialism/communism is horrendous.
And to think that some dumb young folk seem to like it. (because they never tried it!).
'nuff said.
Good night...am closing down.
Oh they love it for now cause they are being decieved into thinking about the free stuff
JUST wait till it slams home and then they realize
they was only baited . They always know how to make things sound so good and for for humanity and the poor .
But sister , they simply hold the bag and these elites will steal from the so called redist wealth bag .
ITS Not about humanity , its about power and control .
Its why they are also merging the religions under and by means of a global love religoin .
Its all a farce . But you wanna know what the real lesson is gonna be .
WHEN YA TAKE GOD out of the world , WATCH HOW EVIL takes over .
Interfaith is of anti christ and is but a socially engineered trap set by men to simply merge the religoins
as one to do the work of and to support a cause they beleive will be for the good of humanity
but WOE wail the day it all comes crashing down and the world and the decieved of it
will realize too little too late , THIS IS WHY man , ,humanity was never to be trusted and that
WELL we should have TRUSTED IN GOD , IN CHRIST ALONE .
 
I truly want to have a dialogue with you, brother, but given my current circumstances, it will be very difficult. I believe Fran is doing an excellent job on my behalf.

Johann.
@Johann

Very sorry to hear that such a thing is possible, we take too much for granted in America, way too much.

Johann, were you born there, and how long have you been there, and can you leave for another country? I've heard it said, that we are only a generation removed from losing our freedom, and this is very true for all nations of the earth. We came close back four years ago, so close, that I do not beleive many truly realized how close...and worse than that, not many care, especially so the younger generation. I read this once:

"Corruption in elections is the great enemy of freedom."~ that's how most nations have lost their freedom.

Brother, stay strong, trust God, for better days ahead, so that you can use those days, to better serve his cause in this world....the true only reason why we who beleive are here. 🙏 🙏
 
To the trenches johann . The battle rages on my friend .
For true children of God, it has truly just begun, in the last few years, and will only intensified as this world comes to its end, and it is now marching in that direction at a faster pace than ever before.

Revelation 13:7​

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

"him" is the spirit of the devil forming/bringing together the antichrists' kingdom of this world for the battle of the final days for the souls of all men, and to destroy the very elect , which that will never happen.

Revelation 20:7​

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

I truly believe the thousand years (a totality of time known only to God) ended somewhere back in and around the 1850 plus of minus, for then it was that this world was flooded with false cults, the like it had never seen (Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, Pentecostalism, etc.) in its history, up to this point. Also, the market places of this world were flooded with false versions of the word of God ~ there are versions for every false cult that helps them to convinced their dupes that they are the true worshippers of God, when nothing could be farther from the truth! The little season started around then, and I'm convinced that its days are running out. Maybe more on this in another thread.
 
Last edited:
If I may, something I want to emphasize when it's about Romans 9, what easily can be overlooked.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]

Compare with Rom 1

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Point being, people don't become a vessel of wrath randomly, but for a reason, after God's longsuffering enduring patience.

Same counts for Pharaoh.


1. Paul in Romans chapter one does not say something else in Romans 9.

2. Pharaoh did become a reprobate AFTER God's longsuffeing patience.

3. Because of Pharaoh and what he did to the Hebrews, slavery, murdering babies.

4. God always gave Israel time to repent before judgement, same for Pharaoh.

Please continue with this interesting debate.
 
"It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger"~ We agree with Robert Haldane when he wrote:

"This was a figure of the spiritual election, for in no other point of view is it here to the Apostle's purpose. Not only did God choose one of these sons, who were equal as to their parentage, but chose that one who was inferior in priority of birth, the only point in which there was a difference. He chose the younger son, contrary to the usual custom of mankind, and contrary to the law of primogeniture established by God Himself respecting inheritances in the family of Jacob. The dominion of the younger, then, over the elder, flowed, as is shown in the next verse, from God's love to the one and hatred to the other ; thus proving the election of the one and the reprobation of the other. This strikingly exemplified the manner of God's dealings towards the nation of Israel, in discriminating between those who were the children of the flesh, and the others who were the children of God. How much instruction do these words, '"The elder shall serve the younger," contain, as standing in the connection in which they are here placed, as well as in that part of Scripture from which they are quoted! They practically teach the great fundamental doctrines of the PRESCIENCE, the PROVIDENCE, the SOVEREIGNTY of God ; His PREDESTINATION, ELECTION, and REPROBATION."

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

As it is written~Paul identified the basis, origin, or source of God’s choice of Jacob over his older twin brother. This quotation is taken from Malachi 1:1-5, where nations are considered, but the cause is the key. No doubt the issue of Malachi’s words are a rebuke for Israel not appreciating national favor. However, the basis or source of this national preference was God’s personal election of men. We do not interpret O.T. quotations in the N.T. by their O.T. context, but rather by their N.T. application, where the inspired writer gives us the more spiritual and relevant interpretation.

