Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[Jim]

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”

Are you calling God a liar by saying the flesh can indeed be subject? The Spirit of God does so much more than to just enable, he does all the work in regeneration, man is passive by being dead in trespasses and sin. John 1:13 is very clear as to teh new birth, You guys love to fight against the truth.

Enough said, unless you feel I need to address any point that I did not, most was basically saying the same thing over, but if you have a scripture or scriptures you want me to comment, then tell, no problem.

Romans 8:1-11, and specifically verse 7, is one of those verses and passages that the Reformed Theology puts forth in support of their false teaching. It does not support it. In fact, verse 7 doesn't say that the unregenerate cannot obey any of God's law. We know from other scriptures that being subject to the law of God actually means to obey God's law perfectly. Here verse 7 just means that in order to "please God", the unregenerate would have to obey God's law perfectly. It does not say that God is not pleased when the unregenerate does indeed obey one or more of the commands of God. How could He not approve of that. Moreover, it says absolutely nothing about whether or not the unregenerate can obey the gospel of God. The gospel and the law are different. They are not the same. Given that no one has ever obeyed the law perfectly does not mean that one cannot obey the gospel.

There is nothing in Romans 8:1-11 that says the those who live according to the flesh are unable to do anything right. Yet that is what the Reformed Theology would have you believe. Reformed Theology would have you believe that if you have disobeyed even one law of God, i.e., committed one sin, then since God hates sin, He must hate everything that you do. What utter nonsense.

 

[Jim]

Why are skipping Ephesians 1:19-21 and going straight to Ephesians 2:1? Quickly, Paul makes it abundantly clear that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, God use to raised his children/sheep from being dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 1:19​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

Here life is put before our faith! You must FIRST be raised from the dead, by the mighty power of God, so that you can believe, not the other way around, which is so foolish to believe in and one only believes this because they want protect their gospel that they have come to embrace!

And why are you skipping Ephesians 1:13-14? Paul makes it abundantly clear that faith is put before life.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

To be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit is to be born again. There is no way to escape that fact. There is no rational argument that one could be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit and not be born again. Here in verse 13 which says that hearing and believing results in being sealed; "when you heard and believed in him, you were sealed....."

 

[jeremiah1five]

It is called the New Testament. Read it, study it, believe it and you will have your answer.

Cop out. You can't answer it, either. And if you were honest with Scripture, you would agree there is no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in Scripture. None at all.

 

[jeremiah1five]

As usual, you are so wrong. The promise is singular: CHRIST, so said Paul.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

You obviously do not understand the birth of Isaac. Sure, 2,500 years later Saul could make correlation of "seed" (singular) as referring to Christ, but with Abraham there is no mention of a "Christ" or "son of God" or "virgin birth." It was referring to him having an heir and that heir was Isaac. A miraculous birth from a dead womb and what Isaac represented. Study it in the context of the time of Abraham and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Galatians 3:29​

“And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Abraham, the father of the faithful and the Friend of God, to whom God gave many great and precious promises, is the father of all who believe in Christ, making them his legitimate heirs. If one have aligned themselves with Christ by faith and baptism, they are the heir of Abraham. It is baptized Christians who are the seed of Abraham and can claim the promises (3:26-27)!

Galatians was written by Saul to the Jew who was under the Law, under the "schoolmaster." Gentiles were NEVER under the Law and so Saul's words are to the Jew and Jewish Christians. All the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation was written by a Jew/Jewish Christian to and for other Jews/Jewish Christians, from Hebrews to James, "to the twelve tribes scattered." Your error is that you think God spends nearly 4,000 years raising a people in Abraham, makes covenant with this people, and sends a Deliverer to this people under His Law and His first words after the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) who seals this covenant with the Hebrew people and God's first words in the New Covenant era is to non-Hebrew Gentiles? You are definitely infected by a Gentile mindset which has no business trying to interpret and understand Hebrew religion, history, and culture of 2,500 years. Instead of using the New Testament to validate the Hebrew Scripture you should use the Hebrew Scripture to validate the New Testament - something that Saul did as rabbi and Pharisee, who by the way remained a rabbi and Pharisee and remained faithful to the Law of Moses.

What singular promise is intended here? Free justification through Christ on Gentiles (3:8). How do you become Christ’s in order to be Abram’s seed? Practically by faith and baptism!

Eternally, God chosen us in Christ by election (Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 1:9; I Corinthians 1:30-31).

