All the Verses That Show Us Salvation Can Occur Without Water Baptism

[Complete]

'We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
and not to please ourselves.
Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
For even Christ pleased not Himself; but, as it is written,
The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you
to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Wherefore receive ye one another,
as Christ also received us to the glory of God.'
(Rom 15:1-7)

* May God's will be done in each one of us, for His Name and Glory's sake. @101G . Thank you for your response my friend.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our risen and glorified,
Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[dwight92070]

great, so why bring up what the NBR had to say... (or not say?).

101G

As if often the case, your question doesn't make sense. The NBR (no baptism required) doesn't talk, so it says nothing. IF you're asking why I am bringing up all the verses that refer to salvation without baptism, the answer is #1 -because they're part of God's word, the Bible and #2 -because they confirm that baptism is not required in order to be saved.
Any more questions? If so, then please be sure that they make sense before you send them.

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

I agree with this verse 100%. However, this verse does NOT say that he who has believed and has NOT been baptized shall be lost, which is the way that several persons on this forum interpret it. That is a wrong interpretation.

Regarding Luke 20:1-7, those verses do NOT apply to our discussion here. NOBODY here is arguing that water baptism is NOT commanded by Jesus and that all saved people should NOT submit to it. It's just the opposite. So for you to even bring up this passage tells me that you don't understand what I have been saying, right from the beginning of this thread.

 

[Complete]

'Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;'
(1Cor. 10:1-2)

Hi @dwight92070,

The baptism 'unto Moses' by passing through the sea, was on dry ground, no water involved. Believing Israelites of every generation identify with Moses in that historical crossing, when God parted the waters of the sea for them to cross over dry-shod.

Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, by the Holy Spirit the moment they believe. A waterless baptism, not made with hands. This is the 'one baptism' of Ephesians four, which is part of 'The Unity Of The Spirit' that we are to 'keep'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[dwight92070]

2 Corinthians 3:16 "but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." No baptism mentioned.

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. No baptism required.

2 Corinthians 5:18 "Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation." BNR

2 Corinthians 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." BNR (Baptism not required)

2 Corinthians 7:10 "For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, ..." BNR

Galatians 2:16-17 " ... even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ (and baptism? No.) and not by the works of the Law (or baptism); ..."

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ (in baptism? No.); and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; ..."

Galatians 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law (or baptism), then Christ died needlessly."

Galatians 3:2 " ... did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law (or baptism), or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (or baptism)?"

Galatians 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who (have been baptized? No.) are of faith who are sons of Abraham."

Galatians 3:8 "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles (by baptism? No) by faith, ..."

Galatians 3:9 "So then those who are (baptized? No.) of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer."

Galatians 3:11 "Now that no one is justified by the Law (or baptism) before God is evident; for 'The righteous man shall live by (being baptized? No.) faith."

Galatians 3:14 " ... in order that (in baptism? No.) in Christ Jesus ... we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith (and baptism? No.) in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Galatians 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith (and baptism? No) in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 3:27 "For all of you who were baptized into Christ (For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body 1 Cor. 12:13 - not water) have clothed yourselves with Christ."

Galatians 6:14 "But may it never be that I would boast, except in (my baptism? No.) the cross of Jesus Christ, "

Galatians 6:15 "For neither is circumcison (or baptism) anything, nor uncircumcision, (or not being baptized), but a new creation."

 

[dwight92070]

'Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;'
(1Cor. 10:1-2)

Hi @dwight92070,

The baptism 'unto Moses' by passing through the sea, was on dry ground, no water involved. Believing Israelites of every generation identify with Moses in that historical crossing, when God parted the waters of the sea for them to cross over dry-shod.

Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is identified with Christ in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, by the Holy Spirit the moment they believe. A waterless baptism, not made with hands. This is the 'one baptism' of Ephesians four, which is part of 'The Unity Of The Spirit' that we are to 'keep'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good point. I had not noticed that.

 

[Seabass]

It is very rare for just one verse to exhaust all there is to know about a subject. When it comes to the subject of salvation there are dozens times dozens of verses that deal with salvation and ALL of them have to be taken into consideration to learn about salvation. In taking consideration all salvific verses, one will not find baptism specifically mentioned in every salvific verse, yet that does not make baptism unnecessary to salvation. Belief is not specifically mentioned in every single salvific verse but that does not make belief unnecessary. Repentance is not specifically mentioned in every salvific verse but that does not make it unnecessary. One cannot ignore verses that do not fit ones personal theological bias.

If a requirement to repent were mentioned just once, then that one time is all that is needed to make it necessary to salvation. If a requirment to be water baptized were mentioned just once, then that's all needed to make it necessary to salvation.

