Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[dwight92070]

Yeah, you faith alone guys always ask about such exceptions. What does the Bible say about the man whose chute fails? Do you think the man in that situation really has faith in God? Do you think he is really concerned in that last moment about going to be with God in heaven if he obviously hasn't been concerned about it up to that point? But the main point here is that I don't really even need to answer that question; God is perfectly capable of handling it for Himself.

Actually, I think we would all be surprised as to how many "death-bed" conversions really happen. It's quite common for people who are near death, to suddenly think about their soul. Shortly before my Dad passed away, he was reading the Bible every day. I don't think he did that before, at least not that much. Sure, many will not convert when near death, others will but insincerely, others will be sincere and will be saved. My brother-in-law was in the latter category, thank God, and he was unable to be baptized

The point is that your legalistic false doctrine offers little or no hope for such persons. However, the truth in Scripture tells us that God does not reject persons who repent and have faith, but cannot at that same time be baptized.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Paul, the apostle of Jesus to the Gentiles, was plagued all during his ministry by Judaizers much like you. He fought against them diligently with the power given him by God through the Holy Spirit.

Saul was a rabbi and Pharisee. He knows the Abraham and Mosaic Covenants were made between God and Abraham and his seed. Saul would not violate God's Word in any respect for if he did, he would be an outcast by the Jews for trying to teach Gentiles the Law of Moses given to the children of Israel nor would he ever seek to circumcise a Gentile. It would cause an uproar, and he would lose all credibility. But he was a very respected Jew whose obedience to the Law of Moses was unequaled.

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:17–24.

So, which is it? Is he obedient to the Law of Moses which covenant and Law is between the God of Israel and the children of Israel, or is he teaching non-Hebrew Gentiles to obey the Law and seeking to circumcise them in violation of the Law of Moses? Which is it?

We know of Samaritans who are descendants of the ten northern kingdom tribes and mixed heritage Hebrews called "Samaritan" by the Jews and not calling them Jews. But who was among the "remnant" that returned from Babylon at the leave of king Cyrus who conquered Judah and Benjamin in 586 BC and exiled them to Babylon? Where in the Bible are these two southern kingdom tribes mixed heritage Hebrews mentioned or named? The remnant of the two southern kingdom tribes (Judah and Benjamin) consisted of about 10% of ALL Jews alive at the time who remained in Gentile lands, a number that can be called the majority (90%) of ALL Jews alive at the time? Jesus interacted with Samaritans but what were the mixed heritage Hebrews of the two southern tribes called? Where are they mentioned in the Bible?

I submit that Saul never tried to teach non-Hebrew Gentiles the Law of Moses, nor did he ever seek to circumcise any in violation of the Law of Moses. Saul was apostle to mixed heritage Hebrews who no matter the dilution of their DNA was STILL seed of Abraham and heirs according to the PROMISE. These "lost" sheep grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture and from 722 BC until Christ about 15-20 generations of Jews that were never circumcised were the "Gentiles" that the Jews wanted to circumcise after they became born-again which led to the Jerusalem Council. Now, if these Jewish Christians (born-again practicing Jews) were obedient to the Law of Moses as declared in Acts 21:20 and Judaizers wanted to circumcise these mixed heritage Hebrews who grew up outside the commonwealth of Israel and were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ" are the "Gentiles" so-called by the Jews because they were uncircumcised, lost in and under Gentile and Greek culture for generations until Christ but were born-again and remained the seed of Abraham and were the subject of the Jerusalem Council concerning circumcision of these half-Jew/Gentile Hebrews. James, Peter, Saul, and the other apostles and elders (including born-again priests of the Sanhedrin...)

7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Acts 6:7.....

would NEVER cause a real non-Hebrew Gentile to be circumcised nor would they give them four precepts of the Law of Moses to obey if they were non-Hebrew Gentiles. Pay attention:

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which [JEWS] from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them,
that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication,
and from things strangled,
and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:19–21.