Jacob have I loved . God spoke in Malachi 1:1-5, and this is a very personal statement, like God to Pharaoh (Rom 9:17).This fact is far more staggering and astonishing than hatred of Esau, for how could He love Jacob?​


But Esau have I hated~ Here we introduce the hatred of God, which is even less known and less popular than reprobation. Most reject God’s hatred for Esau or for human rebels due to their perverse, self-loving hearts. Most reject God’s hatred for Esau or for human rebels due to their gross ignorance of scripture. While many are shocked and angered by God hating anyone, we are amazed He loved anyone. God’s hatred of sinners is an expressly declared and revealed fact about God found in the Bible. The feminine concept that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is not found in the Bible at all.

The Bible declares that God hates sinners (Psalm 5:4-6; 11:4-7; Proverb 6:16-19), but these verses are ignored, glossed over, or rejected by those who think John 3:16 is the extent of revelation. God is holy, and He must hate sin and sinners, no matter how good and loving – this is an easy concept (Hab 1:3; Ps 22:1-3; 34:16; Prov 3:32; 11:20; 16:5; 17:15; Isaiah 6:1-5; Rev 21:27); the only way He can love sinners is to choose them in Christ Jesus, which exalts our salvation. God can and does love only holy objects, so sinners must be in Christ Jesus to be holy and without blame, where He chose them before the foundation of the world (Hab 1:13; Eph 1:4). By saying He never knew the workers of iniquity, He declares He never loved them (Mat 7:23). Though God is love (I John 4:16), He does not love everything (Pr 6:16-19; Zec 8:17; Heb 1:9). God hates bastards (reprobates), for He never shows them the proof of His love (Heb 12:5-8). God’s holy law demands indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish on sinners (Rom 2:8-9).

What about unbelievers? The wrath of God abideth on them (John 3:36). Where is His love? What about the inseparable nature of God’s love (Rom 8:39)? Are any separated? Is it on all? God is angry with the wicked every day, so shall we assign love or hate to them (Psalm 7:11)?

For quotations of others admitting God’s hatred … . God’s hatred of sinners is an obvious and logical extension of His acts in history and in the future.

Why does God-loves-everybody heretics leave Satan out of God’s love? He is greater than they!

Look at Eden! Tell me God does not hate sinners, when He consigned their race to the lake of fire! Look at the Flood! Tell me God does not hate sinners, when He drowned every kind of human! Look at Calvary! What did God pour out on Jesus for the elect? What remains on the wicked?

Why is salvation called reconciliation, if God loves the sinner? Does He love them as enemies? Look at the lake of fire! What do you see? God’s love for the wicked, or His hatred of them?

God’s hatred of sinners is an obvious and logical extension of various other scriptural arguments. God’s man David hated sinners, so God must even more (Psalms 26:5; 31:6; 139:21-22; 2nd Samuel 5:8). That God hates the devil no one denies or questions, but what of his seed (John 8:44; Ephesians 2:3)?

Paul taught a hard doctrine most would question, so he questioned it for them (Rom 9:14-16).

Hatred can definitely be relative in the Bible (Gen 29:30-31; Luke 14:26), but not here; it should only be considered relative when context and Scripture force it to be so, as in the provided texts.

If God loved both boys, Jacob a little more than Esau, how is only one of them a child of God? If God loved both boys, Jacob a little more than Esau, how does this justify vessels of wrath? If God loved both boys, Jacob a little more than Esau, why was Paul so concerned about some? If God loved both boys, Jacob a little more than Esau, does God hate any workers of iniquity? If God loved both boys, Jacob a little more than Esau, is this the difference of heaven and the lake of fire, which is teh second death?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." The Apostle anticipated the objection of the carnal mind to his doctrine. Does not loving Jacob and hating Esau This objection clearly proves that the view taken of the preceding passage is correct. For it is this view which suggests the objection. Is it just in God to love one who has done no good, and to hate one who has done no evil ? If the assertion before they had done any good or evil, imply that there is injustice in God? Respecting loving Jacob and hating Esau admitted of being explained away in the manner that so many do, there could be no place for such an objection. And what is the Apostle's reply ? Nothing but a decided rejection of the supposition that God's treatment of Jacob and Esau implied injustice. By asking the question if there be unrighteousness with God, he strongly denies that in God there is here any injustice ; and this denial is sufficient. According to the doctrine which he every where inculcates, consistently with that of the whole of Scripture, God is represented as infinitely just, as well as wise, holy, good, and faithful. In the exercise of His sovereignty, therefore, all that God wills to do must be in strict conformity with the perfection of His character. He cannot deny Himself; He cannot act inconsistently with any of His Divine attributes. (Robert Haldane)
 
Point being, people don't become a vessel of wrath randomly, but for a reason, after God's longsuffering enduring patience.
Not randomly, but by the will of God, before any does good or evil. That the purpose of God according to election might stand, and stand it will.