If one takes all the NT in concert, one will find it takes for the alien sinner to be saved hearing the gospel, belief, repentance, confession and baptism. A personal theological bias can prevent one from searching ALL of God's counsel (Acts 20:27)

 

[Complete]

It is very rare for just one verse to exhaust all there is to know about a subject. When it comes to the subject of salvation there are dozens times dozens of verses that deal with salvation and ALL of them have to be taken into consideration to learn about salvation. In taking consideration all salvific verses, one will not find baptism specifically mentioned in every salvific verse, yet that does not make baptism unnecessary to salvation. Belief is not specifically mentioned in every single salvific verse but that does not make belief unnecessary. Repentance is not specifically mentioned in every salvific verse but that does not make it unnecessary. One cannot ignore verses that do not fit ones personal theological bias.

If a requirement to repent were mentioned just once, then that one time is all that is needed to make it necessary to salvation. If a requirment to be water baptized were mentioned just once, then that's all needed to make it necessary to salvation.

If one takes all the NT in concert, one will find it takes for the alien sinner to be saved hearing the gospel, belief, repentance, confession and baptism. A personal theological bias can prevent one from searching ALL of God's counsel (Acts 20:27)

Hello @Seabass,

Yes there are many verses that relate to salvation, and you are right to say that we should not rest our belief upon just one verse. We should also enquire not only what is said, but by whom, to whom, at what time, and in what circumstance, considering what comes before and what follows, for though all Scripture is FOR us not all is ABOUT us.

God has spoken in sundry ways and in divers manners (Heb.1:1-2), and what applies to one people at one time, may not be applicable to another people at another time. For God's dealings with mankind undergoes change within the record of Scripture: That is why we should take note of Paul's instruction to Timothy, in 2 Timothy 2:15, and apply it ourselves;- Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.'

Yet in the epistles written by Paul, from prison towards the end of his life, in which Timothy is given instruction for the Church which is the Body of Christ, by Divine revelation, namely (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon): Paul gives instruction concerning, 'The Unity Of The Spirit', that we are to keep: Within which there is but one baptism mentioned, which has to be baptism of and by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:1-6): Because we are given reason to believe that this supercedes baptism in water by the words of such as John the Baptist in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ, in Matthew 3:11a. 'I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, ... '.

Throughout the Acts period there were two baptisms in operation, but following the revelation of God to Paul, and revealed in Ephesians, there is now only one, and that is of the Spirit, and takes place the moment we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord. This identifies us with Christ in His death, burial, quickening, and His resurrection to life before God in the spirit, in Him.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Seabass]

Hello,

Eph 4:5 "one baptism" (baptizo). Proper exogesis is required here. Proper exogesis requires when translating that words must be taken at their primary, literal face value unless something in the verse proves otherwise. The primary meaning of baptizo is to immerse, submerge, dip. Strong's says of baptizo: 'Meaning: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize." Strong's gives the usage of baptizo: "Usage: The term "baptizó" primarily means to immerse or submerge in water." Paul in Rom 6 defined the action of baptism as a "burial".

Therefore in Eph 4:5 baptizo should be understood by its literal primary meaning; immersion, submerge, to dip since there is nothing in the context showing it to being used in any other figurative way. F.F. Bruce - “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). Again, nothing in the context shows baptizo being used in any other way than by its literal primary meaning to immerse, submerge...a burial as Paul calls it. One must substitute a theological bias into Eph 4:5 to remove baptizo from its literal primary meaning. Since "one Lord" refers to the literal Lord and "one Spirit" refers to the literal Spirit then "one baptism" refers to the literal immersion, burial in water.


a)
In Eph 1:1-7 more than once Paul says of those Christians in Ephesus that there were spiritually located 'in Christ" or "in Him" Water baptism is the way of access to being in Christ, buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:3-6). "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Gal 3:27

b)
those Ephesians had been "forgiven", Eph 4:32 and forgiveness of sins is only through obeying the command to be water baptized (Acts 2:38)

c)
Eph 5:26 those Ephesians had been cleansed by washing of water a clear reference to water baptism.

Jn 3:5 ---------------Spirit ++++++++++++++++++water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> born again
1 Cor 12:13--------Spirit ++++++++++++++++baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the body
Tts 3:5------------Holy Spirit++++++++++++washing of reg. >>>>>>>>>>>>> saved
Eph 5:26 ----------the word ++++++++++++washing of water >>>>>>>>>> cleansed

Since there is but one way to be saved/born again, no alternatives, then all above verses must agree that water baptism is the means by which one is born again and it becomes very clear those Ephesians had been born again when they were water baptized.

d)
Eph 2:8 'by faith are ye saved'
Faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves Eph 2:8
baptism >>>>>>>>>>>> saves 1 Pet 3:21

Again, since there is but one way to be saved then NT faith MUST include water baptism therefore those Ephesians faith MUST have included being water baptized for the remission of sins.

