Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[Jim]

@GodsGrace

First, concerning a present burning hell fire ~ there's no such a place where the wicked go at death? This lie is a added place to the doctrine of purgatory, which the Catholic church as we know it today, made a lot of $$$$$$$$$ off of this false teaching a few years back. So, if there was a purgatory, then it had to be a hellfire for the wicked at death, which is not taught in the scriptures, without using Luke 16:19-31 which can easy be proven a parable. The wicked do not have eternal life, they will perish, after the final judgement, just as the scriptures said many times over. In the meantime, they all are in an unconscious state, and are so, until the resurrection of the last day.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus suggests that the wicked are not in an unconscious state until resurrection and judgment.

Second, the scripture said little about the resurrection and the final judgement, and infants, they are very silence concerning much of this. What we do know is this: God is very merciful, exceedingly so ~yet no infants will ever stand before him as infants to be judged, that is so illogical to even think so. Again, much is hidden from us, and rightly so. Again, at what age will we all come forth at in the resurrection? We do not know. And it is of no profit to even speculate.

Of course, the nasty concept of Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity says that infants, being in sin and not born again, will indeed die the second death. But, of course, both Original Sin and Total Depravity are disgustingly false. And the infants being born in Original Grace and die before having sinned will be welcomed into the arms of Jesus Christ.

There is a lake of fire where the wicked shall perish, which is the second death, that will not be until this world is destroyed by fire after the final judgement. But, no one will be suffered as long as God is God, that also is so illogical and this lie presents God as an merciless God which he is not. The wages of sin is DEATH, not endless sufferings!

The suffering will be in the intermediate state between physical death and the judgement of the second death knowing that it could have been different with eternal life.

 

[Red Baker]

2 Timothy 1:9-Grammatical and Syntactical Breakdown

@Johann

A another long post by you which is okay, but I'm only going to address the most important points.

Btw, I care nothing about what the so-called Greek say, (so you can save yourself some time when at least posting to me) no more than the apostles care about the originals ~ they had faith in God (Psalms 12) in their translated scriptures handed down to them by ready scribes who were gifted to keep the word of God intact for God's people.

Johann, by all means let us follow the "order of words" in 2nd Timothy 1:9 ~ using the KJV

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Greek Analysis:
"σώσαντος ἡμᾶς" (sōsantos hēmas, "who saved us") – Aorist active participle, genitive singular masculine. This construction suggests an act completed in the past but does not inherently specify whether it was before or after the calling.

"καλέσαντος κλήσει ἁγίᾳ" (kalesantos klēsei hagiāi, "and called us with a holy calling") – Another aorist active participle, implying a past completed action.

The key issue is whether these aorist participles are antecedent (i.e., happening before) or simultaneous with the main action.

The structure does not explicitly indicate that salvation occurred before calling. In Greek, when two aorist participles are used in sequence, they can either denote events occurring at the same time or events in logical order, but context determines this. In this case, Paul emphasizes both salvation and calling as part of God’s sovereign purpose, but does not assert that salvation precedes calling temporally.


Romans 8:30: "Whom he predestinated, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Here, calling precedes justification and glorification, suggesting that calling is not a secondary event after salvation, but a necessary step.

After you quoted the Greek, you said: "does not inherently specify whether it was before or after the calling"...
Well Johann, our English bible is clear..... salvation in the eternal sense is before the calling forth of God's children out of darkness into the light of the glorious truths of God. Grace was freely given to God's very elect according to God eternal purpose, God's grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Question for you to answer: How do you think God was a friend of Abraham "before" Christ ever died for him. God went to his heathen country and called Abraham alone (Isaiah 51:2) because grace and mercy was freely given to him in and through Jesus Christ before God ever created this world and certainly before Abraham ever did good or evil. Have you ever read any subject addressing eternal justification. Justification is used in more than one sense in the scriptures which is very clear to see. https://www.libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm https://www.pristinegrace.org/article.php?id=354 You said:

"The structure does not explicitly indicate that salvation occurred before calling. In Greek, when two aorist participles are used in sequence, they can either denote events occurring at the same time or events in logical order, but context determines this."