It is written:

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)”
 
Not randomly, but by the will of God, before any does good or evil. That the purpose of God according to election might stand, and stand it will.

I don't believe that, there is too much against that.

1. Pharaoh (nobody actually) are born as vessels of wrath, they become.

2. God is impartial, same Paul who said that, same Roman letter, he does not contradict himself a few chapters later.

3. About the blue text I highlighted, I joined the discussion because you can't draw conclusions without pondering about Rom 9:22 first, the patience of the Lord before a notorious sinner becomes a vessel of wrath.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]


It is written:

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)”

I understand that different, see above :)
 
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:16



I would argue that the crux of the many debates regarding Romans 9 rests on what is defined as "it" here. Some see "it" being an individual case-by-case salvation issue thus reading these verses as God unconditionally electing some for salvation and therefore also doing what's called double-predestination in that by electing some for salvation He's equally (deliberately or by omission) electing some for condemnation. The theology of Calvinism rests on this very notion. The problem is this creates a conflict of paramount importance that would describe God contrary to how He's been made known in the rest of scripture. Even well known Calvinists haven't been able to reconcile this conflict often citing Romans 9:20 as a cop-out. While I agree that God is never required to explain Himself, that often He meets us on our level like He did with Jonah (Jonah 4:9-11) and invites us to come and reason together (Isa. 1:18, Prov. 20:25). I believe the Bible is God meeting us on our level.



If "it" means God elects every individual apart from their response and therefore whomever He chooses is unconditionally, irresistibly saved and whomever He doesn't choose, or chooses for hell is unconditionally, irresistibly condemned then much of scripture is found to be in conflict with "it". Men many times have thwarted the will of God in regards to salvation. John 5:39-40, Luke 13:34, Rom. 10:21, Acts 7:51, 2 Peter 2:1, Luke 7:30, to name a few.



Let me rabbit trail on this for a moment,



If "it" is in reference to individual salvation you would have to conclude God doesn't want to save everyone which is contrary to scripture (Gen. 12:3, Eze. 18:23, 32, 33:11, 2 Pet. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, 4:10, Titus 2:11, John 1:7, Heb. 2:9, Acts 3:26, 15:17, Luke 2:10, 6:35, 15:7, 19:10).

You would have to conclude that God doesn't love everyone which is contrary to scripture (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 4:10). You would have to conclude that God wants to condemn people which is contrary to scripture (John 3:17, Eze. 18:23, 32, 33:11), you would have to conclude that God is only putting on a show by drawing all men to Himself (John 1:9, 12:32, 16:8), given they don't have any real option.
You would have to conclude that man has no responsibility, literally that man has no response-ability, as in man cannot respond to the gospel which is contrary to scripture (John 1:12, John 5:39-40, Luke 13:34, Luke 11:9-13, Acts 7:51, Rev. 3:20, John 4:10, Rom. 1:18-20, 10:12-13, 10:21).

You would have to conclude that God is double-tongued (1 Tim. 3:8) on one hand, inviting men to repentance (Acts 17:30, 1 Cor. 14:21), but on the other secretly preventing them from doing so. You would have to conclude that God always gets His way among men which is contrary to scripture (John 5:39-40, Luke 13:34, Rom. 10:21, Acts 7:51, 2 Peter 2:1, Luke 7:30).



And these are just primary points. If you were willing to make the above conclusions then there are a bunch of secondary points you have to manipulate to fit into you theology. You would have to diminish God's love and explain God's motivation to be for another reason such as His glory as to why He gives people life that He may condemn them.

You would have to argue that man doesn't have freewill which is contrary to scripture (1 Cor. 7:37, 7:39, John 7:17, 2 Cor. 8:3, Phile. 1:14, Deut. 30:19, Gen. 2:16-17).

You would have to conclude that Christ didn't die for the sins of all men but only for those whom God chose to pay the penalty for which is contrary to scripture (1 John 2:2, 1 Tim. 4:10, 2:5-6, John 1:29, 3:16-17, 6:33, 6:51, Heb. 2:9, Rom. 5:18, 2 Cor. 5:18-19).

You would have to conclude that God wanted man to sin, not only in the garden with Adam and Eve but with each individual today which again is contrary to scripture (Ecc. 7:29, Jam. 1:13-15, 1 John 2:16, Rom. 1:30, Gen. 1:27, Matt. 25:41). You would have to conclude that the enemy, Satan, hasn't been given an allotted measure of freedom (Job 1:7) but rather he is just doing God's bidding (Matt. 13:19). You would have to conclude that Hell was designed for man per God's plan from the beginning which is contrary to scripture (Matt. 25:41).



