When Grace is not Grace

[civic]

As has been already pointed out to you, the immediate context shows us a question being asked and the question being answered.

Hermeneutically, we have nothing to suggest that the answer to the question was intended to sidestep the question itself and say something different, as your interpretation suggests. So it begs the question of why you would look for something other than a direct answer without contextual evidence to suggest it?

The straightforward, logical explanation that the question, “what are the works that God requires?”, is answered by “the work of God” is “that you believe in the one he has sent”, and requires nothing outside of the context to arrive at this conclusion. The implication of the “(this is) the work of God (required)” is a natural understanding in the context of the question posed.

Secondly, you err logically by suggesting that to fulfill the requirement of God means that God owes us simply because we did something. It does not follow that fulfilling the obligation necessarily means God is obligated because of that action, nor that we deserve or have the right to claim God “owes” us now. Merit is never the question, only trust/faith/belief that God will do what he promised, thus, “Abraham believed, and God counted it as righteousness.” God is obligated to himself, not because we’ve earned it, but because God who made the promise cannot lie!


Being Sovereign, God is only obligated to himself- that is nothing outside of himself, ie, us or our actions, can obligate God to do anything.

This is where Paul’s exposition in Romans 4 regarding the promise of God predating the law and Abram’s faith gives insight! God made a promise to Abram, which means God obligates himself to keep it else he becomes a liar.

It doesn’t mean the one believing that God will do what he says is deserving of anything, nor is it our action that forces God into a corner to do something contrary to his desires.

Doug

Spot on. Did @The Rogue Tomato answer this ?

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry there is no mention of sheep here

you are reading your theology into scripture

Sheep are implied since Christ came specifically for them to have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus is Salvation.

That's it.

Not law, not commandments, not self effort, not water baptism, not church membership...


Jesus is Salvation.....and the way God designed the Salvation who is JESUS on THE CROSS to be given to you, is "by Faith".

Jesus gives Salvation and Faith to His Sheep by means of His Cross

 

[civic]

Jesus gives Salvation and Faith to His Sheep by means of His Cross

You made that up

 

[TibiasDad]

Spot on. Did @The Rogue Tomato answer this ?

Not that I recall…How have you been?


Doug

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God grants you faith, though you do not deserve it.

Yup - Eph 2:8,9

 

[TibiasDad]

Grace is not Grace when we add conditions to Salvation,

We don’t add anything; God does!

that God wall only save us after we do something first , like accepting, believing, repenting, or obedience, but Grace causes the effect of repentance, believing and obedience, however, salvation is not based on the effect, but that which caused the effect, Grace !

The Greek does not support this interpretation. The lack of salvation is found in the lack of faith, and the experience of salvation is found only in those who are believing.

Doug

 

[civic]

Not that I recall…How have you been?


Doug

Doing well these days

 

[TomL]

Sheep are implied since Christ came specifically for them to have life Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Nope. There are no sheep in John 20:31

at least not until one believes

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[brightfame52]

You made that up

No Im not.

 

[brightfame52]

We don’t add anything; God does!

The Greek does not support this interpretation. The lack of salvation is found in the lack of faith, and the experience of salvation is found only in those who are believing.

Doug

God doesnt add anything to Grace, He saves by Grace, all of Salvation is by Grace and not of works. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the conditions to save by Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope. There are no sheep in John 20:31

at least not until one believes

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Sheep are implied in Jn 20:31 its understood from other scripture Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[TomL]

God doesnt add anything to Grace, He saves by Grace, all of Salvation is by Grace and not of works. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the conditions to save by Grace.

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[TomL]

Sheep are implied in Jn 20:31 its understood from other scripture Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Sorry those who never followed are not sheep

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

It tells you there faith is by Grace.! Believers believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry those who never followed are not sheep

Sheep are implied in Jn 20:31 its understood from other scripture Jn 10:10

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[Sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[TibiasDad]

God doesnt add anything to Grace, He saves by Grace, all of Salvation is by Grace and not of works. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the conditions to save by Grace.

Does the Bible teach Grace alone, or are there other components involved- say faith, repentance, confession etc?
God sets the rules, the protocol that must be followed in order to save us. By grace-through faith (and with repentance and confession), not be grace alone!

Doug

 

[MTMattie]

Jesus is Salvation.

That's it.

Not law, not commandments, not self effort, not water baptism, not church membership...


Jesus is Salvation.....and the way God designed the Salvation who is JESUS on THE CROSS to be given to you, is "by Faith".

Understood.

But can you explain the meaning of John 6:53

53 Then Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! I tell you that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life — that is, I will raise him up on the Last Day

This is from the Complete Jewish Bible.... (my current go to)

Rella

 

[Behold]

Jesus gives Salvation and Faith to His Sheep by means of His Cross

God offers Christ on The Cross as the Blood Atonement, to "ALL who will believe".

That is John 3:16 that Calvin denies, as do his Disciples.

 

[MTMattie]

Jesus gives Salvation and Faith to His Sheep by means of His Cross

Jesus does not "give" faith.