Veneration of Mary

[Frank Russell]

Have you read the Lazarus and the Rich Man Parable? There's more to the afterlife than seething vengeance. Your eschatology sounds JW-ish.

The bible is written to those who are living.

You asked a question, I was reminded of a relevant passage. Stating this is the whole of my belief based on a question formed from your own logical premise comes off as manipulative. Though, it probably was not intentional.

In anycase, the ancient church prayerfully voted the book of revelation into the Canon, so we have to accept it .. or we can not accept it. But it says what it says.

However, the point you skipped over from the Solomon saying was that people who die can no longer have anything to do with what happens under the sun. As it is written elsewhere, there is one life, then the judgment.

There would be no reason for saints to get involved in earthly matters once again after dying.

 

[Frank Russell]

It is written, there is one life then the judgment.

It is not written, there is one life, followed by praying for people on earth, then the judgment.

This is how this subject matter ties back to the Mary mythology.

Needing to have interaction with the dead was a big part of the ancient world, this idea just carried over as a cultural misconception.

There's one life, then the judgment. No one stuttered.

 

[Ezra]

i have see a lot of empty claim in forums.. but the garbled up claim .the dead can intercede for us or pray for us .is nothing more than FALSE DOCTRINE .

Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us” (Romans 8:34).

“Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through [Jesus], because he always lives to intercede for them”(Hebrews 7:25).


“Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Romans 8:26).

The Bible prohibits communicating with the dead.

“When the people [instead of trusting God] say to you, ‘Consult the mediums [who try to talk to the dead] . . .,’ should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” (Isaiah 8:19,


this is more false doctrine when you die you either go to heaven because you been born again or go to hell because you was never truly born again . you have been deceived. you best open your eyes and your heart listen to what the Holy Spirit says read the scripture

Praying for those who have died is a spiritual work of mercy

Catholic Christians always have believed in the importance of praying for those who have died. We call this a spiritual work of mercy. We also believe that the dead pray for us — that they intercede for us as advocates. This means, of course, that we believe there is a real relationship that...

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[mikepec]

i have see a lot of empty claim in forums.. but the garbled up claim .the dead can intercede for us or pray for us .is nothing more than FALSE DOCTRINE .

Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us” (Romans 8:34).

“Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through [Jesus], because he always lives to intercede for them”(Hebrews 7:25).


“Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Romans 8:26).

The Bible prohibits communicating with the dead.

“When the people [instead of trusting God] say to you, ‘Consult the mediums [who try to talk to the dead] . . .,’ should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?” (Isaiah 8:19,


this is more false doctrine when you die you either go to heaven because you been born again or go to hell because you was never truly born again . you have been deceived. you best open your eyes and your heart listen to what the Holy Spirit says read the scripture

Praying for those who have died is a spiritual work of mercy

Catholic Christians always have believed in the importance of praying for those who have died. We call this a spiritual work of mercy. We also believe that the dead pray for us — that they intercede for us as advocates. This means, of course, that we believe there is a real relationship that...

www.catholicnewsagency.com

In your opinion

Your entire post is a product of the false doctrine of sola scriptura, and "leaning on your own understanding "of scritpure instead of listening to those "SENT to preach" to you. Long before there was a new testament, the appointed succession by Jesus and those who decided your new testament were vociferous on the intercessory prayer. Your scriptures do not mean what you think they do.

Go back to the beginning.

Do you have a valid eucharist? That is a eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by a bishop in succession? That is what JOHN taught his disciples John 6 means, and Jesus taught him. Unless you are in catholic or orthodox you do not!
This isnt just about the eucharist, It proves that The succession was a vital component instituted as the means of handing down "paradosis, tradition" the true faith. Much as iraneus said a few years later. And again long before the new testament.


Do you talk to your mother? We know from revelations that Mary IS mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" Notice that is "keep" not "kept" , it is the present tense. For all time. As was the promise made to a davidic queen that the king (thats Jesus) would honour her requests. That is the real meaning of scripture. She was Gods most perfect creation. Do you call her blessed?

So listen to those sent to preach - to early church tradition. Not a concoction of arrogant reformers who could not even agree with each othe what scripture means. Yours is just one more disagreeing voice.

 

[mikepec]

And naturally all you know how to do is call me a LIAR.
.

In the inimitable words of Mr Myagi of Karate Kid " me no call nobody nothing"

However, I can only warn you against salesmen. " if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
Evangelicals are good salesmen! I grant you that.
I was both protestant then evangelical before study of history forced me back to Rome.