Legally, Jesus Christ obeyed, died, and lives for the elect (Romans 5:19; Ist Corinthians 15:22).

Vitally, the Holy Spirit regenerates us in Christ (Ephesians 2:4-6,10; Ist Peter 1:2; John 3:6-8).

Practically, we are Christ’s by our faith and baptism (Romans 13:14; Ephesians 4:24; Philippians 2:12-13).

Finally, we are Christ’s by glorification in heaven (Ephesians 2:6-7; Romans 8:23,29-30; 9:23; Ist Peter 1:5).

All of that is to the Hebrew people who are in covenant with God.
God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None. As a matter of fact non-Hebrew Gentiles are His enemy and the enemy of His covenant people Israel. This is the attitude of Jehovah God against non-Hebrew Gentiles:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

Enormously powerful words. Gentile nations are NOTHING to God.

 

[Red Baker]

And why are you skipping Ephesians 1:13-14? Paul makes it abundantly clear that faith is put before life.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

To be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit is to be born again. There is no way to escape that fact. There is no rational argument that one could be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit and not be born again. Here in verse 13 which says that hearing and believing results in being sealed; "when you heard and believed in him, you were sealed....."

@Jim

I have addressed this more than once, but it did not come up in our discussion as of yet, at least I ahve not seen it.

Ephesians 1:13​

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

I very seldom quote from Calvin, but on this scripture he is dead on the true interpretation of Ephesians 1:13.

"In whom also, after that ye believed. "Having maintained that the gospel is certain, he now comes to the proof. And what higher surety can be found than the Holy Spirit? “Having denominated the gospel the word of truth, I will not prove it by the authority of men; for you have the testimony of the Spirit of God himself, who seals the truth of it in your hearts.” This elegant comparison is taken from Seals, which among men have the effect of removing doubt. Seals give validity both to charters and to testaments; anciently, they were the principal means by which the writer of a letter could be known; and, in short, a seal distinguishes what is true and certain, from what is false and spurious. This office the apostle ascribes to the Holy Spirit, not only here, but in another part of this Epistle, (Ephesians 4:30,) and in the Second Epistle to the Corinthians, (2 Corinthians 1:22.) Our minds never become so firmly established in the truth of God as to resist all the temptations of Satan, until we have been confirmed in it by the Holy Spirit. The true conviction which believers have of the word of God, of their own salvation, and of religion in general, does not spring from the judgment of the flesh, or from human and philosophical arguments, but from the sealing of the Spirit, who imparts to their consciences such certainty as to remove all doubt. The foundation of faith would be frail and unsteady, if it rested on human wisdom; and therefore, as preaching is the instrument of faith, so the Holy Spirit makes preaching efficacious.

But is it not the faith itself which is here said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the sealing. I answer, there are two operations of the Spirit in faith, corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it enlightens, and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction, which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, I have said, are the work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel, were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Jim]

Cop out. You can't answer it, either. And if you were honest with Scripture, you would agree there is no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in Scripture. None at all.

The New Covenant is a covenant between God and the non-Hebrew by grafting.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

 

[Red Baker]

Romans 8:1-11, and specifically verse 7, is one of those verses and passages that the Reformed Theology puts forth in support of their false teaching. It does not support it. In fact, verse 7 doesn't say that the unregenerate cannot obey any of God's law. We know from other scriptures that being subject to the law of God actually means to obey God's law perfectly. Here verse 7 just means that in order to "please God", the unregenerate would have to obey God's law perfectly. It does not say that God is not pleased when the unregenerate does indeed obey one or more of the commands of God. How could He not approve of that. Moreover, it says absolutely nothing about whether or not the unregenerate can obey the gospel of God. The gospel and the law are different. They are not the same. Given that no one has ever obeyed the law perfectly does not mean that one cannot obey the gospel.

There is nothing in Romans 8:1-11 that says the those who live according to the flesh are unable to do anything right. Yet that is what the Reformed Theology would have you believe. Reformed Theology would have you believe that if you have disobeyed even one law of God, i.e., committed one sin, then since God hates sin, He must hate everything that you do. What utter nonsense.

@Jim

Jim I'm leaving shortly, and when I return, I'm going to rest maybe the rest to the day, we shall. So I'll answer you later.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

I have addressed this more than once, but it did not come up in our discussion as of yet, at least I ahve not seen it.

Ephesians 1:13​

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

I very seldom quote from Calvin, but on this scripture he is dead on the true interpretation of Ephesians 1:13.

"In whom also, after that ye believed. "Having maintained that the gospel is certain, he now comes to the proof. And what higher surety can be found than the Holy Spirit? “Having denominated the gospel the word of truth, I will not prove it by the authority of men; for you have the testimony of the Spirit of God himself, who seals the truth of it in your hearts.” This elegant comparison is taken from Seals, which among men have the effect of removing doubt. Seals give validity both to charters and to testaments; anciently, they were the principal means by which the writer of a letter could be known; and, in short, a seal distinguishes what is true and certain, from what is false and spurious. This office the apostle ascribes to the Holy Spirit, not only here, but in another part of this Epistle, (Ephesians 4:30,) and in the Second Epistle to the Corinthians, (2 Corinthians 1:22.) Our minds never become so firmly established in the truth of God as to resist all the temptations of Satan, until we have been confirmed in it by the Holy Spirit. The true conviction which believers have of the word of God, of their own salvation, and of religion in general, does not spring from the judgment of the flesh, or from human and philosophical arguments, but from the sealing of the Spirit, who imparts to their consciences such certainty as to remove all doubt. The foundation of faith would be frail and unsteady, if it rested on human wisdom; and therefore, as preaching is the instrument of faith, so the Holy Spirit makes preaching efficacious.

But is it not the faith itself which is here said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the sealing. I answer, there are two operations of the Spirit in faith, corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it enlightens, and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction, which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, I have said, are the work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel, were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit."

That is a lot of words in a futile attempt to rebut what verse 13 clearly states; namely, that being sealed with the Holy Spirit occurs after hearing the word of truth and after believing. But I am not surprised. That happens a lot in Calvinism/Reformed Theology.

Please note that in your KJV version, the word "trusted" is inserted; it is not in the original. The inserted word alters the meaning of the sentence. Also, the word "that" is an old English usage that strains the original meaning.

Ephesians 1:13​

“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

Now read it correctly,

“In whom ye also, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed, were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

 

[Johann]

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Johann, God's people were saved (in one sense) before they were called! Notice the order given by Paul through the Spirit. When Jesus Christ arose form the dead we were legally Justified in God's sight!

Romans 4:25​

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Paul said that our holy calling (which only God's elect receive) was not according to our works, which includes any act we have an active part in, including faith, which all should understand by knowing the scriptures. Only the new man within us can have faith, which man is created after the image of Jesus Christ, who alone had perfect faith in God.

Paul added our salvation being called out of darkness in the glorious gospel of Christ is according to God's purpose and his grace which grace was given to us in Christ before the world began ~ or, before any had a chance to do good, or evil. Johann you said:

2 Timothy 1:9-Grammatical and Syntactical Breakdown

The passage states:
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Tim 1:9, TR).

Greek Analysis:
"σώσαντος ἡμᾶς" (sōsantos hēmas, "who saved us") – Aorist active participle, genitive singular masculine. This construction suggests an act completed in the past but does not inherently specify whether it was before or after the calling.

"καλέσαντος κλήσει ἁγίᾳ" (kalesantos klēsei hagiāi, "and called us with a holy calling") – Another aorist active participle, implying a past completed action.

The key issue is whether these aorist participles are antecedent (i.e., happening before) or simultaneous with the main action.

The structure does not explicitly indicate that salvation occurred before calling. In Greek, when two aorist participles are used in sequence, they can either denote events occurring at the same time or events in logical order, but context determines this. In this case, Paul emphasizes both salvation and calling as part of God’s sovereign purpose, but does not assert that salvation precedes calling temporally.


Romans 8:30: "Whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Here, calling precedes justification and glorification, suggesting that calling is not a secondary event after salvation, but a necessary step.

Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This demonstrates that a person's response to God’s calling (repentance and faith) is instrumental in the application of salvation.

2. Romans 4:25—Justification and Faith Misapplied
The passage states:
"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Greek Analysis:
"παρεδόθη διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα ἡμῶν" (paredothē dia ta paraptōmata hēmōn, "was delivered for our offences") – Aorist passive indicative, meaning Christ was handed over due to our sins.

"ἠγέρθη διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν ἡμῶν" (ēgerthē dia tēn dikaiōsin hēmōn, "was raised for our justification") – Aorist passive indicative again, meaning His resurrection serves as the basis or proof of our justification.

