Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five , dont be as my grandpap would say.... ανοησία

@GodsGrace posted this above, and you have as usual ignored.

YOU said " God never identifies non-Hebrew Gentiles as Olive tree in Scripture. The Olive tree is Israel and those being "grafted BACK in" are disobedient Jews/Israel."

Paul says you are wrong.

See what the following says about Gentiles... I reddened the important words in case you get lost.


Romans 11
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch * then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;

21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Do you not understand that In Romans 11:11–24 Paul compares Israel to the natural branches of a cultivated olive tree and the Gentile believers to the branches of a wild olive tree. Some of the natural branches (Israel) were broken off, and the wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in (verse 17).

The Gentiles, then, have been made partakers of the promises and inherit the blessings of God’s salvation.

Show me in the Old Testament God identifying Gentiles as Olive tree.

Being raised for 15-20 generations without their Temple living in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture makes a people disobedient when they lose sight of their religion. Their whole life centered around the Tabernacle and later their Temple. Take away their Temple and all that's left are their Feasts and calendar. Let's see how long you remain a knowledged Christian if there's no Bible in your hand. The same thing happened to the Samaritans. The Jews prevented them having their Scripture (among other factors) since worship was centered in Jerusalem before the kingdom split in two. The Samaritan woman was a daughter of Abraham but because of their conquest and eventual exile they became a figurehead of their former selves. But Judah is a different story.

 

[ProDeo]

Sheol is the grave.
"Hell" (Hades) is the grave.
Both are "unseen" (Strong's.)
Too many medieval interpretations confusing the literal definitions.
Stick with the literal unless the context indicates another understanding. Don't be too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

The Lake of Fire was not in the OT.

Your "not in the OT" logic fails.

 

[Red Baker]

Do you believe in baptismal regeneration @Jim?

@Johann

Listen to what he said:

I believe the one baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13 is water baptism which is the occasion of two specific results; the first is the forgiveness of sins and the second is the receiving of the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit is the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The difference between John's baptism and Christian baptism is that Christian baptism is not only for the forgiveness of sins, but also for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

First, water baptism has not one thing to do with our sins being legally forgiven. Only the life, death (blood) and resurrection of Jesus Christ secured the forgiven of our sin. period!

Second, 1st Corinthians 12:13 is not speaking about water baptism, Consider:

​

1st Corinthians 12:13​

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

The! formation of a visible church is the work of the Spirit putting all the members into one body.​

What forms various members into one spiritual body to be used by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 12:12,14)? A spirit in man makes him a living soul and animates his bodily members (James 2:26). A church is more than an organization: it is a spiritual organism with life from the Spirit. All the members of a church are united together spiritually by the Holy Spirit of God. God dwells in a local church by the Presence of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:22; Ist Timothy 3:15). The Spirit takes spiritual children and makes them living stones in His temple (Ist Peter 2:5). In the spiritual union in a church there is no Jew, Greek, bond, or free (Galatians 3:28).

The body here is obviously the local church, for it is all that is mentioned before and after.

Those exalting a universal church as the only church that counts interpret this verse to be teaching infant baptism making church members and national citizens, simultaneously. Paul is writing the local church at Corinth, and he is dealing with gifts in a local church. He will tell them plainly in a few verses that he is talking specifically about them (Ist Cor 12:27).

Paul did not jump subjects to water baptism admission into some universal church. The baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit.

Not every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11; 20:22). Water baptism is an individual act of answering God with a good conscience (Ist Peter 3:21). Water baptism is performed by a human administrator, not by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:38). Water baptism does not make church members except in Roman Catholicism, for the eunuch was not made a member anywhere by his baptism by Philip (Acts 8:39).

Joining one self to a local body of believers, the outward organization, is by mutual assent in Christ, for Paul’s baptism had not made him a member in any sense of any body (Acts 9:18,26).

Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church. We lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when we receive new professors to worship with us, which is the opposite action we take when excluding a member from our church body.

The church has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18). The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new members into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.

The result is not salvation, membership, gifts, or anything else, but participation in the body. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit. This is a passive work done to members, just like the baptism in the first part of the verse.

Also, consider Matthew 3:11,12:

​

Matthew 3:11​

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Here is a baptism preached by the Charismatics that they encourage their follows to seek, yet a closer considerations of these scriptures proves that this baptism is something to avoid at all cost.

Matthew 3:7​

“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”

John warns these generation of vipers that Jesus will baptized them with the Holy Ghost and fire! Listen carefully: "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This baptism will be when the wicked are cast into the LAKE of fire, after the final judgement!

Water baptism is only for those who are ALREADY BELIEVERS, and it is an answer of a GOOD conscience not in order to receive one! 1st Peter 3:21; etc.

 

[Jim]

Do you believe in baptismal regeneration @Jim?

J.

No. Baptismal regeneration is a doctrinal position that the act of being baptized produces the result of salvation. I do not believe that. I believe that only God can do that. I believe that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the time, the instant, in the life of the repentant believer that God has said that He would do that, that He would forgive the sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer being baptized. We know that from several passages in the NT. Whether or not God would do that at any other time is not given in scripture.

 

[Jim]

The Ceremonial has been fulfilled by Christ. Same of the Social and Moral Law. But for the Jew they do not err by planning to build their third Temple and reestablishing animal sacrifices. In time the Law will show them their Messiah and they will reform.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal. 3:24.

For those that erroneously believe the Law was "abolished" or "obsolete" if that is the case then NO ONE can be saved. Leave Israel to their Messiah and their God and let's not tell another nation how they are to worship their God.

Who is the "we" in Galatians 3:24?

 

[dwight92070]

No. Baptismal regeneration is a doctrinal position that the act of being baptized produces the result of salvation. I do not believe that. I believe that only God can do that. I believe that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the time, the instant, in the life of the repentant believer that God has said that He would do that, that He would forgive the sins and give the gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer being baptized. We know that from several passages in the NT. Whether or not God would do that at any other time is not given in scripture.

Not given in scripture? Are you kidding me? I counted 213 verses in the New Testament that speak of salvation occurring with no water baptism mentioned. However there are no verses that indicate that a person is saved at the moment of water baptism. Please show us the several passages that say otherwise. Since only God can save, why would he need 2 people in order to save 1 person? One who wants salvation and another person who will baptize that person. If it takes 2 people for 1 person to be saved, then what happens to the man whose parachute fails, and he quickly prays for God to be saved before he hits the earth? What about the man who is lost in a forest, facing a cold night outside, praying earnestly for salvation before he faces freezing to death? What about the astronaut who does a spacewalk outside of his spaceship and his lifeline gets cut? He prays for mercy and salvation, but will soon die. Or the astronaut inside a spaceship, who is awestruck at the sight of the earth or the moon or the sun, and he asks God to save him right then? Even if there was another astronaut willing to baptize him, how can that happen in the weightlessness of space? Or the mountain climber who is high in the Andes mountains, stranded on the side of a vertical cliff, crying out to God to be rescued and to be saved? Or the passenger on a commercial flight, which just collided with another airplane, and their plane is nosediving? If he cries out to God for salvation before he dies, how will he be baptized before his death? Yes, these are called death-bed conversions, and they happen all the time.
Thank God, the truth is that God hears the dying cry of a repentant sinner, and saves them instantly, with no help from someone baptizing that person.
Just like He does when He hears anyone's sincere call for salvation, whether in a life or death situation or not, long before water baptism is even thought about. I know, because that's what happened to me, as well as many others, including all those saved in the Bible.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Lake of Fire was not in the OT.

Your "not in the OT" logic fails.

Not called Lake of Fire but Gehena.

It originates from the Hebrew "Ge Hinnom," meaning "Valley of Hinnom."

This is a valley located southwest of Jerusalem.

Historically, this valley was a site where some ancient Israelites practiced child sacrifice, particularly to the god Moloch. Later, it became a place where Jerusalem's refuse was disposed of, with fires constantly burning. Due to its history and use as a waste disposal site, Gehenna became a symbol of divine judgment and punishment. In Jewish and Christian eschatology, it is often associated with the concept of hell or a place of fiery destruction.
In essence, Gehenna transitioned from a literal geographical location to a powerful metaphor for divine retribution.

 

[ProDeo]

Not called Lake of Fire but Gehena.

It originates from the Hebrew "Ge Hinnom," meaning "Valley of Hinnom."

This is a valley located southwest of Jerusalem.

Historically, this valley was a site where some ancient Israelites practiced child sacrifice, particularly to the god Moloch. Later, it became a place where Jerusalem's refuse was disposed of, with fires constantly burning. Due to its history and use as a waste disposal site, Gehenna became a symbol of divine judgment and punishment. In Jewish and Christian eschatology, it is often associated with the concept of hell or a place of fiery destruction.
In essence, Gehenna transitioned from a literal geographical location to a powerful metaphor for divine retribution.

I know about Gehenna but that's not the Lake of Fire.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Who is the "we" in Galatians 3:24?

Let's be biblical and precise:

23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we [JEWS]might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye [JEWS] are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Not Gentile, but Greek - Hellenized], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [Still JEWS and] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:23–29.

Each succeeding generation after Abraham (Isaac, Jacob, twelve sons, etc.) were heirs hoping for fulfillment of the Abraham promises. Then the Mosaic Covenant with the children of Israel God delivered out of Egypt and these 3-4 million Hebrews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle were a "great congregation" before the Lord. They are the original "Church" of "called out [ones]" by God out of Egypt, the same as God "called out" baby Jesus out of Egypt when His enemies in Israel passed on. The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews (Jewish Christians) to and for other Jews and Jewish Christians so that they might come to know their Savior as John declares. Ten days after the ascension three thousand Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel.)

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all (Hebrew) flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

The [Holy] Spirit God sends is promised to Israel and NOT to Gentiles. There is nothing in Scripture that reveals God made any promise(s) to non-Hebrew Gentiles. God is dealing directly with one people on earth - the children of Israel and seed of Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.) And Saul himself declares "and ALL ISRAEL shall be saved." They are the seed of Abraham even if they are of mixed heritage (Jew-Gentile) because God gave His promise to Abraham and HIS SEED. No matter the dilution of DNA, if one is seed of Abraham (and the LORD knows them that are His), they are heirs according to God's promise.

Gentiles got nothing coming of God. Except this:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev. 20:7–9.

The Jews will occupy their Promised Land and Gentiles will occupy everything else. Their end is determined by God. You might think yourself Gentile and saved, but the promise is to Abraham and his seed and as a result of God scattering His people among the Gentile four times in history, there were intermarriages, rapes, concubinage, slavery, etc., and Gentiles were mixed with Jew. If you are a presumed Gentile and truly saved by the Spirit of Promise, by virtue of God's Promise there MUST be a Hebrew parent somewhere in your ancestry. I once asked how far "you" can trace your ancestry, and no one went past the American Revolutionary War. There is no other biblical explanation. Maybe when the two witnesses appear they will witness to Israel and might correct errors in the so-called "Gentile" Christianity. The only Church is Israel and true, biblical Christianity is rooted in Hebrew history before the God of Israel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I know about Gehenna but that's not the Lake of Fire.

Your Gentile theology fails. It is Hebrew history and culture that is center to all things of God. Your Constantinian Gentile theology is in error in many, many places. We must all see the same Jesus, we must all say the same thing as God. To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

 

[Red Baker]

Let's be biblical and precise:

23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we [JEWS]might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye [JEWS] are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Not Gentile, but Greek - Hellenized], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [Still JEWS and] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:23–29.

Each succeeding generation after Abraham (Isaac, Jacob, twelve sons, etc.) were heirs hoping for fulfillment of the Abraham promises. Then the Mosaic Covenant with the children of Israel God delivered out of Egypt and these 3-4 million Hebrews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle were a "great congregation" before the Lord. They are the original "Church" of "called out [ones]" by God out of Egypt, the same as God "called out" baby Jesus out of Egypt when His enemies in Israel passed on. The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews (Jewish Christians) to and for other Jews and Jewish Christians so that they might come to know their Savior as John declares. Ten days after the ascension three thousand Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel.)

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all (Hebrew) flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

The [Holy] Spirit God sends is promised to Israel and NOT to Gentiles. There is nothing in Scripture that reveals God made any promise(s) to non-Hebrew Gentiles. God is dealing directly with one people on earth - the children of Israel and seed of Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.) And Saul himself declares "and ALL ISRAEL shall be saved." They are the seed of Abraham even if they are of mixed heritage (Jew-Gentile) because God gave His promise to Abraham and HIS SEED. No matter the dilution of DNA, if one is seed of Abraham (and the LORD knows them that are His), they are heirs according to God's promise.

Gentiles got nothing coming of God. Except this:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev. 20:7–9.

The Jews will occupy their Promised Land and Gentiles will occupy everything else. Their end is determined by God. You might think yourself Gentile and saved, but the promise is to Abraham and his seed and as a result of God scattering His people among the Gentile four times in history, there were intermarriages, rapes, concubinage, slavery, etc., and Gentiles were mixed with Jew. If you are a presumed Gentile and truly saved by the Spirit of Promise, by virtue of God's Promise there MUST be a Hebrew parent somewhere in your ancestry. I once asked how far "you" can trace your ancestry, and no one went past the American Revolutionary War. There is no other biblical explanation. Maybe when the two witnesses appear they will witness to Israel and might correct errors in the so-called "Gentile" Christianity. The only Church is Israel and true, biblical Christianity is rooted in Hebrew history before the God of Israel.

Jeremiah, why are you so insistence in hijacking this thread? I will prove that your overly infatuation (not to mention unscriptural) of the Jews is antichrist. But, I refuse any more to entertain you devilish infatuation of the Jews in this thread. You corrupt just about every scriptures you quote, which is not surprising to me.

 

[ProDeo]

The only Church is Israel and true, biblical Christianity is rooted in Hebrew history before the God of Israel.

Okay, I see where you coming from.

Shalom.

 

[Red Baker]

Actually, both you and @Johann are conflating forgiveness of sins with salvation. What Jesus accomplished on the cross was technically not the forgiveness of sins but rather it was the payment of the debt owed by the whole of mankind for their sins. Salvation includes the forgiveness of sins, but forgiveness of sins is not the whole of salvation. The OT is replete with forgiveness of sins; consider, for example,

Wrong, as usual on the subject of Soteriology. The differences between you and I, and many others here on this forum is this:

1. I firmly believe and teach that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, secured the forgiveness of his people's sins and guarantee the gift of eternal life by Jesus fulfilling the demands of the law in their place as their representative ~ Jesus' death/blood was the payment offered unto God for their sins.

2. You and others truly believe and teach....."what Jesus accomplished on the cross was technically not the forgiveness of sins but rather it was the payment of the debt owed by the whole of mankind for their sins." That salvation was provided for the whole world, all that's is left is for them to do is for them to receive the gift by the power of their own will, which will according to your gospel is free to do spiritual acts toward God....... So many if's in this gospel of works!
One of many problems with your gospel Jim is this: If Jesus indeed paid for the sins of the whole world, then God would have to acquit everyone for whom Jesus paid for their sins, for Him to be just. God's justice would not first make a surety paid for the sins of those whom he represented, and then make others paid for their sins by sending them to an eternal place of torment, to make them suffer as long as God is God! That's double jeopardy, making God less merciful than even man is. In our own laws here in the USA we have a Amendment: The amendment that prevents double jeopardy is the Fifth Amendment. This amendment is a crucial part of the United States Constitution, ratified in 1791, and it provides several protections for individuals in the criminal justice system. Mainly one cannot be try twice for the same offense, if found innocent once. So, If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL the world, then all the world must be set free from their sins. according to your gospel.

John's baptism was for (in order to obtain) the forgiveness of sin.

Jim, that's so wrong, dead wrong, I might add. Jesus forgave sins many times during his earthly life on earth yet he never baptized the first person!

John 4:1,2​

“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)”

Salvation from sin and condemnation is without works, meaning any work man has an active part in, and certainly in water baptism man is very active! Both the will of the flesh and the will of man are working together in water baptism and both are denied a part in being born again, John 1:13. Besides, being born again must take place before one and even see and understand spiritual truths, and one's need to be baptized. Acts 10:35-47

The rest we have went over several times, so I will forbear at this time to rehash some of those points again.

 

[Jim]

If it takes 2 people for 1 person to be saved, then what happens to the man whose parachute fails, and he quickly prays for God to be saved before he hits the earth?

Yeah, you faith alone guys always ask about such exceptions. What does the Bible say about the man whose chute fails? Do you think the man in that situation really has faith in God? Do you think he is really concerned in that last moment about going to be with God in heaven if he obviously hasn't been concerned about it up to that point? But the main point here is that I don't really even need to answer that question; God is perfectly capable of handling it for Himself.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, why are you so insistence in hijacking this thread? I will prove that your overly infatuation (not to mention unscriptural) of the Jews is antichrist. But, I refuse any more to entertain you devilish infatuation of the Jews in this thread. You corrupt just about every scriptures you quote, which is not surprising to me.

I responded in my entry that John and all New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are written to the Jews by Jews. I get asked or challenged on a statement and I respond. Even you asked me a question and I responded. Now you want to accuse me of hijacking this thread is dishonest. You can't show me in Scripture God making any kind of covenant with non-Hebrews in the Old Testament and now you want to hide this truth by accusing me of hijacking this thread. Let's end the controversy you dishonestly present. If you can show me a Scripture from the Old Testament God making covenant of salvation with non-Hebrew Gentiles then you win the argument and I will concede. The Scripture must be clear, it must declare covenant with covenant language in the passage or passages. These are examples:

NOAH:
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; Gen. 9:8–9.

ABRAHAM:
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Abraham's seed identified in Gen. 17:7):
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:5–6.

Your turn. Where is the Scripture declaring salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Old Testament? Are you a biblical Christian or a fake? Be ready to give answer to those that ask of the hope in you. Or you're a fake and all your beliefs are based on Gentile lies. (but I know you'll make excuse because you cannot answer my challenge.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Okay, I see where you coming from.

Shalom.

Good for you.

 

[Jim]

Wrong, as usual on the subject of Soteriology. The differences between you and I, and many others here on this forum is this:

1. I firmly believe and teach that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, secured the forgiveness of his people's sins and guarantee the gift of eternal life by Jesus fulfilling the demands of the law in their place as their representative ~ Jesus' death/blood was the payment offered unto God for their sins.

I don't disagree with that. I do disagree with what you claim to be "His people".

2. You and others truly believe and teach....."what Jesus accomplished on the cross was technically not the forgiveness of sins but rather it was the payment of the debt owed by the whole of mankind for their sins."

We know that is wrong simply because the OT is full of examples of people receiving the forgiveness of sins through the blood sacrifices according to the law.

That salvation was provided for the whole world, all that's is left is for them to do is for them to receive the gift by the power of their own will, which will according to your gospel is free to do spiritual acts toward God.......

What is left is for them to do is to believe in God and obey the gospel.

So many if's in this gospel of works!

Only for you who seem to not know and understand the biblical teaching on works.

One of many problems with your gospel Jim is this: If Jesus indeed paid for the sins of the whole world, then God would have to acquit everyone for whom Jesus paid for their sins, for Him to be just. God's justice would not first make a surety paid for the sins of those whom he represented, and then make others paid for their sins by sending them to an eternal place of torment, to make them suffer as long as God is God! That's double jeopardy, making God less merciful than even man is. In our own laws here in the USA we have a Amendment: The amendment that prevents double jeopardy is the Fifth Amendment. This amendment is a crucial part of the United States Constitution, ratified in 1791, and it provides several protections for individuals in the criminal justice system. Mainly one cannot be try twice for the same offense, if found innocent once. So, If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL the world, then all the world must be set free from their sins. according to your gospel.

That is all Red Baker's doctrine, not God's teaching.

Jim, that's so wrong, dead wrong, I might add. Jesus forgave sins many times during his earthly life on earth yet he neverbaptized the first person!

John 4:1,2​

Firs of all, He clearly approved of the baptism for the forgiveness of sins, since His disciples baptized more people than did John the Baptist (John 4:1). Second, you can try the approach of seeking forgiveness from the person Jesus personally if you wish, but I wouldn't recommend it. I suggest you go with what He passed along to the apostles and prophets who wrote the NT scripture

Salvation from sin and condemnation is without works, meaning any work man has an active part in, and certainly in water baptism man is very active!

Actually, being baptized is a submissive act. It is passive not active. It is something done to the believer, not something the believer does.

Both the will of the flesh and the will of man are working together in water baptism and both are denied a part in being born again, John 1:13.

As you do so often, you simply alter the meaning as presented to make it agree with your Augustinian Gnosticism. All those referred to in verse 13 are those who in verse 12 are said to have received Him. Those who received Him and believed in His name were given the right to become children of God by being born of God.

It does not say, as you do, that to all who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God, He gave the right to receive Jesus and to believe in His name.

Besides, being born again must take place before one and even see and understand spiritual truths, and one's need to be baptized. Acts 10:35-47

Acts 10:35-47 doesn't say that at all. That passage begins by saying, that "God shows no partiality, and in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." (vv. 34-35). Clearly God saw that Cornelius was one such person and used him in persuading Peter that "everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (v.43). To demonstrate that, God caused the Holy Spirit to fall on them such that they could work the miracle of speaking in tongues. Working miracles was not and never was a sign of being saved.

The rest we have went over several times, so I will forbear at this time to rehash some of those points again.

Yes, and each time you try to convince me of your erroneous Augustinian/Calvinist views. And again, that doesn't work.

 

[Jim]

Let's be biblical and precise:

23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we [JEWS]might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye [JEWS] are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Not Gentile, but Greek - Hellenized], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [Still JEWS and] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:23–29.

Each succeeding generation after Abraham (Isaac, Jacob, twelve sons, etc.) were heirs hoping for fulfillment of the Abraham promises. Then the Mosaic Covenant with the children of Israel God delivered out of Egypt and these 3-4 million Hebrews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle were a "great congregation" before the Lord. They are the original "Church" of "called out [ones]" by God out of Egypt, the same as God "called out" baby Jesus out of Egypt when His enemies in Israel passed on. The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jews (Jewish Christians) to and for other Jews and Jewish Christians so that they might come to know their Savior as John declares. Ten days after the ascension three thousand Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel.)

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all (Hebrew) flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

The [Holy] Spirit God sends is promised to Israel and NOT to Gentiles. There is nothing in Scripture that reveals God made any promise(s) to non-Hebrew Gentiles. God is dealing directly with one people on earth - the children of Israel and seed of Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.) And Saul himself declares "and ALL ISRAEL shall be saved." They are the seed of Abraham even if they are of mixed heritage (Jew-Gentile) because God gave His promise to Abraham and HIS SEED. No matter the dilution of DNA, if one is seed of Abraham (and the LORD knows them that are His), they are heirs according to God's promise.

Gentiles got nothing coming of God. Except this:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev. 20:7–9.

The Jews will occupy their Promised Land and Gentiles will occupy everything else. Their end is determined by God. You might think yourself Gentile and saved, but the promise is to Abraham and his seed and as a result of God scattering His people among the Gentile four times in history, there were intermarriages, rapes, concubinage, slavery, etc., and Gentiles were mixed with Jew. If you are a presumed Gentile and truly saved by the Spirit of Promise, by virtue of God's Promise there MUST be a Hebrew parent somewhere in your ancestry. I once asked how far "you" can trace your ancestry, and no one went past the American Revolutionary War. There is no other biblical explanation. Maybe when the two witnesses appear they will witness to Israel and might correct errors in the so-called "Gentile" Christianity. The only Church is Israel and true, biblical Christianity is rooted in Hebrew history before the God of Israel.

Paul, the apostle of Jesus to the Gentiles, was plagued all during his ministry by Judaizers much like you. He fought against them diligently with the power given him by God through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

I responded in my entry that John and all New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are written to the Jews by Jews. I get asked or challenged on a statement and I respond. Even you asked me a question and I responded. Now you want to accuse me of hijacking this thread is dishonest. You can't show me in Scripture God making any kind of covenant with non-Hebrews in the Old Testament and now you want to hide this truth by accusing me of hijacking this thread. Let's end the controversy you dishonestly present. If you can show me a Scripture from the Old Testament God making covenant of salvation with non-Hebrew Gentiles then you win the argument and I will concede. The Scripture must be clear, it must declare covenant with covenant language in the passage or passages. These are examples:

NOAH:
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; Gen. 9:8–9.

ABRAHAM:
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Abraham's seed identified in Gen. 17:7):
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Exodus 19:5–6.

Your turn. Where is the Scripture declaring salvation covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Old Testament? Are you a biblical Christian or a fake? Be ready to give answer to those that ask of the hope in you. Or you're a fake and all your beliefs are based on Gentile lies. (but I know you'll make excuse because you cannot answer my challenge.)

I'm starting a new thread with you concerning these things in which you have been mentioning. Watch for it...maybe later today or in the morning.

 

[GodsGrace]

If there is no Old Testament precedence there can be no New Testament reality.

God identifies the Olive tree as Israel and those being grafted BACK IN are the disobedient Israelites. But nowhere in the Old Testament does God call non-Hebrew Gentiles as Olive tree. So, in order to make sense of Saul's words that Gentiles are Olive tree there must be precedence in the Old Testament but there is none. You are holding to a false understanding of Saul's words in Romans. All three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, New) are centered around the children and House of Israel.

I posted Romans 11:17 because it states that the Gentiles are WILD OLIVES.
I don't believe Paul meant ONE OLIVE....an olive means an olive tree.

You make a statement but don't back it up with scripture.
In theology you're supposed to be able to back up your statements with scripture.
What YOU are presenting here is your own idea referring to the OT in alignment with the NT.
I don't believe you'd be able to find any scripture because the NT CAN HAVE new ideas in it.

As to the Abrahamic, Mosaic and New Covenants....

I agree that the Abrahamic Covenant was made with only Abraham who was a Hebrew...
BUT
It was meant FOR ALL NATIONS in t he future...
God would offer to ALL NATIONS His salvation.

As to the Mosaic Covenant,,,yes, it applied only to t he Israelites.
The Law is, in fact, ONLY for the Jews and was not meant for the Gentiles to follow...
this is evident in the Jerusalem Council in Acts.

The New Covenant...I disagree.
The New Covenant is FOR ALL PEOPLE and is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES.