Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[Jim]

Like this? And I quote Ryan @Jim unless, of course, you can give me directives on solid exegesis online?

J.

So much of the Augustinian/Calvinist concept of predestination is derived from Romans 9:29-30. But they completely dismiss or reassign verse 28 in doing so. The word "For" at the beginning of verse 29 is from the Greek ὅτι [hoti] meaning causatively "because" which relates directly back to verse 28 and refers to "those who love God". What follows in verses 29 and 30 speaks directly about those who love God. It is those whom God foreknows that love Him that He predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies.

Scripture begins that passage with those who love God. Calvinists rewrite that passage so that those whom God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies then become the ones up loving God. Calvinists are wrong. And it all derives from the Augustinian Gnosticism that the physical is inherently, and God directed, evil.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Seems like much evil has been accepted in the name of what they think is being loving and tolerant
But take heed that the longer this so called sensual love has held them in captivity ,
that now even unbelief is becoming accepted and Truth is being more and more hated and rejected as they holler God is love .
SOMEONE has decieved this people
and has used false leaders and others to bring a heavy deception unto this people .
and that so called love deception will save none and lead them all to perdition .
ANY GUESSES on who would do that . A hint NOT GOD , the devil would seeing he desires only death for humanity .

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh they love it for now cause they are being decieved into thinking about the free stuff
JUST wait till it slams home and then they realize
they was only baited . They always know how to make things sound so good and for for humanity and the poor .

Exactly. It sounds good to get things for free.
Once candidate was offering free college to all a few years ago...
and other free goodies.
Well, nothing in life is free and we end up paying for everything.
Look at the waste that is being discovered -- worse than we even imagined.
In socialist countries it's even worse because the govt controls everything.
They take your money,,,,give crumbs in return....and expect you to be HAPPY about it !

But sister , they simply hold the bag and these elites will steal from the so called redist wealth bag .
ITS Not about humanity , its about power and control .

Amen.

Its why they are also merging the religions under and by means of a global love religoin .
Its all a farce . But you wanna know what the real lesson is gonna be .
WHEN YA TAKE GOD out of the world , WATCH HOW EVIL takes over .
Interfaith is of anti christ and is but a socially engineered trap set by men to simply merge the religoins
as one to do the work of and to support a cause they beleive will be for the good of humanity
but WOE wail the day it all comes crashing down and the world and the decieved of it
will realize too little too late , THIS IS WHY man , ,humanity was never to be trusted and that
WELL we should have TRUSTED IN GOD , IN CHRIST ALONE .

Agreed on all.

 

[Johann]

So much of the Augustinian/Calvinist concept of predestination is derived from Romans 9:29-30. But they completely dismiss or reassign verse 28 in doing so. The word "For" at the beginning of verse 29 is from the Greek ὅτι [hoti] meaning causatively "because" which relates directly back to verse 28 and refers to "those who love God". What follows in verses 29 and 30 speaks directly about those who love God. It is those whom God foreknows that love Him that He predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies.

Scripture begins that passage with those who love God. Calvinists rewrite that passage so that those whom God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies then become the ones up loving God. Calvinists are wrong. And it all derives from the Augustinian Gnosticism that the physical is inherently, and God directed, evil.

I concur-see if you agree with this short except--

Now, I know that many will still keep their “For there is no difference…” stance, but this is where there is a difference.

That quote…it’s NOT discussing salvation in the generic sense. This is a conversation about the JEWS salvation, as opposed to the GENTILES salvation.

Do we happen to forget that God told the Jews to WORK for their salvation? That’s what the Law was all about. God told them to follow the law.

Now, why did he not give the law to Abraham to pass down from generation to generation? Why did God wait until Moses came along?

You see, if you are going to have a conversation about Romans 9, the least you can do is to first read the whole bible and find out the storyline, instead of using the flaps on the cover of the book.

There is 2 types of RIGHTEOUSNESS being discussed here. One is by the law, and one isn’t. The other is just by believing God’s promises, just like Abraham…the forgotten man that no one seems to talk about.

The Jews are BLIND. God set Jesus as a STUMBLING STONE.

Now, if you know about the law in the bible, it is a sin to set a stumbling stone in front of a blind person, because they may trip and fall. There is a penalty for doing that. But God set Jesus in front of them to trip over.