The phrase "for our justification" does not mean justification was already complete before faith, nor does it imply that justification was automatically applied to the elect at the resurrection. Instead, Paul states that Christ’s resurrection is the foundation of justification, which is applied to individuals when they believe (Romans 5:1).


Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." This shows that justification is through faith, not an automatic decree.

Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ." Faith is instrumental in justification, contradicting the claim that faith is merely a product of a "new man" already created.

Faith is an Active Response, Not a Passive Reception
Your argument asserts that faith is not something individuals have an active part in, but Scripture directly refutes this:

John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

Faith is an act of receiving Christ, not merely something passively imparted.

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." This imperative verb ("believe") shows personal responsibility in faith.

Conclusion
The Greek syntax of 2 Timothy 1:9 does not support the claim that salvation occurs before calling, as both verbs appear in the aorist and are contextually linked.

Romans 4:25 does not teach that justification was complete at the resurrection but rather that Christ’s resurrection is the foundation upon which justification is applied through faith.

The idea that faith is not an active human response contradicts numerous passages where faith is commanded and exercised by individuals in response to the gospel.

Wrong...the proof of God's grace and purpose is seen in the preaching of the gospel, in this...it bring to LIGHT where there is LIFE!

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

The gospel does not bring life, Johann, but it will bring to LIGHT where God has already given life, a big difference!

Your assertion that "the gospel does not bring life but only brings to light where God has already given life" is a theological claim that contradicts the grammatical structure of 2 Timothy 1:10, the semantic range of the Greek terms used, and the broader biblical testimony regarding the role of the gospel in salvation.

1. 2 Timothy 1:10
The passage states:
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

Greek Analysis of Key Phrases

"φανερωθεῖσαν δὲ νῦν" (phanerōtheisan de nyn, "but is now made manifest") – Aorist passive participle, indicating that this action was accomplished in the past but revealed at a specific moment (the appearing of Christ).

"τὴν ζωὴν καὶ ἀφθαρσίαν φωτίσαντος" (tēn zōēn kai aphtharsian phōtisantos, "who hath brought life and immortality to light") – Aorist active participle from φωτίζω (phōtizō, "to bring to light, illuminate"), signifying an action that Christ Himself performed.
"διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου" (dia tou euangeliou, "through the gospel") – The preposition διά (dia) with the genitive indicates means or agency, meaning that life and immortality are illuminated through the gospel.

Your claim that "the gospel does not bring life" misunderstands the participial structure. The verb φωτίζω (phōtizō) does not merely indicate revelation of something preexisting; rather, it often conveys making known something in a way that leads to transformation. The same verb is used in John 1:9: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." The Light (Christ) does not merely reveal but actively illuminates.

Furthermore, the phrase "διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου" (through the gospel) indicates that the means by which life and immortality are brought to light is the gospel itself, implying that the gospel plays an active role in making this reality known and available.

The Gospel as the Means of Life
The assertion that the gospel does not bring life contradicts multiple biblical passages where the gospel is explicitly linked to salvation and life:

Cross-References Demonstrating the Gospel Brings Life

Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." – The gospel is not merely a revelation of life but the power of God for salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." – The gospel is not just an indicator of life but the very means by which salvation is applied.

James 1:18: "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." – The word of truth (the gospel) is instrumental in the begetting of believers.

1 Peter 1:23-25: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever… And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." – The gospel is the means by which regeneration (new life) is accomplished.

3. Logical Rebuttal—If the Gospel Only Reveals Life, It Would Be Unnecessary

If the gospel merely revealed where life already existed, then logically:

The preaching of the gospel would be unnecessary for salvation, contradicting Romans 10:14-17 ("How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?").

The command to preach the gospel for salvation (Mark 16:15-16) would be redundant if salvation were already conferred apart from hearing and believing the gospel.

The biblical emphasis on faith coming through hearing the gospel (Romans 10:17) would be meaningless if faith were an automatic byproduct of an already-existing life.

Conclusion
The Greek structure of 2 Timothy 1:10 demonstrates that life and immortality are brought to light (made known and accessible) through the gospel, not apart from it. The argument that the gospel does not bring life contradicts passages where the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16, 1 Corinthians 1:18), the means by which people are born again (1 Peter 1:23), and the necessary vehicle through which faith comes (Romans 10:17). The assertion is therefore grammatically, theologically, and logically incorrect.

There is war globally and there is war with the Calvinists @Red Baker.

You are making contradicting statements as shown above.