====================================================

Nowhere in the NT is baptism with the Holy Spirit commanded to anyone so it cannot be something that is obeyed as water baptism has been commanded. Nowhere in the NT says baptism with the HS remits sins, no verse says baptism with the HS saves.

Hence the one baptism of Eph 4:5 must be Christ's water baptism of the great commission. Paul was under this commission as all disciples are under it.

 

[Seabass]

Anaylsis of the great commission of Matt 28:19-20:

a) this baptism was commanded
b) it was to be administered by humans..disciples
c) is is the mode by which disciples are made
d) it is therefore to last till the end of time

NONE of the above are true about baptism with the HS eliminating that baptism from being the baptism of the great commission, eliminating it from being the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

a) Again, no one was ever commanded to be baptized with the HS yet water baptism is commanded so it is something that can be obeyed. The fact water baptism is commanded if for no other reason makes it essential for disobedience to God's commands is unrighteousness, disobedience, rebellion..not submitting to water baptism therefore is sin and sin is what causes one to be lost, separated from God

b) Baptism of the great commission has humans administering it and no human alive today can administer baptism with the HS only the Lord can do that (Mt 3:11).

c) water baptism is the mode by which disciples are made hence there is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian, that idea only exist in the figment of some people's imagination

d) since water baptism is the mode by which Chrisitans are made and Christianity is to last till the end of time then water baptism must also last till the end of time in order to perpetuate Christianity.

Again, Paul was under this great commission, he obeyed the command to be water baptized (Acts 22:16) he water baptized others (1 Cor 1:14,16) and taught water baptism as a burial and resurrection (Rom 6). Paul as an Apostle had no authority to change or rescind God's command to be water baptism..and Paul never did else he preached a false gospel.

Paul writes in 2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

a) from this verse we find OBEDIENCE, NOT FAITH ONLY, is the separating line between those lost in flaming fire and those saved.

b) Paul specifically says one must obey the "gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

What was the gospel Paul preached? the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). If one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, how does one obey these historical facts of Christ's death, burial and resurrection?

Paul tells us in Rom 6:
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

In order to become a Christian one must DIE to sin, then the old man of sin is BURIED in a watery grave then "raised up" from that water grave to then walk in newness of life. Hence there is a death, burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism....there is no death burial resurrection in faith only-ism or in saying a "sinner's prayer" or in any "spirit" baptism. Again, one must OBEY the gospel by obeying the command to be water baptized...no one has been commanded to be baptized in the HS hence it cannot be the one baptism of Eph 4:5, not the baptism of the great commission, not how one obeys the gospel per 2 Thess 1:8

Rom 6:17
"...ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Those Romans OBEYED, no faith only. They obeyed and since baptism with the HS has not been commanded it is not something that can be obeyed. Water baptism has been commanded so it can be obeyed or disobeyed by refusing to submit to it. Those Romans obeyed that FORM of doctrine, the word form here is typos meaning a pattern. What was that pattern they obeyed? Water baptism! For there is a death burial and resurrection in water baptism which is a pattern after Christ's death burial and resurrection.

=============================================

Saul went about persecuting the church, attempting to destroy the faith. Yet as a converted Paul we find:
That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. (Gal 1:23)


"The faith" (and there is but ONE FAITH (Eph 4)) that Saul went about destroying but the converted Paul "now preacheth" (present tense) would be that exact same gospel of Christ which Peter preached in Acts 2:38 that commanded repentance and water baptism for the remission of sin. Peter in Acts 2 preached the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8, that is, Peter preached the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and those Jews in Acts 2 that obeyed the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8 by being water baptised, they DIED, were BURIED in a watery grave and were RESURRECTED, raised up from that watery grave having all sin remitted whereby they could then walk in newness of life.

 

[dwight92070]

Anaylsis of the great commission of Matt 28:19-20:

a) this baptism was commanded
b) it was to be administered by humans..disciples
c) is is the mode by which disciples are made
d) it is therefore to last till the end of time

NONE of the above are true about baptism with the HS eliminating that baptism from being the baptism of the great commission, eliminating it from being the one baptism of Eph 4:5.

a) Again, no one was ever commanded to be baptized with the HS yet water baptism is commanded so it is something that can be obeyed. The fact water baptism is commanded if for no other reason makes it essential for disobedience to God's commands is unrighteousness, disobedience, rebellion..not submitting to water baptism therefore is sin and sin is what causes one to be lost, separated from God

b) Baptism of the great commission has humans administering it and no human alive today can administer baptism with the HS only the Lord can do that (Mt 3:11).

c) water baptism is the mode by which disciples are made hence there is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian, that idea only exist in the figment of some people's imagination

d) since water baptism is the mode by which Chrisitans are made and Christianity is to last till the end of time then water baptism must also last till the end of time in order to perpetuate Christianity.