Well, Johann, "context" is against you using the Greek and the overall scriptures when taken as a cohesive whole is against your strong desire to use anything but what the scriptures are actually saying. We were saved, THEN CALLED..."Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling"

Acts 2:38: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This demonstrates that a person's response to God’s calling (repentance and faith) is instrumental in the application of salvation.

Johann, I dare say you do not understand this scripture, which has not one thing to do with your regenerate state, a child of God could be in error concerning many truths ~ so, do not take this personal.

Here is my understanding of Acts 2:38. which would prove your use of this scripture, in the manner in which you are attempting to use it, to be error.

Peter had just completed his message concerning Christ's death and resurrection and his exaltation to David's throne which is to be understood spiritually.

Acts 2:30--37~"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Johann, these men were pricked in their hearts ~ what does this mean to you? Let me help you...it proves that at some time God had regenerated these men which said these words to Peter, and why do I say this? Very simply by comparing scriptures with scriptures.

When Stephen preached one of the most powerful sermons recorded in the scriptures apart from Matthew 5-7 preached by Christ, those that heard Stephen had a totally different reaction ~ consider:

Acts 7:54-59~"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Johann, one group were pricked in their hearts, the others were cut to their hearts, one already born of God, the others not as of yet, and maybe some never were!

So, when I read Acts 2:38, this is how I read it, just as God intended for us to do so:

Acts 2:38​

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

For, meaning because of, not in order to obtain! Peter, a man of God understood the evidence of a child of God, and one being a since desire to do what God commands them to do ~ and once he saw that their hearts were truly pricked, he told them what to do. The gift of the holy Ghost was the gift of KNOWLEDGE of knowing that he indwelt all who are believers, power there waiting for them to tap into.

I'll may come back today and finish, if not, tomorrow.

 

[Johann]

After you quoted the Greek, you said: "does not inherently specify whether it was before or after the calling"...
Well Johann, our English bible is clear..... salvation in the eternal sense is before the calling forth of God's children out of darkness into the light of the glorious truths of God. Grace was freely given to God's very elect according to God eternal purpose, God's grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Question for you to answer: How do you think God was a friend of Abraham "before" Christ ever died for him. God went to his heathen country and called Abraham alone (Isaiah 51:2) because grace and mercy was freely given to him in and through Jesus Christ before God ever created this world and certainly before Abraham ever did good or evil. Have you ever read any subject addressing eternal justification. Justification is used in more than one sense in the scriptures which is very clear to see. https://www.libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm https://www.pristinegrace.org/article.php?id=354 You said:

"The structure does not explicitly indicate that salvation occurred before calling. In Greek, when two aorist participles are used in sequence, they can either denote events occurring at the same time or events in logical order, but context determines this."

Well, Johann, "context" is against you using the Greek and the overall scriptures when taken as a cohesive whole is against your strong desire to use anything but what the scriptures are actually saying. We were saved, THEN CALLED..."Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling"

The Function of Aorist Participles in 2 Timothy 1:9
Your argument claims that the two aorist active participles (σώσαντος and καλέσαντος) necessarily indicate a temporal sequence in which salvation is first and calling follows. However, Greek grammar does not support such a rigid reading.

Aorist participles generally denote completed action relative to the main verb, but they do not inherently establish a strict sequence unless the context demands it.

In 2 Timothy 1:9, both σώσαντος ("having saved") and καλέσαντος ("having called") are dependent on ἔδωκεν ("has given"), showing that both salvation and calling are aspects of God's grace that was given in Christ πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων ("before time eternal").

The participles should be understood as describing a single act of divine grace rather than two temporally distinct events.
This is a common construction in Greek where multiple aorist participles function together to describe one comprehensive action. The same pattern appears in Titus 3:5:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς), by the washing of regeneration (διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας) and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Here, salvation (ἔσωσεν) is explained by regeneration and renewal, showing that salvation involves a process that includes calling. Similarly, in 2 Timothy 1:9, salvation and calling are linked as aspects of God's redemptive work.

2. The Logical Order of Salvation and Calling in Scripture
Your argument asserts that salvation (in the eternal sense) precedes calling and justification, appealing to a deterministic interpretation of divine grace. However, key passages contradict this claim:

Romans 8:30 ("Golden Chain of Redemption")

"Whom he predestinated, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Here, calling precedes justification, making it impossible to argue for eternal justification before calling.