And lastly, Romans 9 can’t be dealt with until you finish the conversation in Romans 11.

In Essence, it’s about the Jews pursuit of righteousness under the law…and before the law, God gave Abraham a promise of a small piece of real estate, so they all have to get cirucumcised to receive it.

But Romans 9 is stating that the Jews CANNOT seek righteousness by faith, because they are blind. They fail because they are blind.

And lastly, Romans 4:15 tells us about the WRATH of God.

Romans 9 has nothing to to with Soteriology at all. It’s not about salvation. It’s about the Jews were chosen for a purpose to show the power of God, just like the Pharaoh was…and in the end, THEY GET MERCY, just like the Pharaoh did--

Thanks.

J.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Exactly. It sounds good to get things for free.
Once candidate was offering free college to all a few years ago...
and other free goodies.
Well, nothing in life is free and we end up paying for everything.
Look at the waste that is being discovered -- worse than we even imagined.
In socialist countries it's even worse because the govt controls everything.
They take your money,,,,give crumbs in return....and expect you to be HAPPY about it !

Amen.

Agreed on all.

This is also why they had to remold churches from within .
You see they need to make govt all mighty the god
and true christains would put GOD first and thus would not heed a govts will
that does contrary to GOD .
In communism , GOD IS NOT to be put first
GOVT IS .
Thus preach a message that sounds like it is for the cause and good of humanity and of the world .
AND YET that message, once the power is attained , SURE SEEMS TO support NOT humanity
BUT THE LEADERS . ITS ALL A SNARE SISTER and none of it will work to the good of man .
So my advice is its time for the churches TO PUT GOD CHRIST FIRST again
learn that bible and do all to build one another up WITH BIBLICAL doctrine , not with false sensual love that destroys the people .
They were slick sister . Did you know that men actually marveled in secrete at HOW hitler
was able to come to power . They learned of evil and have been socially engineering those tatics
upon society and within the false religoins as well as within Christendom . Worse still
is the fact this socially engineered ecumincilasim so called , CAME from men in wool . They appeared as a lamb
but spoke as dragons . this is not about to bode well for society and even a lot of christendom .
For ye reap what ye sow too . and he who sows to the flesh , and he whose hopes be in men
ARe cursed as they will be led captive to destruction . Aint No man infallible , ONLY GOD IS , CHRIST IS
and HIS words BE TRUTH and shall ring true forever . its time we bible up sister . as i am sure you do agree .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Exactly. It sounds good to get things for free.
Once candidate was offering free college to all a few years ago...
and other free goodies.
Well, nothing in life is free and we end up paying for everything.
Look at the waste that is being discovered -- worse than we even imagined.
In socialist countries it's even worse because the govt controls everything.
They take your money,,,,give crumbs in return....and expect you to be HAPPY about it !

Amen.

Agreed on all.

When the cry came to support redist of wealth and how it would be for the poor ,
Guess what first popped into my mind .
THIS DID .
This could have been sold and the money given to the poor
BUT this , said JUDAS ISCARIOT not because HE cared for the poor but because he held the bag
and kept what was put therein . This stuff is evil , They in PRETENSE care for the poor
BUT NO mam, ITS THE MONEY , POWER and Control they care about .

 

[civic]

the Potter/Clay

Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

1- who spoiled the clay ?

It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.

Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,

“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.

The condition of the clay and the potter. God declares if you repent then I will not bring upon you these disasters/wrath/judgements.

Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.


In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.

Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

Romans 9 has nothing to to with Soteriology at all. It’s not about salvation. It’s about the Jews were chosen for a purpose to show the power of God, just like the Pharaoh was…and in the end, THEY GET MERCY, just like the Pharaoh did--

Thanks.

J.

Yes, I agree. And actually, Romans 9 is about Paul's rebutting the Jews thinking that since they were God's chosen people, then they, the Jews, must be saved. That is where Paul begins the discussion. And he ends the discussion by saying that those who are lost are lost because they did not pursue righteousness by faith. They are saved by faith, not by election, i.e., not by predestination. "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" (Rom 9:33).

 

[Johann]

Yes, I agree. And actually, Romans 9 is about Paul's rebutting the Jews thinking that since they were God's chosen people, then they, the Jews, must be saved. That is where Paul begins the discussion. And he ends the discussion by saying that those who are lost are lost because they did not pursue righteousness by faith. They are saved by faith, not by election, i.e., not by predestination. "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" (Rom 9:33).