Again, Paul was under this great commission, he obeyed the command to be water baptized (Acts 22:16) he water baptized others (1 Cor 1:14,16) and taught water baptism as a burial and resurrection (Rom 6). Paul as an Apostle had no authority to change or rescind God's command to be water baptism..and Paul never did else he preached a false gospel.

Paul writes in 2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

a) from this verse we find OBEDIENCE, NOT FAITH ONLY, is the separating line between those lost in flaming fire and those saved.

b) Paul specifically says one must obey the "gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

What was the gospel Paul preached? the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). If one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ, how does one obey these historical facts of Christ's death, burial and resurrection?

Paul tells us in Rom 6:
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

In order to become a Christian one must DIE to sin, then the old man of sin is BURIED in a watery grave then "raised up" from that water grave to then walk in newness of life. Hence there is a death, burial and resurrection that takes place in water baptism....there is no death burial resurrection in faith only-ism or in saying a "sinner's prayer" or in any "spirit" baptism. Again, one must OBEY the gospel by obeying the command to be water baptized...no one has been commanded to be baptized in the HS hence it cannot be the one baptism of Eph 4:5, not the baptism of the great commission, not how one obeys the gospel per 2 Thess 1:8

Rom 6:17
"...ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Those Romans OBEYED, no faith only. They obeyed and since baptism with the HS has not been commanded it is not something that can be obeyed. Water baptism has been commanded so it can be obeyed or disobeyed by refusing to submit to it. Those Romans obeyed that FORM of doctrine, the word form here is typos meaning a pattern. What was that pattern they obeyed? Water baptism! For there is a death burial and resurrection in water baptism which is a pattern after Christ's death burial and resurrection.

=============================================

Saul went about persecuting the church, attempting to destroy the faith. Yet as a converted Paul we find:
That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. (Gal 1:23)


"The faith" (and there is but ONE FAITH (Eph 4)) that Saul went about destroying but the converted Paul "now preacheth" (present tense) would be that exact same gospel of Christ which Peter preached in Acts 2:38 that commanded repentance and water baptism for the remission of sin. Peter in Acts 2 preached the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8, that is, Peter preached the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and those Jews in Acts 2 that obeyed the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8 by being water baptised, they DIED, were BURIED in a watery grave and were RESURRECTED, raised up from that watery grave having all sin remitted whereby they could then walk in newness of life.

Time to clarify again because certain people wish to twist my objective. I have never said that baptism is not required, if one wishes to be obedient to Christ - it is required, AFTER one is born again. It is NOT required in order to BE BORN AGAIN. The Bible nowhere tells people who are NOT born again to be water baptized. Rather it tells them to be born again first, then get baptized in water.

 

[Seabass]

Time to clarify again because certain people wish to twist my objective. I have never said that baptism is not required, if one wishes to be obedient to Christ - it is required, AFTER one is born again. It is NOT required in order to BE BORN AGAIN. The Bible nowhere tells people who are NOT born again to be water baptized. Rather it tells them to be born again first, then get baptized in water.

In post #20 you said the following (in blue)
"IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT list these verses to, in any way, discourage water baptism. AFTER we believe, we should ALL obey Jesus and be water baptized as He commanded. These are listed to show us clearly that water baptism is NOT REQUIRED IN ORDER TO BE SAVED or we could say "water baptism will NOT save us".

You are saying water baptism is not required to be saved but water baptism required in order to be obedient to Christ. Here are the issues I have with this idea:

--the fact water baptism is commanded makes it essential to salvation if for no other reason. Not obeying Christ is unrighteousness, it's disobedience...disobedience is sin and sin is the reason a person is lost.

--if one can disobey the command to be water baptized and still be saved, then you have God saving one living in disobedeince to His will and GOd does not unconditionally save the disobedient/unrighteous.

--it one can disobey the command to be baptized and still be saved, then why not disobey the command to believe or the command to repent and still be saved? Why not just live disobefiently to all the NT and be saved anyway?

--I don't know your background but Baptist falsely teach water baptism is not essential to salvation but is essential to be a member of the Baptist denomination. Logically then, being a member of the Baptist denomination is not essential to salvation either, so why be a Baptist? The Bible teaches water baptism gives one access into the Body of Christ, the church and it is only in this body/church salvation can be found. Evidently the Baptist denomination is not the one body found in the NT.