J.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Makes me wonder if it's possible to agree and replace born with original sin with born spiritual death.

Unlike Adam we are not created as adults knowing God, but as babies knowing nothing, spiritual death.

Shoot

Perhaps its much simplier to say that ever since the curse came upon adam and eve
Every one born is born under the curse . THERE BE ONLY ONE way to be FREED from the curse , the curse of sin and of death .
HIS NAME JESUS THE CHRIST and , AND IT DIRE necesarry TO BELIEVE ON HIM .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Who was the book of john addressed .
The same one all them other letters are addressed too ....................THE CHURCH .
And every last word is good meat for our soul .

 

[GodsGrace]

@Johann

Earlier in this thread I addressed Ephesians 2:8,9, and here it is again for you consideration, since last time I think I sent it to @GodsGrace (I think she's taking a long cappuccino break- )

LOL
Been too busy.
Hope you're feeling better.

So Johann, whose faith is under consideration in Ephesians 2:8,9? Certainly not ours, But Christ, which agrees perfectly with other scriptures quoted in our last post to you: Romans 3:22-25; Galatians 2;16, 20; Philippians 3:9; etc.


Johann, the only person here that's misusing the scriptures would be Mr. Johann from South Africa (I just saw a nature TV program on South Africa with all those monkeys running, climbing, everywhere! Pester little creatures, please keep them there.)

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Johann, God's people were saved (in one sense) before they were called! Notice the order given by Paul through the Spirit. When Jesus Christ arose form the dead we were legally Justified in God's sight!

Romans 4:25​

“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Paul said that our holy calling (which only God's elect receive) was not according to our works, which includes any act we have an active part in, including faith, which all should understand by knowing the scriptures. Only the new man within us can have faith, which man is created after the image of Jesus Christ, who alone had perfect faith in God.

Paul added our salvation being called out of darkness in the glorious gospel of Christ is according to God's purpose and his grace which grace was given to us in Christ before the world began ~ or, before any had a chance to do good, or evil. Johann you said:

Not just the plan of salvation ~ but actual salvation secured.. "Who hath saved us...before we were ever called" that why Paul emphasis, not according to our works! But our salvation from sin and condemnation is according to his own purpose and grace. You said:

Wrong...the proof of God's grace and purpose is seen in the preaching of the gospel, in this...it bring to LIGHT where there is LIFE!

2 Timothy 1:10​

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

The gospel does not bring life, Johann, but it will bring to LIGHT where God has already given life, a big difference!


Why are skipping Ephesians 1:19-21 and going straight to Ephesians 2:1? Quickly, Paul makes it abundantly clear that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, God use to raised his children/sheep from being dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 1:19​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”

Here life is put before our faith! You must FIRST be raised from the dead, by the mighty power of God, so that you can believe, not the other way around, which is so foolish to believe in and one only believes this because they want protect their gospel that they have come to embrace!

I'll finish later..

 

[GodsGrace]

Makes me wonder if it's possible to agree and replace born with original sin with born spiritual death.

Unlike Adam we are not created as adults knowing God, but as babies knowing nothing, spiritual death.

Shoot

Which brings up an interesting point:
If a baby is spiritually dead...does it mean he hasn't had the opportunity to acknowledge God yet...
or does it mean a 2 month old that dies is going to hell?

According to Romans 1:19-20 (or 21) I believe it means that the baby has not yet had a chance to acknowledge God.
(we may have discussed this already on another thread).

PS Because he cannot possibly be aware of God as Romans 1 speaks to.

 

[ProDeo]

Which brings up an interesting point:
If a baby is spiritually dead...does it mean he hasn't had the opportunity to acknowledge God yet...
or does it mean a 2 month old that dies is going to hell?

According to Romans 1:19-20 (or 21) I believe it means that the baby has not yet had a chance to acknowledge God.
(we may have discussed this already on another thread).

PS Because he cannot possibly be aware of God as Romans 1 speaks to.

yes, good point.

Maybe they are raised by the angels (or in Paradise like A&E) and make make their choice, just guessing, but with reference to :

Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Dunno.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, good point.

Maybe they are raised by the angels (or in Paradise like A&E) and make make their choice, just guessing, but with reference to :

Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Dunno.

I believe Philippians 2:10 and 11 just means that Jesus is to be worshipped EVERYWHERE....
On earth, in heaven, and even below the earth because even satan knows that he cannot win over Jesus.
Satan does not worship God like we do, but he certainly knows that He is LORD and he is the prince of the air only
because God allows him to be. (for the time being).

