Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

@jeremiah1five

R

Thread 'Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?'

jeremiah1five said:
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.
Click to expand...
Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham...
 
jeremiah1five said:
Let's take a look at your passage in Romans 11:17

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Those that are of his flesh refers to Jews.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Who is the "firstfruit"? That would be Jesus Christ.
What does Saul mean by "lump"? He is referring again to Jesus Christ.
Not only that but in also identifying the "root" who is also Jesus Christ he also brings up the branches which are the Jewish people. I see no mention of Gentiles in these preceding verses. Now, to your verse 17.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.
Click to expand...
Good morning J
It would be nice to have a good conversation without descending to insults.....but some do this.

I've looked into the allegory of the olive tree and you do have a good point.
The reason you've stated above is reasonable, but you haven't delved into why the gentiles are called a WILD OLIVE in Matthew 11.
I've found some good articles on the net that will reply to this.
This is regarding why Paul called the Gentiles a wild olive (tree):

Being a wild olive-tree - From this passage it would seem that the olive-tree was sometimes cultivated, and that cultivation was necessary in order to render it fruitful. The cultivated olive-tree is "of the a moderate height, its trunk knotty, its bark smooth and ash-colored, its wood is solid and yellowish, the leaves are oblong, and almost like those of the willow, of a green color, etc. The wild olive is smaller in all its parts." (Calmet.)

The wild olive was unfruitful, or its fruit very imperfect and useless. The ancient writers explain this word by "unfruitful, barren." (Sehleusner.) This was used, therefore, as the emblem of unfruitfulness and barrenness, while the cultivated olive produced much fruit. The meaning here is, that the Gentiles had been like the wild olive, unfruitful in holiness; that they had been uncultivated by the institutions of the true religion, and consequently had grown up in the wildness and sin of nature. The Jews had been like a cultivated olive, long under the training and blessing of God.
source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-17.htm
jeremiah1five said:
From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.
Click to expand...

Every Christian knows the above....
But I found the following article which you might find interesting:
I don't have an opinion either way because I haven't studied this too much...

Now, what does this biblical theology have to do with Romans 11:17–24?

To put it as simply as I can, I believe that it demonstrates clearly that Jesus is the Olive Tree in Paul’s metaphor, along with His body.

Jesus is the true Olive Tree (King) of Israel. He is the Greater David who was made a tree at His crucifixion. He is the tree of life that has rivers flowing from His side that bore His fruit in His season. He is the vine in whom His disciples abide. He is the one that produces fruit within us all. He is the first-fruit from the dead. It’s clear that all of this language is used to describe Him in Scripture.

So, with this in mind, here’s what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 11:17–24.

I believe he’s basically saying the same thing that Jesus said in John 15:1–8, and even expanding upon it.

There, Jesus told His disciples that He was the True Vine, and they were the branches. Those that abided in Him would produce fruit. The Father, who is the vinedresser, would prune them. They would become even more fruitful as a result. And, those who did not bear fruit in him would be broken off and cast into the fire.
source: https://medium.com/@joshrobinson_22...he-olive-tree-of-romans-11-17-24-bf4d0fbd6a7b
jeremiah1five said:
There is nothing new under the sun. What God promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel as the seed of Abraham is written down in the Old Testament. Nowhere does God include Gentiles in any of His covenants with Abraham and his seed, nor does Joel, who prophesied God promising His Spirit to Israel ever say God's Spirit is promised to non-Hebrew Gentiles. There is no Scripture that says this. So, to claim that God's Spirit is given to Gentiles and not provide Scripture to back your statement up is only you adding to the bible things it does not contain.

There is NOTHING in the Abraham Covenant described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 that includes Gentiles. The covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's seed, a people later to be known as the children of Israel.
And the Mosaic Covenant God gave to the children of Israel does not mention Gentiles. This is evidenced by the fact among others that the high priest offered sacrifices to and for the children of Israel in covenant with God. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law covenant, He as High Priest fulfilled every precept of the Law of Moses by offering Himself for the sins of the children of Israel. There are no Gentiles in this covenant because for one they are not the seed of Abraham.

The New Covenant is prophesied by Jeremiah and here is the description of the New Covenant as it is written in Scripture. There is NO MENTION of Gentiles in the New Covenant and again you add to the bible things not there:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour (member of another tribe living next to them), and every man his brother (member of the same tribe), saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31–34.

There is no mention of Gentiles in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah. You are adding to the bible.

I have proved you add to the bible. You are infected by a false Constantinian theology that is not found in Scripture. Open your eyes. There are no Gentiles mentioned or included in the New Covenant prophesied by Jeremiah.
None.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that God made NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES...
OR
That gentiles are not included in any Covenant??

I would agree with the first
but disagree with the second.
 
jeremiah1five said:
16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Click to expand...

I just came across of this.

Isn't that the same reasoning as some / all Calvinist do, instead adding [OF JEWS] adding [OF THE ELECT] ?

Wow....
 
Red Baker said:
R

Thread 'Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?'

jeremiah1five said:
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.
Click to expand...
Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham...
Click to expand...
The promise to build His Church [Greek: "ekklesia" = "called out [ones].") A direct reference to Israel as a "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and beyond. Israel, as was with baby Jesus, were called out of Egypt.

65 And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days.
1 Ki 8:65.

1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
1 Ch 29:1.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psalm 22:25.

And on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL BY JOEL began that building of His Church by delivering from sin three thousand Jews.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41.