For "it" to refer to individual salvation there are many more disturbing conclusions, manipulations, and distortions of scripture that would have to be made as well but I feel we've hammered this pretty good.



So back on track to Romans 9:16 and what does "it" mean if it's not a salvific issue. I believe what fits best as "it" both in what Paul has been speaking of thus far as well as in the verses to come (not to mention the rest of scripture we just covered) is that "it" refers to the fulfillment of God's promise. "It" refers to something much larger than our individual salvation and that's God seeing to it that His purpose, which will be elaborated on in the next two chapters, is not thwarted based on man's zeal, efforts (Rom. 10:2), or lack thereof.

The promise depends on our merciful God, not on the faithfulness ("willing and running") of man.

Abraham "willed and ran" in the flesh to produce a son through Hagar and pleaded with God that God would recognize Ishmael as the promised one (Gen. 17:18), but God chose to not allow His promise to hinge on Abraham's willing and running but maintained it according to His mercy and continued as He elected to (Gen. 17:19), thus providing Isaac through Sarah.



So what is the promise? This is something the Jews would have already been familiar with but us Gentiles not as readily. The promise is God's word (God's word and God's promise are synonymous [Rom. 3:4]). This promise was first given to Abraham (Gen. 22:16-18, Rom. 9:9) and continued to Rebekah (Gen. 25:23, Rom. 9:10), and the Substance of this promise was to Abraham's Seed which Paul makes very clear in Galatians is Jesus Christ.



14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. - Galatians 3:14-18



What Paul wrote above to the Galatians He has been walking through more in depth here in Romans, citing specifics, walking through more in detail how God did it, and meeting us in the OT truths many of the Jews would have already been familiar with (and therefore often leaving out lengthy back story).



How does one partake in this promise? Paul continues later in that same chapter of Galatians:



26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. - Galatians 3:26-29 (emphasis mine)



How does one belong to Christ and therefore become a true descendant of Abraham? "through faith in Christ Jesus." But I am getting ahead of our study; Paul is getting to that near the end of this chapter.



17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” - Romans 9:17



Pharaoh was raised up for what purpose? To demonstrate God's power and that God's name would be proclaimed throughout the whole earth. Paul is showing us how God intervened in order to ensure His purpose stands, in this case, using Pharaoh in order to further the word of God throughout the whole earth (bringing about the Passover and even Rahab, a gentile, was evangelized by the plagues sent against Pharoah [Josh. 2:9-13] Rahab who later we discover in the genealogy of Jesus ([Matt. 1:5]). This isn't an individual salvific issue but rather God seeing to it His word does not fail even if the Israelites enter into unbelief. Before Moses went to Pharaoh he first went to the Israelites and proclaimed good news, but the Israelites did not believe him (Exo. 6:9).



"Raised you up". Many with presuppositions take this to mean God created (gave life to) Pharaoh with this intent but that term does not mean that. In fact, if you read this verse in other versions of the bible it states "Made you king" (TLB, ERV, etc). Paul tells us later that God is the one who establishes governing authorities (Rom. 13:1).



18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. Romans 9:18



Jews would have likely agreed with Paul when he spoke of God hardening Pharaoh, what's clever here is that If the Jews agree that God hardened Pharaoh for His purpose, couldn't He also harden the Jews for His purpose? They would have to agree, or at least they have no solid argument. This is why I believe Paul follows up with what He said of Pharaoh with verse 18 above that God can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants. Jews were okay when God chose Pharaoh for His purpose, but now, in understanding that God did that with Pharaoh they must come to terms that God is allowed to do that with anyone which means to them too.



The Hebrew word for hardened regarding Pharaoh in Exodus 7:22 & 9:12 means "made firm" (Strong's 2388). If you look at the OT accounts of Pharaoh you will see that Pharaoh was already rebellious and with him God had much patience, but ultimately as Pharaoh didn't want to yield to God, therefore God "made firm" his position and used Pharaoh in another way that furthered the knowledge of God throughout the whole world (and we're still reading that account today, so it worked).

Pharaoh wasn't created for rebellion (Ecc. 7:29, 1 John 2:16, Jam. 1:13-15, Gen. 1:27, Matt. 25:41) but after Pharaoh, many times hardening his own heart (cf. Exo. 7:3 where God had not yet hardened Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh's heart already, through the natural consequences of sin was hardening [Exo. 7:22], until Pharaoh ended up intentionally hardening his own heart [Exo. 8:15]).

Therefore God made firm him in his desired state and raised him up for another purpose. God had much patience with Pharaoh as amazingly he does with vessels of wrath as we'll cover in verses 22-23 to come.