Well, that settles it-a decisive refutation of Manichaeism, determinism, fatalism, and Gnosticism.

Thanks Jim.

J.

 

[civic]

Well, that settles it-a decisive refutation of Manichaeism, determinism, fatalism, and Gnosticism.

Thanks Jim.

J.

you left out the synonym calvinism

 

[Johann]

you left out the synonym calvinism

--and Augustine.

J.

 

[civic]

--and Augustine.

J.

ditto

 

[GodsGrace]

This is also why they had to remold churches from within .
You see they need to make govt all mighty the god
and true christains would put GOD first and thus would not heed a govts will
that does contrary to GOD .
In communism , GOD IS NOT to be put first
GOVT IS .

Right. Or outlawed altogether.

Thus preach a message that sounds like it is for the cause and good of humanity and of the world .
AND YET that message, once the power is attained , SURE SEEMS TO support NOT humanity
BUT THE LEADERS . ITS ALL A SNARE SISTER and none of it will work to the good of man .
So my advice is its time for the churches TO PUT GOD CHRIST FIRST again
learn that bible and do all to build one another up WITH BIBLICAL doctrine , not with false sensual love that destroys the people .
They were slick sister . Did you know that men actually marveled in secrete at HOW hitler
was able to come to power .

Agreed.
It's not easy to do what he did....
Have to get the people ready for it first...
little by little....
create someone to hate...
dehumanize them so they're thought of as being worse than an animal.

They learned of evil and have been socially engineering those tatics
upon society and within the false religoins as well as within Christendom . Worse still
is the fact this socially engineered ecumincilasim so called , CAME from men in wool . They appeared as a lamb
but spoke as dragons . this is not about to bode well for society and even a lot of christendom .
For ye reap what ye sow too . and he who sows to the flesh , and he whose hopes be in men
ARe cursed as they will be led captive to destruction . Aint No man infallible , ONLY GOD IS , CHRIST IS
and HIS words BE TRUTH and shall ring true forever . its time we bible up sister . as i am sure you do agree .

You know...Christianity is the cause for the western civilization...
for universities, art, everything that makes us civil.
If our Christianity goes...so will our western civilization.

 

[GodsGrace]

I for the most part work from scratch in posting and most of the time in answering post, but do occasionally copy and paste.

RB...I'm not saying it's not from scratch...
What I WILL say is that if it's from scratch, it must take you much more than an hour to write that post you sent to me.
I spent more than 30 minutes on mine and it wasn't half as much and I didn't even get to everything I would have liked to write.

Anyway,,,let's say this:
ONLY the reformed/calvinist theologians understand Romans 9 the way they do.
NO OTHER denomination accepts their rendering.
This would give me pause.

I came out of the CC about 40 years ago.
If EVERY OTHER denomination believed in, let's say, confession...
but my denomination DID NOT,,,it would make me stop and reconsider.

I think this is a valid point and I do make if often.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I agree. And actually, Romans 9 is about Paul's rebutting the Jews thinking that since they were God's chosen people, then they, the Jews, must be saved. That is where Paul begins the discussion. And he ends the discussion by saying that those who are lost are lost because they did not pursue righteousness by faith. They are saved by faith, not by election, i.e., not by predestination. "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" (Rom 9:33).

I have often said that he last few verses of Romans 9 kills the entire concept of how it's understood by the reformed/calvinist theology.

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

Calvinism teaches that we are UNABLE to pursue righteousnes...
and yet they attaned it...HOW
by FAITH.

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

More about pursuing....something man is SUPPOSED to be UNABLE to do.

32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Why would Paul be speaking about STUMBLING over the stumbling stone
IF it is God that decrees everything?
Did God not know what He was doing??!!

 

[civic]

I have often said that he last few verses of Romans 9 kills the entire concept of how it's understood by the reformed/calvinist theology.

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

Calvinism teaches that we are UNABLE to pursue righteousnes...
and yet they attaned it...HOW
by FAITH.

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

More about pursuing....something man is SUPPOSED to be UNABLE to do.