If justification were an eternal reality before calling, why does Paul place calling first?
Acts 2:39

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

The promise of salvation is realized in the calling. If eternal justification were already established, there would be no need for calling.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Salvation is "through sanctification and belief of the truth" and is realized through calling by the gospel.
Thus, Scripture teaches that calling is the means by which salvation is applied to the believer in time, rather than salvation being a completed reality before calling.

3. The Theological Error of "Eternal Justification"
Your claim that justification occurred before time contradicts the biblical teaching that justification is applied at the moment of faith.

Romans 5:1: "Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Justification is by faith, not an eternal decree apart from faith.

Galatians 2:16: "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Again, justification happens in time as a response to faith.

If justification were eternal, faith would be unnecessary. Yet, Paul consistently teaches that faith is the means by which justification is received.

4. Misuse of Isaiah 51:2 (Abraham)
The claim that Abraham was justified before Christ’s death because he was chosen and called (Isaiah 51:2) does not support eternal justification.

Romans 4:3 explicitly states:
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Abraham was not justified before his calling but at the moment of faith. His justification was reckoned to him in time, not eternally.

Furthermore, Galatians 3:8 states:

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Justification is tied to faith, not an eternal decree independent of faith.

Conclusion

The Greek grammar of 2 Timothy 1:9 does not establish a rigid temporal sequence proving salvation occurred before calling. Rather, both participles describe the single divine act of God's grace.

The "golden chain" of Romans 8:30 shows that calling precedes justification, refuting eternal justification.
Justification is consistently presented in Scripture as occurring at the moment of faith, not in eternity past.

The appeal to Abraham (Isaiah 51:2) does not support eternal justification, since Abraham was justified by faith in time (Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:8).

Thus-your argument for eternal justification misinterprets both Greek syntax and biblical theology. Salvation is planned in eternity but applied in time through calling, faith, and justification.

So, when I read Acts 2:38, this is how I read it, just as God intended for us to do so:

Acts 2:38​

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

For, meaning because of, not in order to obtain! Peter, a man of God understood the evidence of a child of God, and one being a since desire to do what God commands them to do ~ and once he saw that their hearts were truly pricked, he told them what to do. The gift of the holy Ghost was the gift of KNOWLEDGE of knowing that he indwelt all who are believers, power there waiting for them to tap into.

Acts 2:37 – "Pricked in Their Heart" (κατενύγησαν τὴν καρδίαν)

The Greek word κατανύσσω (katanyssō) means "to pierce thoroughly" or "to agitate violently."

This describes deep conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8: "He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment").

Nowhere does the text indicate that those pricked were already regenerate. Instead, their question, "What shall we do?" shows they had not yet responded in faith.

Acts 7:54 – "Cut to the Heart" (διεπρίοντο ταῖς καρδίαις)
The Greek word διαπρίω (diapriō) means "to saw through" or "to be infuriated."

This describes a reaction of anger rather than repentance, similar to Acts 5:33, where the Sanhedrin was also "cut to the heart" and sought to kill the apostles.

Their reaction was hostility, proving that conviction does not always lead to repentance but depends on one's response to the Spirit.

Both groups experienced conviction, but one group responded with repentance (Acts 2), while the other responded with rage (Acts 7). There is no grammatical or theological basis for claiming that pricked in the heart = already regenerate and cut to the heart = unregenerate. Rather, conviction precedes faith and repentance (John 16:8-9).

2. Acts 2:38 – "For" (εἰς) Does Not Mean "Because Of"

Here your argument claims that "for the remission of sins" (εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν) in Acts 2:38 means "because of" remission of sins rather than "in order to obtain" remission. This claim is grammatically and contextually incorrect.

The Greek Preposition "εἰς" (eis)
The word εἰς ("for") in Greek always expresses movement into or toward something. It never means "because of" in any unambiguous use.
The phrase εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν ("for the remission of sins") is identical to Matthew 26:28:

"This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν."

Did Jesus shed His blood because sins were already forgiven? No. He shed it for the purpose of remission of sins.

Contextual Meaning of Acts 2:38

Peter was answering the question, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37).

If their sins were already remitted, Peter’s instruction to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" would be meaningless.
The connection between repentance, baptism, and remission follows the same pattern as Luke 24:47:
"That repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations."

Repentance leads to remission of sins, not because of it.

The preposition εἰς never means "because of" in this construction. The parallel with Matthew 26:28 and Luke 24:47 confirms that remission of sins is the result of repentance and baptism, not the cause of them.

3. The Meaning of the "Gift of the Holy Ghost"

And here-your argument claims that "the gift of the Holy Ghost" in Acts 2:38 refers to a knowledge that He already indwelt them rather than the actual reception of the Spirit. This is incorrect.

Greek Grammar and Context
The phrase τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος ("the gift of the Holy Ghost") is an objective genitive, meaning that the Holy Spirit Himself is the gift.

This is consistent with Acts 10:45, where "the gift of the Holy Ghost" (same phrase) refers to the Spirit coming upon Cornelius and his household.

The Spirit is received at conversion (Acts 19:2; Ephesians 1:13-14).

The Purpose of the Gift
The Spirit is given as a seal and indwelling presence (Ephesians 1:13; Romans 8:9).
The Spirit empowers believers, but He is more than just knowledge of His indwelling—He indwells them at conversion (John 7:37-39).

The phrase "gift of the Holy Ghost" refers to the Holy Spirit Himself as the gift, not merely knowledge of His presence. The consistent usage in Acts shows that the Spirit is received at conversion, not something believers already have before repenting.

4. The Order of Salvation in Acts 2
Your argument assumes that the people in Acts 2 were already regenerate and that baptism was a sign of an existing reality. However, Peter’s sermon and the response show the following order:

Conviction (Pricked in their heart) → Shows they were not yet saved (Acts 2:37).
Repentance & Baptism → Necessary for remission of sins (Acts 2:38).
Reception of the Holy Spirit → Occurs after repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38).
Compare this with Acts 10:43-48, where:

Faith precedes baptism.
The Holy Spirit is received at the moment of faith.
Baptism follows as a response.
This shows that remission of sins happens at repentance and faith, not before.

Conclusion
The distinction between "pricked in their heart" and "cut to the heart" is arbitrary. Futhermore-conviction by the Spirit does not automatically mean regeneration. Some respond in repentance, others in anger.

Acts 2:38 cannot mean "because of" remission of sins. The Greek εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν means "for the purpose of" remission, as seen in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 24:47.

The "gift of the Holy Ghost" refers to receiving the Spirit Himself, not just knowledge of His presence. The Spirit indwells believers at conversion.

The order in Acts 2 refutes your claim that these people were already regenerate. They heard, were convicted, repented, were baptized, and then received the Spirit.

This passage does not support a doctrine of regeneration preceding faith or repentance. Instead, it confirms that salvation is received through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

More than happy to keep this conversation going brother.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

God's Sovereign Choices

Abraham
Joz 24:2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.
Joz 24:3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

Moses
Ex 2:11 One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens, and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people.
Ex 2:12 He looked this way and that, and seeing no one, he struck down the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
...
Ex 3:4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Paul
Hand 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
Hand 9:2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Hand 9:3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.
Hand 9:4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”
Hand 9:5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
...
Hand 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
Hand 9:16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

--------

God can't be put in a box.

 

[MTMattie]

And why are you skipping Ephesians 1:13-14? Paul makes it abundantly clear that faith is put before life.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

To be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit is to be born again. There is no way to escape that fact. There is no rational argument that one could be sealed with the promised Holy Spirit and not be born again. Here in verse 13 which says that hearing and believing results in being sealed; "when you heard and believed in him, you were sealed....."

@Jim ,You will be debating for ever on this point as you cannot make headway with a KJO person who would not believe another translation even if it served them better.

 

[GodsGrace]

Never does God identify non-Hebrew Gentiles as an Olive tree let alone a wild Olive tree. The Olive tree is Israel and those that are being grafted BACK IN are the disobedient Hebrews/Jews.
Stop adding to the Bible things that are not there

Who is being grafted in or back in??

Are you referring to Romans 11 or something else??

Romans 11
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch * then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Doesn't verse 17 state that the gentiles are a wild olive tree?