Your assumed guarantee of salvation regardless of what you do after that, sounds too good to be true!

Not least because our Lord clearly disagrees, and points at those who will not be saved in Sheep and Goats. He says it clearly in Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
So Obedience matters too. So Keeping your side of the bargain. Thats an ongoing whole of life challenge. Then hoping for Grace at the end.
Many will fall away.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I was both protestant then evangelical before study of history forced me back to Rome.

But the question is whether of not you were ever "BORN AGAIN" of the Holy Spirit. That's when everything changes.

Being "Protestant", or "Evangelical", in and of themselves really doesn't mean anything at all - they're just "Theologies". NOTHING in the Bible would "Force you back to Rome".

 

[mikepec]

But the question is whether of not you were ever "BORN AGAIN" of the Holy Spirit. That's when everything changes.

Being "Protestant", or "Evangelical", in and of themselves really doesn't mean anything at all - they're just "Theologies". NOTHING in the Bible would "Force you back to Rome".

You are the one claiming assurance of salvation. And claiming it doesn’t make it true.

As my post pointed out, neither Jesus nor scripture agrees.

Yet it is a common claim of evangelicals and fundamentalists.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You are the one claiming assurance of salvation. And claiming it doesn’t make it true.

As my post pointed out, neither Jesus nor scripture agrees.

Yet it is a common claim of evangelicals and fundamentalists.

SO - avoiding the question. John 3 talks about being "BORN AGAIN". when did that happen in your life??? I happened in mine in my bedroom on Roe Drive in S. Houston in the spring of 1963. DO you even know what I'm Talking about???

 

[mikepec]

SO - avoiding the question. John 3 talks about being "BORN AGAIN". when did that happen in your life??? I happened in mine in my bedroom on Roe Drive in S. Houston in the spring of 1963. DO you even know what I'm Talking about???

I know exactly what carrabianism preaches, leaning on his own understanding of scripture.

but I also know what Jesus‘s church - the true church, which is the Catholic Church - handed down from the beginning as the true faith by those sent to preach, long before there was a New Testament.

The early fathers are consistent , from Justin martyr, iraneus on , that born again from John 3 is baptism.
you will not find an early father - those in succession who were and “sent to preac“ disagree.
only reformationists far detached from the faith , with no authority to resolve disputes , ever disagreed.

So the ritual in your bedroom was an important affirmation and prayer. Something I did too when I knew no better.

But it was not what you think it was.

I still hold that Jesus is in all the groups and churches. “ Where they are gathered in my name”
But the true faith, historic faith from the beginning, is in the Catholic Church others call Roman.

 

[Ezra]

In your opinion

Your entire post is a product of the false doctrine of sola scriptura, and "leaning on your own understanding "of scritpure instead of listening to those "SENT to preach" to you. Long before there was a new testament, the appointed succession by Jesus and those who decided your new testament were vociferous on the intercessory prayer. Your scriptures do not mean what you think they do.

Go back to the beginning.

Do you have a valid eucharist? That is a eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by a bishop in succession? That is what JOHN taught his disciples John 6 means, and Jesus taught him. Unless you are in catholic or orthodox you do not!
This isnt just about the eucharist, It proves that The succession was a vital component instituted as the means of handing down "paradosis, tradition" the true faith. Much as iraneus said a few years later. And again long before the new testament.


Do you talk to your mother? We know from revelations that Mary IS mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" Notice that is "keep" not "kept" , it is the present tense. For all time. As was the promise made to a davidic queen that the king (thats Jesus) would honour her requests. That is the real meaning of scripture. She was Gods most perfect creation. Do you call her blessed?

So listen to those sent to preach - to early church tradition. Not a concoction of arrogant reformers who could not even agree with each othe what scripture means. Yours is just one more disagreeing voice.

your trying to use man made doctrine made up by the catholic church . your attacking solo scripture ---Scripture is the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth. you are programmed just like the Jehovah witness . you deny scripture

Do you talk to your mother

not any more she has passed and is in heaven

We know from revelations that Mary IS mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus"

can to show where that is in the bible and what is a davidic queen thats the king? is that a he/she god ? your to far out there you keep following the pope with no hope . the catholic church teaching is so full of holes it leaks . untill you can show scripture to back up your claim . i will no loner reply to any of your false hoods jargon

 

[Ezra]

I know exactly what carrabianism preaches, leaning on his own understanding of scripture.

you dont even know how to present scripture only insults

instead of listening to those "SENT to preach"

it sure aint you sent

Do you have a valid eucharist? That is a eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by a bishop in succession?

sigh i dont need a bishop or some man in the catholic church who calls himself priest .. i have a High priest ----Jesus ok no more games i am done you have no scripture

 

[Ezra]

The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

 

[mikepec]

The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings”—referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

As you have shown. Nowhere does the Bible claim solo or sola scriptura. 2 Tim does not claim it,

Indeed the Bible refutes it,
It is neither logically, historically or scripturally true.
Scripture says The “ foundation of truth “ is the church, not scripture.

Indeed without the church , you dont even know what scripture is.

Alas you are a programmed anti catholic, who cannot even mount a credible attack against iCatholicism.

Go study The early church and then we might have a rational conversation about Christianity, and what Jesus taught, and the succession he appointed to pass on the truth. Not your twisted version of it.

Till then stop hijacking the thread.

 

[Ezra]

The “ foundation of truth “ is the church, not scripture.

the church is the body of Christ not catholic or any other denom name. the scriptures is where we find our truth , am i anti catholic ? not i am am against your false answers . the Bible says search the scriptures not the Church the foundation the Church is built on is the Lord Jesus Christ not man not a church denom . i study my Bible not the early Church . take the blinders off your eyes

 

[Ezra]

solo scripture is a phrase people use solo means alone let me give you a couple bible verses

2 Timothy 3:16​

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God { GOD Breathed } , and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

John 5:39​

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

Romans 16:26​

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:”

Acts 17:11​

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”


please note it says scripture not the Church NO wonder your confused

 

[Ezra]

Scripture says The “ foundation of truth “ is the church, not scripture.

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. your twisting scripture like always. in essence your claim is the catholic church is the foundation of truth .......WRONG more ear tickling i think strong delusions has been sent to you

 

[synergy]

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. your twisting scripture like always. in essence your claim is the catholic church is the foundation of truth .......WRONG more ear tickling i think strong delusions has been sent to you

Listen, I'm not Catholic so I can speak without any Catholic bias. First of all, the word "ground" and "foundation" are talking about the same thing so there was no "twisting scripture" by @mikepec. This general hatred of Catholicism is embarrassing to me. Seriously. Catholics are not perfect and nobody else is because, after all, we're all just humans. Only the Word of God, the Son of God, is perfect.

 

[mikepec]

solo scripture is a phrase people use solo means alone let me give you a couple bible verses

2 Timothy 3:16​

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God { GOD Breathed } , and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

John 5:39​

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

Romans 16:26​

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:”

Acts 17:11​

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”


please note it says scripture not the Church NO wonder your confused

You forget, I was both Protestant and evangelical.
I saw through the lies of both.

My guides were Jesus and those he sent to preach, the early fathers. Not an arrogant revisionist a Millenium later,
The testimonies of hundreds if not thousands of professional Protestant theologians and ministers forced to return to Rome by studying the history of the church

Calvin and Luther were rebellious hotheads who didn’t like authority, who inspired an army of ezras.
Luther even tried to redefine what was scripture so arrogant was he.

And not a single verse you quoted says sola or solo scriptura or anything like,
And the verses you do quote referred to the Old Testament at the time they quoted.

But Scripture does identify truth outside itself. The power to bind and loose. So refuting sola scriptura.

And that’s the laughable thing about Protestants

Where Jesus himself refers back in scripture so you will understand - eg to the davidic kingdom, the keys , the steward, so the see of Peter. To the powers of a davidic queen. None of you accept scripture then. You don’t like the outcome!
You ALL make it up as you go along.


So go and Start a thread on “ Ezranism”
Whatever peculiar combination of doctrines you have. It has nothing to do with early church Christianity.
because all of you disagree on meaning, and doctrine . Proving your interpretation is not enough. The Bible warns against you using your own understbsing.
Listen to Jesus and those HE sent instead

Stop clogging a thread on Catholicism , the true faith and Mary,

Anyway, it’s pointless wasting time on someone who is lost in his own arrogant belied that only he knows what scripture means.
You don’t!!
So dont expect another reply,

 

[mikepec]

Seriously. Catholics are not perfect .

Thanks for that @synergy
The reality is none of us claim we are perfect, not even the pope.
Indeed the catholic church has more sinners than most, we have more people than most!
But what is done by catholics is not the same as done in the name of catholicism.
Many catholics are a very bad advert for the faith, indeed many do not know the faith very well. So yes they do go off the rails. It is the human condition.
It tends to be those who come in from outside - as I did - who understand the apologetics and what we are supposed to believe, because we had to study our way in!


I would love this thread to revert to the subject.
So I will go back to Luke 1:26 and the greeting of the angel.
"kaire kechairetomene!" - Hail full of grace (or using the tense meaning, completed in grace). The lord is with you!

I will start with the very first word. Kaire.
In the original language, this is not the greeting used by people in ordinary conversation.
This is the greeting used of royalty or of someone special!


Looking deeper.

We also know Jesus is heralded as a davidic king and does what he can to cement that by (for example ) riding on a donkey. We know from the OT that in the davidic kingdom "queen" is an honorary title given to the mother not spouse of the king. So Mary is royalty and why we call her "queen". She is Gods most perfect creation. Who else was completed in grace?

In the lords prayer we all ask for the grace to "lead us not in temptation", "deliver us from evil".
We see Mary is filled with grace. So if we think Gods grace is worth anything she was not led into temptation and she was delivered from evil. Why is anyone so surprised that God can do what He says!
So Mary was indeed saved, and needed a saviour, but not as a sinner because there are two ways to be saved from a pit.
One is to be pulled out of it, but the better way is not to fall into it as the lady "completed in grace"!

And yes she is appointed our mother too. We see that at the cross when Jesus said "behold your mother". But we also see it in revelations where in revelations 12 she is mother of "all who keep the commandments" and "hold to the testimony of Jesus"
Should you not talk to your mother?

I have to say as a catholic I find the way protestants demean Mary is offensive.
And I can say from Fatima, that God is offended about it too. He said so!!
It is fascinating that main reformers held her in far more esteem than the denominations that continued in their names!

 

[synergy]

Thanks for that @synergy
The reality is none of us claim we are perfect, not even the pope.
Indeed the catholic church has more sinners than most, we have more people than most!
But what is done by catholics is not the same as done in the name of catholicism.
Many catholics are a very bad advert for the faith, indeed many do not know the faith very well. So yes they do go off the rails. It is the human condition.
It tends to be those who come in from outside - as I did - who understand the apologetics and what we are supposed to believe, because we had to study our way in!


I would love this thread to revert to the subject.
So I will go back to Luke 1:26 and the greeting of the angel.
"kaire kechairetomene!" - Hail full of grace (or using the tense meaning, completed in grace). The lord is with you!

I will start with the very first word. Kaire.
In the original language, this is not the greeting used by people in ordinary conversation.
This is the greeting used of royalty or of someone special!


Looking deeper.

We also know Jesus is heralded as a davidic king and does what he can to cement that by (for example ) riding on a donkey. We know from the OT that in the davidic kingdom "queen" is an honorary title given to the mother not spouse of the king. So Mary is royalty and why we call her "queen". She is Gods most perfect creation. Who else was completed in grace?

In the lords prayer we all ask for the grace to "lead us not in temptation", "deliver us from evil".
We see Mary is filled with grace. So if we think Gods grace is worth anything she was not led into temptation and she was delivered from evil. Why is anyone so surprised that God can do what He says!
So Mary was indeed saved, and needed a saviour, but not as a sinner because there are two ways to be saved from a pit.
One is to be pulled out of it, but the better way is not to fall into it as the lady "completed in grace"!

And yes she is appointed our mother too. We see that at the cross when Jesus said "behold your mother". But we also see it in revelations where in revelations 12 she is mother of "all who keep the commandments" and "hold to the testimony of Jesus"
Should you not talk to your mother?

I have to say as a catholic I find the way protestants demean Mary is offensive.
And I can say from Fatima, that God is offended about it too. He said so!!
It is fascinating that main reformers held her in far more esteem than the denominations that continued in their names!

I generally agree except that I reserve judgment on the events of Fatima. Putting that aside, my interest is the word "veneration" and how we are to venerate Saints who allowed Christ to shine forth brilliantly in their lives, especially his Mother. Protestants venerate the Bible but can't seem to do the same for flesh and blood humans. Strange isn't it? They can venerate paper and ink but don't ask them to venerate flesh and blood. I think it might have to do with the historical onset of iconoclasm, Islam, and Calvinism which all took turns in degrading humans. Protestantism has still not been able to recover from those infections and those influences (influenza).