 

[dwight92070]

Ephesians 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (that we would be baptized? No) that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Ephesians 1:5 "He predestined us to adoption as sons through (our baptism? No) Jesus Christ to Himself, according to (our water baptism? No) the kind intention of His will,"
Ephesians 1:6 "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us (in our baptism? No) in the Beloved."
Ephesians 1:7 "In (baptism? No) Him we have redemption through (baptism? No) His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to (our baptism? No) the riches of His grace."
Ephesians 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been (baptized? No) predestined according to His purpose who works all things after (we've been baptized? No) the counsel of His will."
Ephesians 1:12 "to the end that we who were the first to (be baptized? No) hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also (been baptized? No) believed, you were sealed in (baptism? No) Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 1:15 "For this reason I too, having heard of (your baptism? No) the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your (baptism? No0 love for all the saints,"
Ephesians 1:19 "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who (are baptized? No) believe."
Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of (our baptism? No) His great love ... even when we were dead in our transgression, made us alive together (in Baptism? no) in Christ [by grace (and baptism? No) you have been saved],"
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace (and baptism? No) you have been saved through (baptism? No) faith; and that (salvation) not (because you were baptized) of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of (baptism) works, so that no one may boast."
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (when we were baptized? No) for good works,"
Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near (by baptism? No) in the blood of Christ."
Ephesians 2:15 "so that in (baptism? No) Himself He might make the two into one new man,"
Ephesians 2:16 "and might reconcile them both in one body through (baptism? No) the cross"
Ephesians 2:18 "for through (baptism? No) Him we both have our access (through baptism? No) in one Spirit to the Father."
Ephesians 2:19 "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but (because of baptism? No) you are fellow citizens with the saints ..."
Ephesians 3:6 "the Gentiles are fellow heirs of the promise in Christ Jesus through {baptism? No) the gospel,"
Ephesians 3:12 "in whom we have boldness and confident access through (baptism? No) faith in Him."
Ephesians 5: 8 "for you were formerly darkness, but now (because you were baptized? No) you are light in the Lord; "

 

[Seabass]

Ephesians 1:4 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (that we would be baptized? No) that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Ephesians 1:5 "He predestined us to adoption as sons through (our baptism? No) Jesus Christ to Himself, according to (our water baptism? No) the kind intention of His will,"
Ephesians 1:6 "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us (in our baptism? No) in the Beloved."
Ephesians 1:7 "In (baptism? No) Him we have redemption through (baptism? No) His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to (our baptism? No) the riches of His grace."
Ephesians 1:11 "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been (baptized? No) predestined according to His purpose who works all things after (we've been baptized? No) the counsel of His will."
Ephesians 1:12 "to the end that we who were the first to (be baptized? No) hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
Ephesians 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also (been baptized? No) believed, you were sealed in (baptism? No) Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 1:15 "For this reason I too, having heard of (your baptism? No) the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your (baptism? No0 love for all the saints,"
Ephesians 1:19 "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who (are baptized? No) believe."
Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of (our baptism? No) His great love ... even when we were dead in our transgression, made us alive together (in Baptism? no) in Christ [by grace (and baptism? No) you have been saved],"
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace (and baptism? No) you have been saved through (baptism? No) faith; and that (salvation) not (because you were baptized) of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of (baptism) works, so that no one may boast."
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (when we were baptized? No) for good works,"
Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near (by baptism? No) in the blood of Christ."
Ephesians 2:15 "so that in (baptism? No) Himself He might make the two into one new man,"
Ephesians 2:16 "and might reconcile them both in one body through (baptism? No) the cross"
Ephesians 2:18 "for through (baptism? No) Him we both have our access (through baptism? No) in one Spirit to the Father."
Ephesians 2:19 "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but (because of baptism? No) you are fellow citizens with the saints ..."
Ephesians 3:6 "the Gentiles are fellow heirs of the promise in Christ Jesus through {baptism? No) the gospel,"
Ephesians 3:12 "in whom we have boldness and confident access through (baptism? No) faith in Him."
Ephesians 5: 8 "for you were formerly darkness, but now (because you were baptized? No) you are light in the Lord; "

1)
I made points in post #48 how those Ephesians had been water baptized

2)
Paul's epistles, as the one to the Ephesians, was written to Christians, that is, Paul was writing to those who had already been water baptized so you will not find Paul telling people to be baptized who already were baptized.

3)
2 Thess 1:8 God in flaming fire will have vengeance upon those who "obey not the gospel of Christ" and this includes every one, including those Ephesians. Those Ephesians would have been lost, would be in flaming fire had they not OBEYED the gospel. So the dividing line between the saved and lost is OBEDIENCE not faith only.

Therefore people must obey the gospel to be saved/not be in flaming fire, how does one obey the gospel?

Paul said the gospel he preached was the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4). How does one obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? Rom 6 Paul explains that when a person is water baptized he must DIE to sin, the old man of sin literally BURIED in a watery grave from which he RAISED UP FROM to then walk in newness of life. So there is a death, burial and resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized...there is no death, burial and resurrection in faith only-ism, nor in saying some 'sinner's prayer' or in any "spirit" baptism. If one has not been water baptized per the Bible then one has not OBEYED the gospel.

4)
all the belief only in the world will not save an impenitent person, Lk 13:3 nor will it save those who will not confess Christ (Mt 10:32-34) or those who will not be water baptized (2 Thess 1:8). This must mean that a NT belief INCLIDES repentance, confession and baptism. Hence the verb "believed" is used as a figure of speech, a synechdoche..a part for the whole where the part (believe) includes the whole (repentance, confession, baptism). And we know from Eph 1:13 those Ephesians "believed" meaning they repented of sins, confessed Christ with the mouth and were water baptized for remission of sins.

Consider Acts 2:41,44:
v41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
v44 - And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

From v41 those that received the gospel as preached by Peter were baptized, meaning those that rejected the gospel were NOT baptized. So who are the ones said to have "believed" in 44? The ones who rejected the gospel and were not baptized? No. The ones who "believed" were the ones baptized per v41 therefore here in v44 we have "believed" including being baptized.


5)

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Also, consider the logical conclusion of Acts 2:41. Those who received the word were baptized meaning those who rejected the word rejected being baptized. The logical conclusion is being baptized is HOW one receives the word not being baptized is HOW one rejects the word. Receiving the word means being obedient to that word. Those that obeyed the command to repent and be baptized received the word while those that would not obey by repenting and being baptized rejected the word. Those that would not obey cannot in anyway be said to receive something they rejected.

Acts 8:14 - Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
How did those Samaritans receive the word? By being baptized, v12

Acts 11:1- "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God."
How did the Gentiles in Acts 10 receive the word? By obeying the command to be water baptized (Acts 10:47-48) as those Jews in Acts 2. Thus water baptism is the (Acts 15:11) 'like manner way" the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved. Again, Acts 11:1 says the Gentiles "ALSO" received the word of God meaning the Gentiles ALSO received the word of God in Acts 10 in the same manner as the Jews had received the word of God in Acts 2 HOW? By obeying the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins....the "like manner way" Jews and Gentiles received the word of God and were saved. Had any Gentile refused to obey the command to be water baptized he would be rejecting the word as preached by Peter.

 

[dwight92070]

Your logic is faulty. After we're saved, we are commanded to do literally hundreds of things, including baptism in water. In fact, I've heard that there are over 1000 commands given in the New Testament. For example wives are told to subject themselves to their husbands. So if a wife obeys that, according to your logic, she will be saved. We are commanded to abstain from sexual immorality. So if we obey that, according to your logic, we will be saved. We are commanded to avoid "bad company". If we obey that, according to your logic, we will be saved. But none of these will save us. They're good things to obey, but they won't save anyone. Yes, baptism should be the first command to obey after we're saved, even though that's not always possible. I was baptized approximately 2 weeks after I was saved. No one taught me to get it done sooner. In fact, a lady at the church that I attended the previous Sunday in downtown San Antonio called and asked if I wanted to get baptized. I had just read that Jesus was baptized. I thought that if Jesus did that, then I wanted to also. So I said yes. Had that lady not called, it may have been months before I realized that I should be baptized. Even if I had wanted to be baptized sooner, it wouldn't have happened. I was living alone in my Air Force barracks. I probably would have called the chaplain on base and asked him if I could be baptized. Assuming that the chaplain was even a believer (many were not), he would most likely have told me the next available date for baptisms to occur.

You said: -the fact water baptism is commanded makes it essential to salvation if for no other reason. Not obeying Christ is unrighteousness, it's disobedience...disobedience is sin and sin is the reason a person is lost.

No wonder you're confused. You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.

Think again.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

As I said before, the OT is full of Saints that were not regenerated yet. So how can one be saved without being regenerated?

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Abraham was seen as righteous. Then by defenition he was seen ot as a sinner, and he was regenerated

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Pentecost had not yet happened in the OT. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred, not before.

As I said before, the NT is full of Regenerated Saints but there's not even one in the OT. It is utter heresy to say that you are regenerated without the Holy Spirit regenerating you.

OT Saints went to the Paradise portion of Hades. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man illustrated that fact. There was no indication of anyone being regenerated yet. Pentecost had not yet happened at the Transfiguration. The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out (at Pentecost) only after the Cross and his Ascension had occurred.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Life Giver and Jesus poured Him out only after the Cross and his Ascension. Your heresy is typical of anti-Bible unitarians (Muslims, JWs, Judaizers, etc...) who mock the Trinity and therefore contribute to their own demise.

I can just envision Muslims at Pentecost mocking it by asking what's the big deal about it. It's just another day at the office for them.

Regeneration means literally a person has been made alive.

We are made alive because we are justified (given Gods righteousness)

Abraham was justified in Gen 15. Hence he was regenerated

 

[Seabass]

Your logic is faulty. After we're saved, we are commanded to do literally hundreds of things, including baptism in water. In fact, I've heard that there are over 1000 commands given in the New Testament. For example wives are told to subject themselves to their husbands. So if a wife obeys that, according to your logic, she will be saved. We are commanded to abstain from sexual immorality. So if we obey that, according to your logic, we will be saved. We are commanded to avoid "bad company". If we obey that, according to your logic, we will be saved. But none of these will save us. They're good things to obey, but they won't save anyone. Yes, baptism should be the first command to obey after we're saved, even though that's not always possible. I was baptized approximately 2 weeks after I was saved. No one taught me to get it done sooner. In fact, a lady at the church that I attended the previous Sunday in downtown San Antonio called and asked if I wanted to get baptized. I had just read that Jesus was baptized. I thought that if Jesus did that, then I wanted to also. So I said yes. Had that lady not called, it may have been months before I realized that I should be baptized. Even if I had wanted to be baptized sooner, it wouldn't have happened. I was living alone in my Air Force barracks. I probably would have called the chaplain on base and asked him if I could be baptized. Assuming that the chaplain was even a believer (many were not), he would most likely have told me the next available date for baptisms to occur.

You said: -the fact water baptism is commanded makes it essential to salvation if for no other reason. Not obeying Christ is unrighteousness, it's disobedience...disobedience is sin and sin is the reason a person is lost.

No wonder you're confused. You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.

Think again.

you put the cart before the horse..one must obey FIRST then God saves. This is why there is no example in the NT gospel of God UNconditonally saving unbelieving impenitent sinners where they can then obey later.

Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" that obedience leads one to being righteous. No one can be righteous (right doing) by being unrighteous (wrong doing). Paul did NOT say obey because your already righteous.

The order is clearly stated on Rom 16:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1) they were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) rehn made free from sin (justification)

Clearly one must obey God before one can be justified.


You posted: (in blue)
You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.

I admit, in all the many, many years on all the forums I have participated on this has to be one of the most incredible statements I have read...and I have read a lot of incredible statements. The jailer was commanded to believe, evidently believing is not essential to salvation. Those in Acts 2 were commanded to repent, evidently repentance is not essential to salvation.


Amazing how "obedience" is made a dirty word by some to support a wrong theological personal bias.

Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey him, Heb 5:9
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:8
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35
Those Jews were lost because they would not obey God's righteousness Rom 10:1-3

 

[mailmandan]

you put the cart before the horse..one must obey FIRST then God saves. This is why there is no example in the NT gospel of God UNconditonally saving unbelieving impenitent sinners where they can then obey later.

Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" that obedience leads one to being righteous. No one can be righteous (right doing) by being unrighteous (wrong doing). Paul did NOT say obey because your already righteous.

The order is clearly stated on Rom 16:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1) they were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) rehn made free from sin (justification)

Clearly one must obey God before one can be justified.

I already thoroughly covered this with you in post #1,400 from the link below:

Post in thread '"Works Salvation"'

Jan 12, 2025

A NT faith that saves is a faith that includes obedience. The NT ties faith and obedience together so tightly faith is an OBEDIENT work.

NT faith that saves results in producing obedience/good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by obedience/good works which "follow." Faith is faith and obedience which "follows" is works. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which "follow" are the fruit. Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Unlike you, the apostle Paul clearly makes a...

• mailmandan

• 
• 

You posted: (in blue)
You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.

I admit, in all the many, many years on all the forums I have participated on this has to be one of the most incredible statements I have read...and I have read a lot of incredible statements. The jailer was commanded to believe, evidently believing is not essential to salvation. Those in Acts 2 were commanded to repent, evidently repentance is not essential to salvation.

Repentance and believing are essential to salvation. Repent (change your mind) -- new direction of that change of mind -- believing in Christ/faith in Christ for salvation. (Mark 1:15; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 10:43; 11:17,18; Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Whenever repentance is mentioned in scripture in connection with salvation without mentioning belief/faith, believing is implied or assumed. Whenever believing is mentioned in scripture in connection with salvation without mentioning repentance, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel but not yet be water baptized.

Amazing how "obedience" is made a dirty word by some to support a wrong theological personal bias.

Obedience is a dirty word when it culminates in salvation by works which is not obedience. You actually have the audacity to talk about supported a wrong theological personal bias? You wrote the book on that.

Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey him, Heb 5:9

In regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse in their effort to support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through their un-regenerate flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Not to be CONFUSED with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:8

That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers. Patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality is 'descriptive' of believers. Works-salvationists will typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35

In regard to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ. You must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:35) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:43). You are not rightly dividing the word of truth. The question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only or is now available to Gentiles also (those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right) which Peter learned in his vision in Acts 10.

Those Jews were lost because they would not obey God's righteousness Rom 10:1-3

The Jews were looking to establish their own righteousness/works righteousness. Sound familiar? Difference in style but same in substance. Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[dwight92070]

Philippians 3:9 "and may be found in Him , not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law (or baptism), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (not baptism).
Colossians 1:13-14 "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred to the kingdom of His Beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (not in baptism).
Colossians 1:21-22 "And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body (through baptism? - No) through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -"
Colossians 1:28-29 "We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom (and baptizing every man? No), so that we may present every man complete in Christ."
Colossians 2:6-7 "Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so (be baptized? No) walk in Him ... in your faith, ..."
Colossians 2:11-12 "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands (through baptism? No) in the removal of the body of flesh by (baptism? No) by the circumcision of Christ ... (through baptism? No) through faith ..."
Colossians 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions (through baptism? No), having ... cancelled out (the Law) ... and nailed it to the cross."
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 " ... how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God and to (be baptized? No) wait for His Son from heaven, ..."
1 Thessalonians 2:13 " ...that when you received the word of God ( you were baptized? No) ... you accepted it not as the word of men, but ... the word of God, which also performs its work in you who (are baptized? No) believe."
1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through (baptism? No) our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 " ... for God ... will ... deal out retribution to those who (are not baptized? No) do not know God."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 " ... God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through (baptism? No) sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."
2 Thessalonians 2:14 "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may (be baptized? No) gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by (being baptized? No) grace, ..."
1 Timothy 4:10 " ... we have fixed our hope on the Living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of (those who are baptized? No) believers."

(To be continued)

 

[dwight92070]

you put the cart before the horse..one must obey FIRST then God saves. This is why there is no example in the NT gospel of God UNconditonally saving unbelieving impenitent sinners where they can then obey later.

Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience UNTO righteousness" that obedience leads one to being righteous. No one can be righteous (right doing) by being unrighteous (wrong doing). Paul did NOT say obey because your already righteous.

The order is clearly stated on Rom 16:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1) they were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) rehn made free from sin (justification)

Clearly one must obey God before one can be justified.


You posted: (in blue)
You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.

I admit, in all the many, many years on all the forums I have participated on this has to be one of the most incredible statements I have read...and I have read a lot of incredible statements. The jailer was commanded to believe, evidently believing is not essential to salvation. Those in Acts 2 were commanded to repent, evidently repentance is not essential to salvation.


Amazing how "obedience" is made a dirty word by some to support a wrong theological personal bias.

Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey him, Heb 5:9
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:8
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35
Those Jews were lost because they would not obey God's righteousness Rom 10:1-3

I said, "You believe that just because something is commanded by the Lord, then that "something" is essential to salvation.
You (Seabass) responded: "I admit, in all the many, many years on all the forums I have participated on this has to be one of the most incredible statements I have read...and I have read a lot of incredible statements."
In might be essential to what Jesus wants done at a certain time, but that is not always essential to salvation. There are lots of things that He wants other than salvation.

In Matthew 9:27-31 two blind men were commanded by the Lord to tell "no one" about Jesus healing them. But they disobeyed Jesus and spread the news everywhere. Were they eternally lost because they disobeyed Jesus? Was telling no one essential to their salvation? Of course not. They should have obeyed Jesus, but would refraining from telling people have saved them? No, they were saved by their faith, not by refraining to tell people.

In John 21:10, Jesus commanded the disciples "Bring some of the fish which you have now caught?" Was bringing fish essential to their salvation? No, it was a command to be obeyed, but it had nothing to do with their salvation. Salvation comes through faith, not by bringing some fish.

In Mark 11:2 "Go into the village ... you will find a colt ... untie it and bring it here." Was obeying Jesus here essential to their salvation? Of course not, they were saved by faith, not by bringing a colt to Jesus.

In Matthew 5:34 Jesus said, "Make no oath at all ..." So is it essential to our salvation that we must never take an oath? No, not making an oath never saved anyone, we're saved by faith.

Matthew 5:42 Jesus said, "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you." Is this essential for our salvation? No, we're not saved by giving and lending, we're saved by our faith.

Even though Jesus commands certain works, or in the case of the two blind men (and making an oath), forbids certain works, obeying those commands are not what saves us. We're saved by His grace through our faith - i.e. NO works.

In Matthew 28:19 Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, ...", will not baptizing some immediately, or not baptizing some at all, cause them or their disciples to not be saved? No, they are already disciples, which means they are already saved. They should obey and baptize new disciples, and new disciples should obey and be baptized, but not doing so does not revoke their salvation. Baptism doesn't save, having faith in Jesus is what saves.