I found this quick which would be my understanding....

Of things in heaven - ἐπουρανίων epouraniōn - rather of beings in heaven, the word "things" being improperly supplied by our translators. The word may be in the neuter plural; but it may be also in the masculine plural, and denote beings rather than things. Things do not bow the knee; and the reference here is undoubtedly to angels, and to the "spirits of the just made perfect" in heaven.

If Jesus is worshipped there, he is divine; for there is no idolatry eta creature in heaven. In this whole passage there is probably an allusion to Isaiah 45:23; see it illustrated in the notes at Romans 14:11. In the great divisions here specified - of those in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth - the apostle intends, doubtless, to denote the universe. The same mode of designating the universe occurs in Revelation 5:13; Exodus 20:4; compare Psalm 96:11-12.

This mode of expression is equivalent to saying, "all that is above, around, and beneath us," and arises from what appears to us. The division is natural and obvious - that which is above us in the heavens, that which is on the earth where we dwell, and all that is beneath us.

And things in earth - Rather, "beings on earth," to wit, people; for they only are capable of rendering homage.

And things under the earth - Beings under the earth. The whole universe shall confess that he is Lord. This embraces, doubtless, those who have departed from this life, and perhaps includes also fallen angels. The meaning is, that riley shall all acknowledge him as universal Lord; all how to his sovereign will; all be subject to his control; all recognize him as divine.

The fallen and the lost will do this; for they will be constrained to yield an unwilling homage to him by submitting to the sentence from his lips that shall consign them to woe; and thus the whole universe shall acknowledge the exalted dignity of the Son of God.

source: Commentary Biblehub

 

[jeremiah1five]

The New Covenant is a covenant between God and the non-Hebrew by grafting.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Never does God identify non-Hebrew Gentiles as an Olive tree let alone a wild Olive tree. The Olive tree is Israel and those that are being grafted BACK IN are the disobedient Hebrews/Jews.
Stop adding to the Bible things that are not there.

 

[Red Baker]

LOL
Been too busy.
Hope you're feeling better.

@GodsGrace

Thanks Fran, much better, but still having some problems.. I do understand being too busy ~ here lately, I do have to stop and rest some, or, maybe it just catching my breath, so I can finish this race that we are in, for the joy that is set before us.

 

[Red Baker]

Never does God identify non-Hebrew Gentiles as an Olive tree let alone a wild Olive tree. The Olive tree is Israel and those that are being grafted BACK IN are the disobedient Hebrews/Jews.
Stop adding to the Bible things that are not there.

The only person adding to the word of God on this subject and clinging to Jewish fables would be you, Jeremiah.....look in the mirror and you will find your guy who is a lover of Jewish fables, and a fable it is!. But, I refuse to address this anymore in this thread, but will in another, and it will be easy to do so btw.

 

[Red Baker]

or does it mean a 2 month old that dies is going to hell?

@GodsGrace

First, concerning a present burning hell fire ~ there's no such a place where the wicked go at death? This lie is a added place to the doctrine of purgatory, which the Catholic church as we know it today, made a lot of $$$$$$$$$ off of this false teaching a few years back. So, if there was a purgatory, then it had to be a hellfire for the wicked at death, which is not taught in the scriptures, without using Luke 16:19-31 which can easy be proven a parable. The wicked do not have eternal life, they will perish, after the final judgement, just as the scriptures said many times over. In the meantime, they all are in an unconscious state, and are so, until the resurrection of the last day.

Second, the scripture said little about the resurrection and the final judgement, and infants, they are very silence concerning much of this. What we do know is this: God is very merciful, exceedingly so ~yet no infants will ever stand before him as infants to be judged, that is so illogical to even think so. Again, much is hidden from us, and rightly so. Again, at what age will we all come forth at in the resurrection? We do not know. And it is of no profit to even speculate.

There is a lake of fire where the wicked shall perish, which is the second death, that will not be until this world is destroyed by fire after the final judgement. But, no one will be suffered as long as God is God, that also is so illogical and this lie presents God as an merciless God which he is not. The wages of sin is DEATH, not endless sufferings!

 

[Jim]

Never does God identify non-Hebrew Gentiles as an Olive tree let alone a wild Olive tree. The Olive tree is Israel and those that are being grafted BACK IN are the disobedient Hebrews/Jews.
Stop adding to the Bible things that are not there.

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Paul certainly has you pegged.