God not only harden Pharaoh's heart but He did so in that of Pharaoh's servants (Exo. 10:1). This is what is known as a "judicial hardening" which could be defined as "God's sinless use of sinful actions." Pharaoh and the Egyptions had already hardened their hearts (1 Sam. 6:6). Judicial hardening is often blinding an already rebellious person in their rebellion (Matt. 4:11-12, Rom. 11:8, Acts 28:26-27, 1 Sam. 6:6) so as to prevent their repentance for a time. We'll see in the coming chapters/studies that God does likewise in part to Israel.

As God took opportunity with Pharaoh to spread His word, God likewise hardens the Israelites (Rom. 11:7-10) so that Gentiles could be grafted in (Rom. 11:11). Did God intentionally break off the Israelites from the Vine so that Gentiles could be grafted in? Absurd! Read what Paul concludes later in Romans 11:

I have a different take on Romans 9 than you do brother.

Shalom.

J.
 
I don't believe that, there is too much against that.

1. Pharaoh (nobody actually) are born as vessels of wrath, they become.

2. God is impartial, same Paul who said that, same Roman letter, he does not contradict himself a few chapters later.

3. About the blue text I highlighted, I joined the discussion because you can't draw conclusions without pondering about Rom 9:22 first, the patience of the Lord before a notorious sinner becomes a vessel of wrath.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]




I understand that different, see above :)
Glad you are back @ProDeo.

Johann.
 
I don't believe that, there is too much against that.
@ProDeo

I did not write it, the Spirit of the Living God did ~ why would you be so bold as to reject it? At least you could have said, I'm going to look into that scripture and see how I can make it flow with all others ~ but to make such a bold statement is not wise on your part ~I pray you would reconsider your bold statement.
1. Pharaoh (nobody actually) are born as vessels of wrath, they become.
Stop and consider what you saying, basically by your confession, you are saying, God created man and sat back to see (as though he does not know the end from the beginning and all things work according to the determined council of God) what each would do, and then determined who would be vessels of mercy, and vessels of wrath based upon their own work, good or evil which is totally diametrical opposite of what the scriptures teach.

THE DECREE OF GOD is His purpose or determination with respect to future things. We have used the singular number as Scripture does (Rom 8:28; Eph 3:11), because there was only one act of His infinite mind about future things. But we speak as if there had been many, because our minds are only capable of thinking of successive revolutions, as thoughts and occasions arise, or in reference to the various objects of His decree, which being many seem to us to require a distinct purpose for each one. But an infinite understanding does not proceed by steps, from one stage to another: “Known unto God are all His works, from the beginning of the world” (Acts 15:18).

The Scriptures make mention of the decrees of God in many passages, and under a variety of terms. The word “decree” is found in Psalm 2:7, etc. In Ephesians 3:11 we read of His “eternal purpose.” In Acts 2:23 of His “determinate counsel and foreknowledge.” In Ephesians 1:9 of the mystery of His “will.” In Romans 8:29 that He also did “predestinate.” In Ephesians 1:9 of His “good pleasure.” God’s decrees are called His “counsel” to signify they are consummately wise. They are called God’s “will” to show He was under no control, but acted according to His own pleasure. When a man’s will is the rule of his conduct, it is usually capricious and unreasonable; but wisdom is always associated with “will” in the Divine proceedings, and accordingly, God’s decrees are said to be “the counsel of His own will” (Eph 1:11).

The decrees of God relate to all future things without exception: whatever is done in time was foreordained before time began. God’s purpose was concerned with everything, whether great or small, whether good or evil, although with reference to the latter we must be careful to state that while God is the Ordered and Controller of sin, He is not the Author of it in the same way that He is the Author of Good. Sin could not proceed from a holy God by positive and direct creation, but only by decretive permission and negative action. God’s decree is as comprehensive as His government, extending to all creatures and all events. It was concerned about our life and death; about our state in time, and our state in eternity. As God works all things after the counsel of His own will, we learn from His works what His counsel is (was), as we judge of an architect’s plan by inspecting the building which was erected under his directions.

God did not merely decree to make man, place him upon the earth, and then leave him to his own uncontrolled guidance; instead, He fixed all the circumstances in the lot of individuals, and all the particulars which will comprise the history of the human race from its commencement to its close. He did not merely decree that general laws should be established for the government of the world, but He settled the application of those laws to all particular cases. Our days are numbered, and so are the hairs of our heads. We may learn what is the extent of the Divine decrees from the dispensations of providence, in which they are executed. The care of Providence reaches to the most insignificant creatures, and the most minute events—the death of a sparrow, and the fall of a hair. More later​
2. God is impartial, same Paul who said that, same Roman letter, he does not contradict himself a few chapters later.
You need to put a proper sense upon what is written.