IF they were real non-Hebrew Gentiles the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem would not enjoy the respect of the Jewish people only because they were as Jewish Christians STILL obedient to the Law of Moses, such Law God declared them justified ("NOT GUILTY!") in their conversion to Christ, their Promised Lord and Savior. The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation - including John - were written to Jews and Jewish Christians.

Jesus was the lamb of God. Jesus was obedient to the Law of Moses and taught the people the spirit of the Law and He also fulfilled the Law of Moses. IF under the Law the high priest prayed for the Jews in covenant with God and offered sacrifices for the Jews in covenant with God, then Jesus as High Priest prayed for the Jews in covenant with God and offered Himself for the sins of the covenant people of God (John 17), then the salvation that Jonah said is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9), and the salvation which Jesus said was of the Jews was to and for the Jews in covenant with God and NOT for non-Hebrew Gentiles. Jesus said as much at the last Passover when He told the twelve disciples representing the twelve tribes of Israel that His body and blood are "given for you" then Jesus died in obedience to the Law of Moses, fulfilled the Law of Moses whose blood the high priest sprinkled upon the people and whose blood Jesus took away the sins of the Jewish people, then then salvation is of the Jews and no one else. There is nothing in the Law of Moses that the high priest offered sacrifices for Gentiles nor did Jesus as High Priest offer Himself for Gentiles but solely for the people of God in covenant with God.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.

The Word of God - Genesis to Revelation - is to and for the Jewish people in covenant with God.
THAT IS the bottom line.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm starting a new thread with you concerning these things in which you have been mentioning. Watch for it...maybe later today or in the morning.

Who was the Book of John Addressed to: Page 18 response 342

 

[jeremiah1five]

I posted Romans 11:17 because it states that the Gentiles are WILD OLIVES.
I don't believe Paul meant ONE OLIVE....an olive means an olive tree.

You make a statement but don't back it up with scripture.
In theology you're supposed to be able to back up your statements with scripture.
What YOU are presenting here is your own idea referring to the OT in alignment with the NT.
I don't believe you'd be able to find any scripture because the NT CAN HAVE new ideas in it.

As to the Abrahamic, Mosaic and New Covenants....

I agree that the Abrahamic Covenant was made with only Abraham who was a Hebrew...
BUT
It was meant FOR ALL NATIONS in t he future...
God would offer to ALL NATIONS His salvation.

As to the Mosaic Covenant,,,yes, it applied only to t he Israelites.
The Law is, in fact, ONLY for the Jews and was not meant for the Gentiles to follow...
this is evident in the Jerusalem Council in Acts.

The New Covenant...I disagree.
The New Covenant is FOR ALL PEOPLE and is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

GOD KEEPS HIS PROMISES.

Type and shadow. If God identifies the Olive tree as Israel and only Israel, why do you seek to add your own erroneous interpretation to make Olive tree become non-Hebrew Gentiles? There's nothing in the Old Testament that says non-Hebrew Gentiles are Olive tree.

God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. If He did, then prove it through Scripture. But don't quote Genesis and say "nations" are Gentiles because two Hebrew parents (Abraham and Sarah) cannot birth a non-Hebrew Gentile. Impossible.

 

[Jim]

The point is that your legalistic false doctrine offers little or no hope for such persons. However, the truth in Scripture tells us that God does not reject persons who repent and have faith, but cannot at that same time be baptized.

It doesn't really say that anywhere in scripture. That is simply your particular view of things. How about Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

There clearly is the implication that one not obeying the gospel is eternally condemned. That would imply that not being eternally condemned requires that one obey the gospel.

So I am curious. What do you think is the gospel? What do you think it means to obey the gospel? In your answer to those two questions, concerning the gospel, please include your thoughts on the meaning of the gospel in Mark 1:1-8 which speaks of the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ in reference to the preaching of John the Baptist which deals with baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Jim]

deleted

 

[Jim]

The Word of God - Genesis to Revelation - is to and for the Jewish people in covenant with God.
THAT IS the bottom line.

You are delusional.

Paul's own presentation of Jesus' command to Paul at their meeting on the road to Damascus:

Act 26:14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Act 26:15 And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Paul, by the direction of Jesus Christ, was sent to the Gentiles. His writings, which constitute a good bit of the NT, was written to the Gentiles.