IF Israel was cast off as a nation why did Jesus begin the spiritual building of the natural Olive tree Israel with the saving of three thousand Jews? That is a very large number of maybe a million of attendees at this Jewish Feast circa AD 32. But there's more to become saved:

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47.

The Jews having favor with God and the people. And the Lord added thousands to His Church, that Great Congregation of Jews, daily "such as should be saved." Imagine that. A nation you claim is "cast off" [and ended] comes roaring back with the personal salvation of thousands of Jews daily into the foundation of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Seems to me Jesus Christ is not casting off but BUILDING a Church of "called out [ones]."
Thousands and thousands daily were being born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise and having favor with all the Jewish people as they began to see these events as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy of God giving His Spirit - which is necessary to salvation - to the Jews.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all [Hebrew] flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

It doesn't say "In Gentiles" or "among Gentiles" there will be salvation. It says "IN MOUNT ZION AND IN JERUSALEM" - possessions of the Jewish people, owners of the Promised Land that sees the salvation of the Lord.
Everyday going forward thousands and thousands of Jews being born-again in fulfillment of dozens of prophecies to Israel by God were being born-again and being filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise. And to whom was God's Spirit promised to?
To the Jewish people.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:38–40.

I don't see the "casting off" of the Jewish people, but the building and re-building of this great congregation of people. Every day since the Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ is giving the Jewish people His Spirit and is building back up this great congregation of people. Don't you see this? Or, does Scripture hold nothing towards what you are to believe as the truth of God. Can you continue to say and believe the false teaching you claim of God "cast off" this nation of people?

Tell me.
 
Jim said:
@jeremiah1five said

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

"and thou, being a wild olive tree" is a reference to the Gentiles. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge that fact; because, if he did, it would destroy the false idea of the covenant theology that he holds.
Click to expand...
Where in this passage of bringing up Israel as an Olive tree the mentioning of Gentiles?

There is none. If you think adding to the bible things not there, I should do the same.
But I don't. I don't add to the bible concepts and ideas when the text doesn't make such mentioning.

There is nothing in the Old Testament God saying Gentiles are an Olive tree nor a wild Olive tree.

None at all.
 
Red Baker said:
@jeremiah1five

R

Thread 'Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?'

jeremiah1five said:
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.
Click to expand...
Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham...
Click to expand...
Already responded. There is nothing in the text of Romans 11:14-17 Gentiles are an Olive tree.
There is nothing in the Old Testament Gentiles are called an Olive tree by God or any of His prophets.
None at all.
 
GodsGrace said:
Good morning J
It would be nice to have a good conversation without descending to insults.....but some do this.

I've looked into the allegory of the olive tree and you do have a good point.
The reason you've stated above is reasonable, but you haven't delved into why the gentiles are called a WILD OLIVE in Matthew 11.
I've found some good articles on the net that will reply to this.
This is regarding why Paul called the Gentiles a wild olive (tree):

Being a wild olive-tree - From this passage it would seem that the olive-tree was sometimes cultivated, and that cultivation was necessary in order to render it fruitful. The cultivated olive-tree is "of the a moderate height, its trunk knotty, its bark smooth and ash-colored, its wood is solid and yellowish, the leaves are oblong, and almost like those of the willow, of a green color, etc. The wild olive is smaller in all its parts." (Calmet.)

The wild olive was unfruitful, or its fruit very imperfect and useless. The ancient writers explain this word by "unfruitful, barren." (Sehleusner.) This was used, therefore, as the emblem of unfruitfulness and barrenness, while the cultivated olive produced much fruit. The meaning here is, that the Gentiles had been like the wild olive, unfruitful in holiness; that they had been uncultivated by the institutions of the true religion, and consequently had grown up in the wildness and sin of nature. The Jews had been like a cultivated olive, long under the training and blessing of God.
source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-17.htm


Every Christian knows the above....
But I found the following article which you might find interesting:
I don't have an opinion either way because I haven't studied this too much...

Now, what does this biblical theology have to do with Romans 11:17–24?

To put it as simply as I can, I believe that it demonstrates clearly that Jesus is the Olive Tree in Paul’s metaphor, along with His body.

Jesus is the true Olive Tree (King) of Israel. He is the Greater David who was made a tree at His crucifixion. He is the tree of life that has rivers flowing from His side that bore His fruit in His season. He is the vine in whom His disciples abide. He is the one that produces fruit within us all. He is the first-fruit from the dead. It’s clear that all of this language is used to describe Him in Scripture.

So, with this in mind, here’s what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 11:17–24.

I believe he’s basically saying the same thing that Jesus said in John 15:1–8, and even expanding upon it.

There, Jesus told His disciples that He was the True Vine, and they were the branches. Those that abided in Him would produce fruit. The Father, who is the vinedresser, would prune them. They would become even more fruitful as a result. And, those who did not bear fruit in him would be broken off and cast into the fire.
source: https://medium.com/@joshrobinson_22...he-olive-tree-of-romans-11-17-24-bf4d0fbd6a7b

Are you saying that God made NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES...
OR
That gentiles are not included in any Covenant??

I would agree with the first
but disagree with the second.
Click to expand...
Show me in the Old Testament God making a salvation covenant with Gentiles.
Specifically, show me where the Abraham Covenant is described in the OT Gentiles being mentioned or included in this covenant.

Show me in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy God including Gentiles in the Mosaic Covenant which is an extension of the Abraham Covenant.

Show me in Jeremiah 31:31-34 where Jeremiah prophesied of a New Covenant with the House of Israel and Judah Gentiles are mentioned or included.

It's as simple as that.
 

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