Acts 10:34​

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:”

God does not respect Jews over Gentiles, rich over poor, the wise over the unwise, etc., But He does indeed respect people's person AMONG THESE GROUPS, for the scriptures makes this abundantly clear. Time would fail us to speak of Israel of old, Abraham, Jacob, David, each of he apostles, etc.
3. About the blue text I highlighted, I joined the discussion because you can't draw conclusions without pondering about Rom 9:22 first, the patience of the Lord before a notorious sinner become a vessel of wrath.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]
Coming back after a meeting to look into these scriptures.

Thanks for posting.
 
Stop and consider what you saying, basically by your confession, you are saying, God created man and sat back to see (as though he does not know the end from the beginning and all things work according to the determined council of God) what each would do, and then determined who would be vessels of mercy, and vessels of wrath based upon their own work, good or evil which is totally diametrical opposite of what the scriptures teach.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

When I first turned from Calvinism and began to email back and forth with one of my more studied Calvinist friends, I offered my alternative interpretation of these verses, to which he responded, “we need to walk through this. I cannot understand this text in any other way than to understand that God has indeed predestined before the foundations of the world that there would be vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, for His own glory.”

First, I had to point out to him the leaps my friend had made:

(1) There is no mention of “before the foundations of the world” anywhere in the passage; and

(2) He had moved from “God… endured with much patience” to “God … predestined … vessels of wrath … for destruction, for His own glory.”


Next, I questioned how he understood a few other New Testament texts which seemed to me to carry the same idea: Ephesians 2, Romans 2:4-5, 2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.

In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy.

In Romans 2:4-5, we see that God’s patience is meant to turn vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy; those who refuse to repent are preparing themselves for destruction:

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Likewise in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”

And 2 Tim 2:20-21, perhaps the clearest of all, says:

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

As Calvinist Bill MacDonald wrote, against the common Calvinist view,
“God does not prepare vessels of wrath for destruction, but he does prepare vessels of mercy for glory“.[9]

FF Bruce takes much the same approach:

While Paul will allow no questioning of God’s right to do what He will with His own, he lets his emphasis fall, not on God’s wrath towards the reprobate, but rather the postponement of His wrath against men who have long since become ripe for destruction. As has been pointed out earlier (2:4), the mercy and forbearance of God are intended to afford men time for repentance; if, instead, they harden their hearts yet more, as Pharaoh did after repeated respites, they are simply storing up an increasing weight of retribution for themselves against the day of requital. [10]


Excerpt from Leighton.

As I concur with @ProDeo.

J.
 
If there be some whom God has elected unto salvation (2nd Thess. 2:13), and he did, there must be others who are not elected unto salvation.
That is certainly true. But the question is not whether God has elected some unto salvation and others who are not elected unto salvation; rather the question is on what basis does God elect some unto salvation and others not. According to the Calvinist/Reformed Theology doctrine, we read the following or very similar:

"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace" (https://theologue.wordpress.com/wp-...efivepointsofcalvinismexplained-lboettner.pdf).

That is absolute nonsense. So much so that it wipes away any and all rational purpose even for this physical creation. If God wanted to predestinate a select number of beings unto life without any foresight of faith or any consideration of the individual being He could certainly have done that without the need or reason for the creation and without the need for predestinating all the rest of humanity for eternal condemnation. Given the number of beings predestinated to eternal condemnation versus the number of beings predestinated unto life it must be concluded that God was much, much more interested in the predestinating to eternal condemnation and that was much more to the praise of His glorious grace.

What an awful heinous and despicable view of God. That any would think that God would create almost the entire company of mankind for the sheer pleasure of assigning most of them to eternal condemnation without any consideration of them individually is repugnant, vile and abominable. There is no amount of twisting of scripture that can make it otherwise. That view, by any consideration of God as a merciful and kind spiritual being, is absurd.

I suppose one could look upon himself, declare that he is one of those predestinated unto life, and give praise and glory to God. What an enormously egocentric mindset that demands. That is precisely the view of the Pharisee in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector of Luke 18.
 
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

When I first turned from Calvinism and began to email back and forth with one of my more studied Calvinist friends, I offered my alternative interpretation of these verses, to which he responded, “we need to walk through this. I cannot understand this text in any other way than to understand that God has indeed predestined before the foundations of the world that there would be vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, for His own glory.”

First, I had to point out to him the leaps my friend had made:

(1) There is no mention of “before the foundations of the world” anywhere in the passage; and

(2) He had moved from “God… endured with much patience” to “God … predestined … vessels of wrath … for destruction, for His own glory.”


Next, I questioned how he understood a few other New Testament texts which seemed to me to carry the same idea: Ephesians 2, Romans 2:4-5, 2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.