So not only are you delusional, but I consider that you are dangerous.

 

[Red Baker]

You are delusional...........................

Paul, by the direction of Jesus Christ, was sent to the Gentiles. His writings, which constitute a good bit of the NT, was written to the Gentiles.

So not only are you delusional, but I consider that you are dangerous.

There's so much to begin with, in proving just how delusional he is, that it is not easy to know just where to start, but start I will.

He refuses to use the name of Paul when speaking of Paul but chooses his Hebrews name Saul, which shows just how deep he is into believing that the entire scriptures are written only to Jews, or, another term he has concocted.....Jeremiah said: Saul was apostle "to mixed heritage Hebrews" among non-Hebrews Gentiles. I'm working on my post, but have a few other obligations that I must first do, then I'll post. In meantime time:

Romans 15: 8-28~"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain."

 

[jeremiah1five]

You are delusional.

Paul's own presentation of Jesus' command to Paul at their meeting on the road to Damascus:

Act 26:14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Act 26:15 And I said, 'Who are you, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.
Act 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you,
Act 26:17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles--to whom I am sending you
Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Paul, by the direction of Jesus Christ, was sent to the Gentiles. His writings, which constitute a good bit of the NT, was written to the Gentiles.

So not only are you delusional, but I consider that you are dangerous.

He was sent to the Gentiles because that's where the majority of Hebrews and mixed heritage Hebrews lived. The God of Israel found it necessary to give the Jews a short word of comfort: I have kept my promise. The Prophet like unto Moses has come and now it is time to repent for the kingdom of heaven is here.

The same message Jesus gave to the eleven when He sent them to all four cardinal points of the compass: Samaria (north), Judah (south), Jerusalem (west), and the uttermost parts of the earth (the Orient or east.) This command was given while on the Mount of Olives.

It's their covenant. Stop trying to steal their inheritance. It belongs to Israel.

 

[Jim]

He was sent to the Gentiles because that's where the majority of Hebrews and mixed heritage Hebrews lived. The God of Israel found it necessary to give the Jews a short word of comfort: I have kept my promise. The Prophet like unto Moses has come and now it is time to repent for the kingdom of heaven is here.

The same message Jesus gave to the eleven when He sent them to all four cardinal points of the compass: Samaria (north), Judah (south), Jerusalem (west), and the uttermost parts of the earth (the Orient or east.) This command was given while on the Mount of Olives.

It's their covenant. Stop trying to steal their inheritance. It belongs to Israel.

I am sorry, but your view of God is simply sick!!!

Red Baker can continue discussions with you if he likes, but I am done. I don't even want to be connected with you in conversation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I am sorry, but your view of God is simply sick!!!

Red Baker can continue discussions with you if he likes, but I am done. I don't even want to be connected with you in conversation.

Yes, everyone bows out when they cannot provide scriptural proof of a salvation covenant between the God of Israel and non-Hebrew Gentiles as He's made with the children of Israel who are the biological seed of Abraham. Personal insults is the way of the loser.

 

[Jim]

Yes, everyone bows out when they cannot provide scriptural proof of a salvation covenant between the God of Israel and non-Hebrew Gentiles as He's made with the children of Israel who are the biological seed of Abraham. Personal insults is the way of the loser.

I provided the scriptural proof of a salvation covenant between God and Gentiles. And I made no personal insult; I simply stated the truth.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I provided the scriptural proof of a salvation covenant between God and Gentiles. And I made no personal insult; I simply stated the truth.

Identifying something in the New Testament as being something that exists when there is no Old Testament "shadow" or "type" is incorrect. When Matthew makes a statement in his gospel, he makes connection and reference in the Old Testament where such and such is first prophesied. His gospel is packed with Old Testament passages upon which he makes claim of fulfillment in the day of Messiah's appearing going forward. Even Saul as rabbi and Pharisee who was held in high esteem by the Sanhedrin and the people would NEVER make a claim concerning the things of God in his letters if he could not connect it to an Old Testament prophecy or precedence. What you are doing is mistaking Saul's words and misinterpreting his statements in order to support your erroneous interpretation, such as that God had made a covenant with Gentiles in and through the life and death of Jesus Christ when there was never any salvation offered to non-Hebrew Gentiles under the Mosaic Law.

Case in point: under the Law the high priest NEVER prayed for Gentiles or offered sacrifices for Gentiles. The Mosaic Covenant was between God and the children of Israel whom God delivered from their Egyptian bondage. Jesus as High Priest and as lamb of God never offered Himself for their sins for if He did then He would have violated the Law and the ministry of the high priest before God on behalf of Israel.

It is said and is true that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses. He is also the "Seed" of One upon whom the Mosaic Covenant would be fulfilled. Under the Law the high priest prayed for the children of Israel and offered sacrifices for Israel and part of his acts as high priest was to sprinkle the children of Israel with the blood of the sacrifice which was exactly what Jesus as High Priest did in accordance with the Law as a High Priest had performed under the Law. There is no Scripture in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy that says the high priest made sacrifice for non-Hebrew Gentiles. Nor did Jesus Christ as High Priest offer Himself for Gentiles because there is nothing under the Law that God was concerned for their salvation. Besides the Davidic Covenant and other minor promises God made in the Old Testament towards a son or daughter of Abraham, God made three covenants.

Abraham Covenant.
Mosaic Covenant.
New Covenant.

All three are with the Hebrew people of the family of Eber from whom the Hebrew is identified. The Abraham Covenant is between God and Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.) The Mosaic Covenant is between God and Abraham's seed, a people of 3-4 million people called the children of Jacob/Israel. The New Covenant is between God and the ten northern kingdom tribes called House of Israel, and the two southern kingdom tribes called the House of Judah (Jer. 31:31-34.)

There is no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Old Testament. And as surely you should know the Christian faith is founded upon Old Testament prophecies. After Saul was born-again on the Damascus road, he disappeared for 14-17 years to study the Old Testament prophecies and record in order to be taught by the Holy Spirit of Promise Joel said was PROMISED TO ISRAEL. So, these two things preclude any covenant between God and Gentiles. It doesn't exist. Nor has God ever promised His Spirit to non-Hebrew Gentiles. Besides these two things there is also a passage in Revelation in which God destroys ALL non-Hebrew Gentiles off the planet with fire from heaven to consume this people (Rev. 20.) In the Old Testament God makes promises and/or sends His prophets TO ISRAEL to declare His will and purpose concerning His covenant people Israel. But there is no covenant in the Old Testament between God and Gentiles. None at all. Again, if there is no covenant between God and Gentiles in the Old Testament then there can be no covenant between God and Gentiles in the New Testament.

IF there was a covenant between God and Gentiles in the Old Testament, I would herald it, defend it, and declare it but there is none.

 

[GodsGrace]

Type and shadow. If God identifies the Olive tree as Israel and only Israel, why do you seek to add your own erroneous interpretation to make Olive tree become non-Hebrew Gentiles? There's nothing in the Old Testament that says non-Hebrew Gentiles are Olive tree.

God made NO COVENANT with non-Hebrew Gentiles. If He did, then prove it through Scripture. But don't quote Genesis and say "nations" are Gentiles because two Hebrew parents (Abraham and Sarah) cannot birth a non-Hebrew Gentile. Impossible.

I posted scripture to which you did not respond.

And the above is a reply to my post which I'm reposting below??

I posted Romans 11:17 because it states that the Gentiles are WILD OLIVES.
I don't believe Paul meant ONE OLIVE....an olive means an olive tree.

You make a statement but don't back it up with scripture.
In theology you're supposed to be able to back up your statements with scripture.
What YOU are presenting here is your own idea referring to the OT in alignment with the NT.
I don't believe you'd be able to find any scripture because the NT CAN HAVE new ideas in it.

As to the Abrahamic, Mosaic and New Covenants....

I agree that the Abrahamic Covenant was made with only Abraham who was a Hebrew...
BUT
It was meant FOR ALL NATIONS in t he future...
God would offer to ALL NATIONS His salvation.

As to the Mosaic Covenant,,,yes, it applied only to t he Israelites.
The Law is, in fact, ONLY for the Jews and was not meant for the Gentiles to follow...
this is evident in the Jerusalem Council in Acts.

The New Covenant...I disagree.
The New Covenant is FOR ALL PEOPLE and is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.


I notice that you're having this same problem, which YOU have created, with others, including @Jim...who is quite tired of debating with you since what you post makes no sense and is incorrect.

Secondly, I'll say that it tires me to debate whether or not water is wet.

So, I also will be bowing out because I also just cannot debate with such a big theologian as yourself.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I posted scripture to which you did not respond.

And the above is a reply to my post which I'm reposting below??

I posted Romans 11:17 because it states that the Gentiles are WILD OLIVES.
I don't believe Paul meant ONE OLIVE....an olive means an olive tree.

Let's take a look at your passage in Romans 11:17

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Those that are of his flesh refers to Jews.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Who is the "firstfruit"? That would be Jesus Christ.
What does Saul mean by "lump"? He is referring again to Jesus Christ.
Not only that but in also identifying the "root" who is also Jesus Christ he also brings up the branches which are the Jewish people. I see no mention of Gentiles in these preceding verses. Now, to your verse 17.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

You make a statement but don't back it up with scripture.
In theology you're supposed to be able to back up your statements with scripture.
What YOU are presenting here is your own idea referring to the OT in alignment with the NT.
I don't believe you'd be able to find any scripture because the NT CAN HAVE new ideas in it.

There is nothing new under the sun. What God promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel as the seed of Abraham is written down in the Old Testament. Nowhere does God include Gentiles in any of His covenants with Abraham and his seed, nor does Joel, who prophesied God promising His Spirit to Israel ever say God's Spirit is promised to non-Hebrew Gentiles. There is no Scripture that says this. So, to claim that God's Spirit is given to Gentiles and not provide Scripture to back your statement up is only you adding to the bible things it does not contain.

As to the Abrahamic, Mosaic and New Covenants....

I agree that the Abrahamic Covenant was made with only Abraham who was a Hebrew...
BUT
It was meant FOR ALL NATIONS in t he future...
God would offer to ALL NATIONS His salvation.

There is NOTHING in the Abraham Covenant described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 that includes Gentiles. The covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's seed, a people later to be known as the children of Israel.
And the Mosaic Covenant God gave to the children of Israel does not mention Gentiles. This is evidenced by the fact among others that the high priest offered sacrifices to and for the children of Israel in covenant with God. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law covenant, He as High Priest fulfilled every precept of the Law of Moses by offering Himself for the sins of the children of Israel. There are no Gentiles in this covenant because for one they are not the seed of Abraham.

As to the Mosaic Covenant,,,yes, it applied only to t he Israelites.
The Law is, in fact, ONLY for the Jews and was not meant for the Gentiles to follow...
this is evident in the Jerusalem Council in Acts.

The New Covenant...I disagree.
The New Covenant is FOR ALL PEOPLE and is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.

The New Covenant is prophesied by Jeremiah and here is the description of the New Covenant as it is written in Scripture. There is NO MENTION of Gentiles in the New Covenant and again you add to the bible things not there:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour (member of another tribe living next to them), and every man his brother (member of the same tribe), saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.

There is no mention of Gentiles in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. You are adding to the bible.

I notice that you're having this same problem, which YOU have created, with others, including @Jim...who is quite tired of debating with you since what you post makes no sense and is incorrect.

Secondly, I'll say that it tires me to debate whether or not water is wet.

So, I also will be bowing out because I also just cannot debate with such a big theologian as yourself.

I have proved you add to the bible. You are infected by a false Constantinian theology that is not found in Scripture. Open your eyes. There are no Gentiles mentioned or included in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah.
None.

 

[Red Baker]

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake. Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

But for now, I want to debate you one on one on many subjects pertaining to Israel. We might as well stay here, since this thread is already moved in this direction.

Let's start with this: Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

I'll let a natural born son of Abraham tell us who that seed might be.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

All the promises to Abraham's seed, were made to Christ. God made incredible promises to Abraham and his seed about 4,000 years ago … promises of a land for an everlasting possession, an innumerable family, destruction of their enemies, and blessings on all nations of the earth. Who is the seed of Abraham? Do not attempt to say that the nations of the earth meant Jews that were part of these nation, for the verse YOU quoted of above clearly stated: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,"...Jeremiah, the Jews were cast away as a whole, but not completely ~ and God is reconciling the WORLD to come and enjoyed the fatness of the Olive tree, the world which was wild by nature...."being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

We both are from Adam, thereby, both are an Olive tree in that sense..... God first chose and formed the nation of Israel, the Jews, to reveal himself to them, and then he chose to visit the Gentiles nations of this world to do the same with them, bringing the children of God's promises to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

The Seed of Abraham is Christ and His elect.​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I'll come back since I have much more to say.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

Cast off? But Saul says "and ALL Israel shall be saved." And saved they ALL shall be for they have that kind of covenant in Moses. And since Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses now the Law is to Israel just as Saul instructs:

16 All [OLD TESTAMENT] scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Ti 3:16–17.

Thus, destroying the false teaching that the Law was "abolished" or [made] "obsolete." If that's the case, then Saul is instructing God's people in Law that doesn't exist. Is that what you believe? If you believe that then NO ONE can be saved for:

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.

The Law brings us to Christ. Take away the Law and NO ONE can be brought to Christ. But thank God that lie is exposed by the very Word of God. And the "reconciling of the world" is in context to whom Saul is writing to and that would be the "world of Jews." It's the same when Jesus said:

16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:16–20.

Context is everything. Jesus came to save His people the Jews:

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

Who are HIS PEOPLE, Red Baker?
The Hebrew people of the seed of Abraham.

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake.

He is taking out FROM AMONG THE GENTILES where He scattered His people a people to Himself: the Jews.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:23–28.

Jesus sent His eleven apostles and Saul and others "TO THE GENTILES" because that's where He scattered His people. Read verse 24 again. Let that settle in your mind. And verse 26 began on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest also known as Pentecost, where 3,000 Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as prophesied by Joel.

Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

Romans 11 is not disputed by me. I understand it. John's gospel, Saul's letters, Peter's letters, Hebrews, and that of James was written to and for Jews so that they may come to know their Lord.

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31.

But for now, I want to debate you one on one on many subjects pertaining to Israel. We might as well stay here, since this thread is already moved in this direction.

No. No deliberate taking over this thread. Copy and paste these sections and start a new thread and let me know where you post it, and I'll answer you according to my knowledge.

Let's start with this: Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

I'll let a natural born son of Abraham tell us who that seed might be.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

All the promises to Abraham's seed, were made to Christ. God made incredible promises to Abraham and his seed about 4,000 years ago … promises of a land for an everlasting possession, an innumerable family, destruction of their enemies, and blessings on all nations of the earth. Who is the seed of Abraham? Do not attempt to say that the nations of the earth meant Jews that were part of these nation, for the verse YOU quoted of above clearly stated: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,"...Jeremiah, the Jews were cast away as a whole, but not completely ~ and God is reconciling the WORLD to come and enjoyed the fatness of the Olive tree, the world which was wild by nature...."being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

We both are from Adam, thereby, both are an Olive tree in that sense..... God first chose and formed the nation of Israel, the Jews, to reveal himself to them, and then he chose to visit the Gentiles nations of this world to do the same with them, bringing the children of God's promises to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

The Seed of Abraham is Christ and His elect.​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I'll come back since I have much more to say.

Copy and paste these statements in a new thread and I will "debate" you.

 

[Red Baker]

R

Thread 'Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?'

Mar 14, 2025

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham...

• Red Baker
• Replies: 29
• Forum: Christian Apologetics

• 

 

[Jim]

@jeremiah1five said

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

"and thou, being a wild olive tree" is a reference to the Gentiles. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge that fact; because, if he did, it would destroy the false idea of the covenant theology that he holds.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

Good morning Jim,

I moved you post here: https://berean-apologetics.communit...of-abraham-heirs-of-the-promises-of-god.2412/