32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Why would Paul be speaking about STUMBLING over the stumbling stone
IF it is God that decrees everything?
Did God not know what He was doing??!!

notice the words- they did not pursue is by faith- that should end the discussion. its on them, not God.

its unbelievable how some will disregard the simple and plain meaning of the text and then add or take away from it to make is say what their man made doctrine teaches. its called eisegesis.

 

[GodsGrace]

notice the words- they did not pursue is by faith- that should end the discussion. its on them, not God.

its unbelievable how some will disregard the simple and plain meaning of the text and then add or take away from it to make is say what their man made doctrine teaches. its called eisegesis.

Amen to that!
(but they say WE eisegete!)

 

[GodsGrace]

So much of the Augustinian/Calvinist concept of predestination is derived from Romans 9:29-30. But they completely dismiss or reassign verse 28 in doing so. The word "For" at the beginning of verse 29 is from the Greek ὅτι [hoti] meaning causatively "because" which relates directly back to verse 28 and refers to "those who love God". What follows in verses 29 and 30 speaks directly about those who love God. It is those whom God foreknows that love Him that He predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies.

Scripture begins that passage with those who love God. Calvinists rewrite that passage so that those whom God predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies then become the ones up loving God. Calvinists are wrong. And it all derives from the Augustinian Gnosticism that the physical is inherently, and God directed, evil.

Augustine derived his belief system from the idea of depravity.
If man was so depraved....then he would be UNABLE to seek God...
so God had to do everything...monergism.
If God had to do everything then, by necessity, man could not have free will.

Sounds like you know about Augustine, so I'll leave it at that.
He DID believe in free will when he first entered the Catholic faith...

 

[Red Baker]

RB...I'm not saying it's not from scratch...
What I WILL say is that if it's from scratch, it must take you much more than an hour to write that post you sent to me.
I spent more than 30 minutes on mine and it wasn't half as much and I didn't even get to everything I would have liked to write.

@GodsGrace

I spend a few hours a day writings and posting. Sometimes my one post may take more than two hours, but always an hour or more if it has any substances to it. Sometimes I may copy and paste something that I have written over the years; sometimes from others I have read behind and remembered how it helped me, etc. No set pattern for me.

Jim should know me more than anyone here ~ Jim has read much of my writings since we have went back and forth for many years.. I also know his inside and out.

I'm still under the weather and not feeling that great since I'm taking much medicine for my infection, and my oh my, I have water flying out of every part where it can escape!

But, I just got up from a nap and see I have work to do, and work I will ASAP.

You know...Christianity is the cause for the western civilization...
for universities, art, everything that makes us civil.
If our Christianity goes...so will our western civilization.

This is a very true saying, most all of the institutes of higher learning in America all were started by Calvinism~Yale, Harvard, Princeton, University of Penn, Northwestern, etc.

I read this a few years back: https://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/calvinism-in-history/ It is at least worthy to read even if one hates Calvinism, the facts a cannot be denied.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Right. Or outlawed altogether.


Agreed.
It's not easy to do what he did....
Have to get the people ready for it first...
little by little....
create someone to hate...
dehumanize them so they're thought of as being worse than an animal.


You know...Christianity is the cause for the western civilization...
for universities, art, everything that makes us civil.
If our Christianity goes...so will our western civilization.

Lets look again at your first response . You said Right or OUTLAWED altogether .
YOU RIGHT SISTAH . true biblical christainity will be outlawed .
OH and many within christendom will even love to have had this so .
THE ONLY FORM of RELIGOIN that will be tolerated and allowed , IS THE ALL INCLUSIVE JUDGE NOT
speak not against, warn not, just go with the flow and unify RELIGOIN .
AND EVERY false religoin itself is already been programmed to go with this flow as well .
People should have READ the religious tolerance act and paid Attention .
For when a law protects ones rights , it protects all the rights included on that list .
And what is its law . YE cannot hate , aka speak against , warn against any group on said list .
Now it do include the christain , and it do include even the homo sexual .
SO GUESS what that means . YOU can believe as you like , BUT DONT DARE SPEAK A WORD
against ANYONE in said group . DO NOT WARN against , rather just embrace . WE BEEN DUPED sister .
ALL in the name of religious tolerance , which while it will be tolerant to the evil
IT WILL NOT TOLERATE the true who would warn , who would expose sins . WE got duped sister .