In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy.

In Romans 2:4-5, we see that God’s patience is meant to turn vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy; those who refuse to repent are preparing themselves for destruction:

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Likewise in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”

And 2 Tim 2:20-21, perhaps the clearest of all, says:

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

As Calvinist Bill MacDonald wrote, against the common Calvinist view,
“God does not prepare vessels of wrath for destruction, but he does prepare vessels of mercy for glory“.[9]

FF Bruce takes much the same approach:

While Paul will allow no questioning of God’s right to do what He will with His own, he lets his emphasis fall, not on God’s wrath towards the reprobate, but rather the postponement of His wrath against men who have long since become ripe for destruction. As has been pointed out earlier (2:4), the mercy and forbearance of God are intended to afford men time for repentance; if, instead, they harden their hearts yet more, as Pharaoh did after repeated respites, they are simply storing up an increasing weight of retribution for themselves against the day of requital. [10]


Excerpt from Leighton.

As I concur with @ProDeo.

J.
The views of Bill MacDonald and FF Bruce are irrational and futile attempts to disavow double predestination. It does display the despicable view of God that is presented by Calvinism/Reformed Theology.
 
3. About the blue text I highlighted, I joined the discussion because you can't draw conclusions without pondering about Rom 9:22 first, the patience of the Lord before a notorious sinner becomes a vessel of wrath.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [ESV]

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [KJV]
@ProDeo

Romans 9:22~"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
In this and the following verse, in which the substance of the doctrine of predestination is contained in a few words, the Apostle gives his third and final answer to the objection stated in the 19th verse, subjoining the reasons of God’s different proceedings with one man and with another. Hereby God manifests His great displeasure against sin, and His power to take vengeance on sinners; He exercises great patience towards them, seeing they are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction by their own wickedness, to which God shuts them up in His judgment. On the other hand, what can be said against it, if He proceed in mercy with others, thereby manifesting the riches of His glory, or His glorious grace, since they are vessels of mercy, whom, by His sovereign election from eternity, and the sanctification of His Spirit in time, He had afore prepared unto glory? The sum of the Apostle’s answer here is, that the grand object of God, both in the election and the reprobation of men, is that which is paramount to all things else in the creation of the universe, namely, His own glory. With the assertion of this doctrine, however offensive to the natural man, which must always appear to him foolishness, Paul winds up, in the last verse of the eleventh chapter, the whole of his previous discussion in this Epistle.

What if God, God, willing to show His wrath ~ Here the purpose of God, in enduring the wicked in this world, is expressly stated to arise from His willingness to show His wrath against sin. We see, then, that the entrance of sin into the world was necessary to manifest the Divine character in His justice and hatred of sin. Had sin never entered into the creation of God, His character would never have been fully developed ~ impossible. Let wicked men hear what God says in this place. They flatter themselves that in some way, through mercy, or because great severity, they suppose, would not be just, they will finally escape. But God here declares by the Apostle, that He has endured sin in the world for the very purpose of glorifying Himself in its punishment. How, then, shall they escape?

And to make His power known ~ The entranceof sin was also an occasion of manifesting God’s power and wisdom in overruling it for His glory. The power or ability of God, according to the word used here, is different from the power in the preceding verse, as is strikingly seen in this place. The 21st verse asserts the right of God to act in the manner supposed; this verse shows that His doing so was to manifest His wrath against sin, and His power to make even sin to glorify His name. Sin is in its own nature to God’s dishonor. He has overruled it so that He has turned it to His glory. This is the most wonderful display of power.

Endured with much long-suffering ~ How often do men wonder that God endures so much sin as appears in the world. Why does not God immediately cut off transgressors? Why does He not make an end of them at once? The answer is, He endures them for His own glory, and in their condemnation He will be glorified. To short-sighted mortals, it would appear preferable if God would cut off in childhood all whom He foresaw should continue in wickedness. But God endures them to old age, and to the utmost bounds of wickedness, for the glory of His own name.

Vessels of wrath ~ vessels "full of the fury of the Lord,"~ Isaiah 51:20. Here Paul calls the wicked vessels, in allusion to the figure which he had just before used.

Fitted to destruction ~They are vessels, indeed, but they are vessels of wrath, and by their sins they are fitted for destruction; and it is in the counsel of Jehovah that this shall be so. Please note well, @ProDeo .....Fitted to destruction! This scriptures has a total different sense to it than what you desire to place upon it~~you need to reconsider this verse again, in light of the context in which it is found.
 
The views of Bill MacDonald and FF Bruce are irrational and futile attempts to disavow double predestination. It does display the despicable view of God that is presented by Calvinism/Reformed Theology.
Like this? And I quote Ryan @Jim unless, of course, you can give me directives on solid exegesis online?


J.
 
For true children of God, it has truly just begun, in the last few years, and will only intensified as this world comes to its end, and it is now marching in that direction at a faster pace than ever before.

Revelation 13:7​

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

"him" is the spirit of the devil forming/bringing together the antichrists' kingdom of this world for the battle of the final days for the souls of all men, and to destroy the very elect , which that will never happen.

Revelation 20:7​

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

I truly believe the thousand years (a totality of time known only to God) ended somewhere back in and around the 1850 plus of minus, for then it was that this world was flooded with false cults, the like it had never seen (Mormonism, SDA, Jehovah Witnesses, Pentecostalism, etc.) in its history, up to this point. Also, the market places of this world were flooded with false versions of the word of God ~ there are versions for every false cult that helps them to convinced their dupes that they are the true worshippers of God, when nothing could be farther from the truth! The little season started around then, and I'm convinced that its days are running out. Maybe more on this in another thread.
what we are witnessing is that which is of anti christ , the working of inquity .
It has been since even the days of paul . But you are right to notice it has been increasing
and specially as of late .
Would you like to know how they truly lulled them into this snare .
They came with seeker friendly and a popular book known as rick warrens purpose driven life .
They tricked them and specially with terms like being inclusive , non judgmental .
What they did was actually hate .
But the church was taught it as love and as being loving .
YE shall NOT hate your neighbor in your heart you shall in any way correct him and NOT allow sin upon him .
That through tolerance and inclusivity became ye shall not hate your neighbor BY JUDGING and correcting his error .
IT was slick and that is how leaven took the high ground as it was NOT being corrected
and as doctrine was replaced more and more with a senusal love , IT TOOK whole houses and leavened them up
PREPARING their hearts and minds , NOT FOR GOD , HIS CHRIST but for that which is of anti christ .
IT is NOT loving your neighbor by allowing him to remain in sin
Its hate . there is no love in that .
GOD has compassion so HE did and does warn and sends people to warn .
But due to a false love in the name of being tolerant , MANY have learned to hate their neighbor and yet believe
its love to allow them to remain in sin and now its grown to even allowing UNBELIEF upon the false religoins .
ITS GETTING WORSE and will do so to the end .
 
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

When I first turned from Calvinism and began to email back and forth with one of my more studied Calvinist friends, I offered my alternative interpretation of these verses, to which he responded, “we need to walk through this. I cannot understand this text in any other way than to understand that God has indeed predestined before the foundations of the world that there would be vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, for His own glory.”

First, I had to point out to him the leaps my friend had made:

(1) There is no mention of “before the foundations of the world” anywhere in the passage; and

(2) He had moved from “God… endured with much patience” to “God … predestined … vessels of wrath … for destruction, for His own glory.”


Next, I questioned how he understood a few other New Testament texts which seemed to me to carry the same idea: Ephesians 2, Romans 2:4-5, 2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.

In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy.

In Romans 2:4-5, we see that God’s patience is meant to turn vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy; those who refuse to repent are preparing themselves for destruction:

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Likewise in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”

And 2 Tim 2:20-21, perhaps the clearest of all, says:

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

As Calvinist Bill MacDonald wrote, against the common Calvinist view,
“God does not prepare vessels of wrath for destruction, but he does prepare vessels of mercy for glory“.[9]

FF Bruce takes much the same approach:

While Paul will allow no questioning of God’s right to do what He will with His own, he lets his emphasis fall, not on God’s wrath towards the reprobate, but rather the postponement of His wrath against men who have long since become ripe for destruction. As has been pointed out earlier (2:4), the mercy and forbearance of God are intended to afford men time for repentance; if, instead, they harden their hearts yet more, as Pharaoh did after repeated respites, they are simply storing up an increasing weight of retribution for themselves against the day of requital. [10]


Excerpt from Leighton.

As I concur with @ProDeo.

J.
Shall the pot say to the maker why has thou made me thus .
You would be suprised that i have often heard that very answer by people .
WELL HOW COME GOD made us like this , HOW come , how come
Why did he give us choice or etc . GOD DO as HE DO . HE DID make the way out of sin and the way to BE SAVED .
I bet if anyone was drowning in the ocean
and a man came and cried i am throwing you this flotation device grab ahold of it
They would not sit and try and criticise , they would GRAB HOLD for dear life .
And yet GOD has given the world a TRUE LIFE LINE to have ETERNAL LIFE and not perish , JESUS CHRIST ,
and yet folks refuse this and rather blame GOD . JESUS said why this was
They will not come to me for men love darkness , lest their evil deeds be reproved .
People are drowning in sin and yet not only will a lot of churches not correct them
now many withing even christendom will not even tell the LOST religoins of the dire need to repent and beleive .
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom