Do Catholics Pray to Mary?
- Thread starter Donald
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DavidTree
Active Member
This is GREAT stuff - as soon a is have time i will respond to each comment = Thank You
How is your day going?
synergy
Active Member
My day is going great. Thank you for asking. I hope your day is going great also.
Shalom.
synergy
Active Member
Saints are aware of what's happening on Earth (Rev 6:9-10) and the prayers were routed through them (intercessors) as they evidently handled them.
“They cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood...?’” (Rev 6:9–10)
The souls of martyrs are aware of what is happening on earth and are calling out to God—this shows the conscious activity and intercession of saints in heaven.
Prayer is heard by God immediately when it is in a person's heart.
Nothing in the text shows that anyone else is being prayed to but God alone.
The Lord is still looked to as the only proper reci[ient of prayer.
synergy
Active Member
Of course God is the ultimate recipient. Prayers didn't stop at the 24 Elders. Still prayers are being routed through the 24 Elders and they are offering the prayer of the saints up to God themselves. That is intercessory prayer.
The reason I pray to Mary is because Jesus has given us his Blessed Mother as our great spiritual mother, a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us.
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Rev.12:17
I pray to Mary like this
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Rev.12:17
I pray to Mary like this
- Hail Mary: A powerful prayer that meditates on the life of Jesus through the eyes of Mary.
- Morning Consecration to Mary: Consecrate yourself to Jesus through Mary's guidance.
- Hail Holy Queen (Salve Regina): A prayer invoking Mary's intercession.
- Regina Coeli (Caeli): A prayer for protection.
- Sub Tuum Praesidum: A prayer for Mary's patronal protection.
- The Magnificat (Canticle of Mary): A prayer praising God through Mary.
- The Memorare: A devotion to the Immaculata.
Others can pray for us and we can pray for others, but we are not to pray to others and others are not to pray to us.
DavidTree
Active Member
Being raised RCC i understand for i also would pray to Mary.
The woman mentioned in Rev ch12 is not Mary - it is Israel from whom the Savior was promised to come thru.
The Greatest Love you will ever experience is the Love of the Savior = the Lord Jesus Christ
His love comes to us when we believe the Gospel and have our sins washed away = this is just the Beginning.
Romans 15:13
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy
Spirit.
Without believing God at His word one can never experience this Love, Hope and the Precious Gift of the Holy Spirit.
Keen insight. Just a thought, Mary could represent Israel thru the blood line. King David and all ...DNA.. Her seed Jesus and all of His followers,
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Rev.12:17
Genesis 3:15
Her seed shall bruise thy head is a phrase from Genesis 3:15, which is one of the most important verses in Scripture. It refers to the enmity between the woman (Eve) and the serpent who deceived her in the Garden of Eden. It also prophesies the victory of the woman's seed (Christ) over the serpent (Satan), who will bruise his heel (the crucifixion) but he will bruise his head (the resurrection).
DavidTree
Active Member
You are 100% CORRECT that Mary was of the bloodline of King David.
Therefore, Mary's seed/womb fulfilled God's mandate of genealogical bloodline to JESUS.
Now concerning the connection of Mary and the 'woman' of Revelation chapter 12:
At first glance i would absolutely agree with you, without contest.
Without knowing the Holy Scriptures i would agree with you.
When the Lord Jesus Christ had mercy on me 40 years ago at the age of 23 i began reading the Holy Scriptures.
Shortly thereafter i was Baptized in the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of Truth = our Comforter and Divine Helper
This Precious Gift from the FATHER(John14:15-18 , Acts chapters 1 & 2) enabled my mind to SEE His Glory in the Scriptures.
Do you know the meaning of 'corroborating evidence'? ( i am sure you do and if not a simple internet search )
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DavidTree
Active Member
OK, i fixed my 'oops' and edited post #351 for us.
My mind goes much faster then my typing ability(or lack thereof-lol)
Please review again - Thank You
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No need to agree with me, I'm just thinking out loud.
I'm glad Jesus saved you when you were so young.
Yes, I watch crime shows all the time. 'Corroborating evidence' and forensic files.
I have a book called Cold -Case Christianity
Wallace, J. Warner. Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels
Time to walk the kids " my Dogs" Talk at you latter.
DavidTree
Active Member
GREAT
Revelation 12:1
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars
Here is the corroborating evidence of Scripture by which we can know who the woman of Rev ch12 is.
Genesis 37:3-11
Now Joseph had a dream........Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said,
“Look, I have dreamed another dream.
And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”
And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter in mind.
Donald
Active Member
Try reading up on Mariology. It refers to the historic teachings of the Christian church regarding the life and status of the Virgin Mary.
Mariology is the theological study of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Within the Roman Catholic Church, Mary is venerated over all other saints. Anglicans share some of the beliefs of Roman Catholic Mariology, but not all. The Eastern Orthodox Church calls Mary the “God-bearer,” emphasizing Mary’s status as the mother of God Incarnate, gives her the title “Ever Virgin,” and emphasizes her sublime holiness, her share in redemption, and her role as a mediator of grace.
Most Protestants endorse the Apostles’ Creed, which acknowledges the virgin birth of Christ, but they do not believe in most of the other tenets of Mariology. Protestants denounce the veneration of Mary as practiced by Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
The four dogmas of Roman Catholic Mariology are: 1) the title “Mother of God”; 2) the Immaculate Conception; 3) the Perpetual Virginity of Mary; and 4) the Assumption of Mary.
Mother of God: In AD 431, the Council of Ephesus countered the Nestorian heresy by declaring that Mary was truly the Mother of God: “Not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from Mary, but the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself, was born from Mary.” One problem with this wording is that it awakened the old Arian heresy that the Logos (Jesus) was a created being. In AD 451, at the Council of Chalcedon, Leo, Bishop of Rome, ratified the decision that Mary was theotokos (“God-bearer”) only as to the humanity of Jesus. The title had nothing to do with Jesus’ divinity as the eternal Word of God. The Chalcedonian definition added the words “as to the manhood” immediately after theotokos, which should have ended erroneous thinking. But the populace took this word theotokos as an uplifting of Mary’s status and started to venerate her. The term theotokos was not incorporated into the Nicene Creed of 321 or the Constantinopolitan Creed of 381. Neither is that expression used in the Anglican Articles or in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Immaculate Conception: This tenet of Mariology holds that Mary, at her conception, was sinless (immaculate), preserved from original sin. According to the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia of Theology, no statement of Mary’s being free from original sin is found in the West before AD 1000. It was not until 1854 that faith in Mary’s Immaculate Conception was taught as an official church dogma.
Perpetual Virginity: According to Roman Catholic Mariology, Mary was always a virgin before, during, and after giving birth to Jesus. The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia of Theology admits that the formula of “virginity before, in and after giving birth” did not come into use till after the 7th century.
Assumption: The Assumption of Mary teaches that Mary, when she died, was taken up (assumed) body and soul into heavenly glory. It was not until 1950 that Pope Pius XII defined the doctrine of “Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven.”
Mary’s role in salvation: Another element of Roman Catholic Mariology is the belief that, at the conception of Jesus, Mary entered into a spiritual union with Him. Pope John Paul II discussed Mary’s place in the plan of salvation in the encyclical Redemptoris Mater, emphasizing “the special presence of the Mother of God in the mystery of Christ and his Church. For this is a fundamental dimension emerging from the Mariology of the Council.” Pope Benedict XVI stated that “Christology and Mariology are inseparably interwoven.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “In [Mary’s] Fiat of faith, she received salvation for all.… Mary’s mediatorship is to be understood on the level of the solidarity of all mankind which is in need of redemption.… The function of Mary in salvation determines her relation to the Church.… Mary is mother of the Church under this more individualistic aspect, since she is effectively concerned for the salvation of each individual” (pages 898–901).
Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept these three doctrines: 1) Mary participates in redemption with Jesus Christ; 2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the intercession of Mary; and 3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son. This movement would, in practice, redefine the Trinity as a kind of Quartet. The idea that Mary is a co-redemptrix or mediatrix contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.” Jesus is the Mediator. There is no mediator between man and Jesus. Jesus Himself dwells in believers; thus, no other mediator is required (Colossians 1:27).
Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus or anyone else direct any praise, glory, or adoration toward Mary. Mary was present at the cross when Jesus died (John 19:25). Mary was also with the apostles on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14). However, Mary is never mentioned again after Acts 1. The apostles did not give Mary a prominent role. Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Nothing is said about Mary ascending to heaven or having an exalted role there. As the earthly mother of Jesus, Mary should be respected, but she is not worthy of worship or adoration. The Bible nowhere indicates that Mary can hear our prayers or that she can mediate for us with God. Mary herself sets the example for us in directing her worship, adoration, and praise to God alone: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of His servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is His name” (Luke 1:46–49).
Got Questions Ministries
DavidTree
Active Member
Not sure what stance you are taking here or maybe just posting info.
The young virgin named Mary did not remain a virgin.
After she gave birth to Jesus, she continued in obedience to God by bearing children with her husband Joseph.
"Perpetual virgin" never came from God, is not found in Scripture and is against Scripture concerning Mary & Joseph.
Donald
Active Member
More info.
Most Christians, including many Catholics, do not believe in the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Many point to the instances in the gospels referring to Jesus’ brothers and sisters, believing this to be directly contradictory to the dogmatic teaching.
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? (Mk. 6:3)
On its surface this passage from Mark’s Gospel certainly seems to refute the teaching. But from its earliest days, the Church has held that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Mary’s perpetual virginity was declared a dogma of our Catholic Faith at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD.
To substantiate that the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is indeed true requires analysis of several passages from both the New and Old Testaments as well as quotations from early Church Fathers.
The first of these biblical passages comes from Luke’s Gospel.
It’s important to note that in this passage the Angel Gabriel is silent on when she will conceive. How then does Mary’s response make any sense, knowing that she will soon be living with Joseph as his wife?
It would only make sense if Mary had taken a perpetual vow of virginity which some married women of that time took. The biblical basis for such a vow of virginity can be found in chapter 30 of the Book of Numbers.
This seems quite possible in light of Church tradition which holds that Mary at a very young age, quite possibly as young as three, was sent by her parents to be raised in the Temple. As such she would have been open to a life of virginity.
And yet there are several gospel passages which appear to substantiate the claim that Mary had other children after giving birth to Jesus. Here is another passage which purports to support such claims.
For example, the phrase “Bill said he never voted until he was twenty-one years old,” infers that Bill voted after he reached the age of twenty-one.
The original Greek texts of the gospels were written in Kione Greek, the common language of the eastern Mediterranean at that time. The Greek word used in this verse for “until” is heos, and the meaning of that word makes no such assertion about the period after its point of reference, but only the period before.
Here are two examples in Matthew’s Gospel to illustrate this point.
Here’s a second example in which Jesus is addressing His disciples.
Now if Mary had indeed taken a perpetual vow of virginity, and Joseph “had no relations with her until she bore a son,” it stands to reason that Joseph had accepted her vow of virginity. Afterall, Joseph as a righteous man would not have broken the law as referenced in the Book of Numbers:
But how do these factors explain away this passage from Mark’s Gospel?
In fact, the gospels strongly suggest that the so-called “brothers” of Jesus are in fact the sons of another woman named Mary. Most likely the wife of Joseph’s brother, whose name was Clopas. That would make this other Mary the sister-in-law of Mary, the mother of Jesus. The following passage of the crucifixion from Mark’s Gospel provides further evidence:
And then there’s this passage from John’s Gospel:
Further, in Chapter 15 of the Acts of the Apostles, James is referred to as the leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Church tradition has always held that this James was also an Apostle and a cousin of Jesus along with his brother Judas (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot).
This confirms three of the four “brothers”—James, Joses, and Judas—as cousins of Jesus and not His brothers!
The final piece of evidence to support that Jesus had no biological brothers or sisters is Jesus’ giving His mother to His beloved disciple. If Jesus did have brothers and sisters, then He would not have done this. Such an act would have shown great disrespect to both His mother and His siblings, by virtue of the norms and customs of Jewish society of that time.
Here is a quote on this point from St. Athanasius, who is widely credited with writing much of the Nicaean Creed which we recite at Mass each Sunday.
These poles were put through the rings on the sides of the ark, for purposes of transporting it. Only the priests were allowed to carry it. Once the poles were placed through the rings, they were never to be removed. Inside the ark were the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, some of the manna from heaven, and Aaron’s staff.
No one was permitted to touch the ark as it contained the very presence of God, the shekinah glory which made manifest God’s presence as a pillar of cloud above the ark by day and a pillar of fire above it by night. Here is one account from the First Book of Chronicles when someone unfortunately did just that:
As was pointed out at the beginning of this article, the Church from its very beginnings believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Here is a quote from the fourth century by St. Jerome who strongly believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.
In conclusion, this article highlights that much of the disbelief in Mary’s perpetual virginity can be attributed to the lack of understanding of the differences in meaning of the Kione Greek words for “until” (heos) and “brothers” and “sisters” (adelphoi) when translated into the English language.
In addition, there are a number of cultural differences at play that confound us—such as married women having taken vows of virginity as well as the shame a woman would bear being cared for by someone other than her own offspring, if such offspring existed.
Mary is a virgin just as her Son is a virgin! Let us cast off any doubts concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity and believe in this important dogmatic teaching of the Church. By doing so we honor her and give greater glory to our Lord!
I would like to recommend an excellent book authored by Brant Pitre, entitled Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary. It was an invaluable source of information for this article. Indeed, his reasoning and logic in defense of this dogmatic teaching was used extensively by me in writing this article. In my opinion, Brant Pitre is one of the finest and most influential Catholic apologist writers of our time.
Most Christians, including many Catholics, do not believe in the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Many point to the instances in the gospels referring to Jesus’ brothers and sisters, believing this to be directly contradictory to the dogmatic teaching.
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? (Mk. 6:3)
On its surface this passage from Mark’s Gospel certainly seems to refute the teaching. But from its earliest days, the Church has held that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Mary’s perpetual virginity was declared a dogma of our Catholic Faith at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD.
To substantiate that the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is indeed true requires analysis of several passages from both the New and Old Testaments as well as quotations from early Church Fathers.
The first of these biblical passages comes from Luke’s Gospel.
Doesn’t Mary’s response to the Angel Gabriel seem odd in light of her betrothal to Joseph? Mary’s response to the Angel Gabriel reveals that she has had no sexual relations with a man and strongly implies that there is no intention on her part to have such relations in the future. In the Jewish culture of that time, Mary and Joseph are by virtue of their betrothal, already married but not yet living together. This temporary living arrangement generally lasted between six to twelve months.
It’s important to note that in this passage the Angel Gabriel is silent on when she will conceive. How then does Mary’s response make any sense, knowing that she will soon be living with Joseph as his wife?
It would only make sense if Mary had taken a perpetual vow of virginity which some married women of that time took. The biblical basis for such a vow of virginity can be found in chapter 30 of the Book of Numbers.
Therefore, if Mary had taken a vow of virginity before her betrothal to Joseph, and informed Joseph of such a vow, and he did not object to it on the day she told him of it, then her vow of virginity would have remained valid and in effect.
This seems quite possible in light of Church tradition which holds that Mary at a very young age, quite possibly as young as three, was sent by her parents to be raised in the Temple. As such she would have been open to a life of virginity.
And yet there are several gospel passages which appear to substantiate the claim that Mary had other children after giving birth to Jesus. Here is another passage which purports to support such claims.
The operative word in this passage is “until.” In the lexicon of today’s English language, the meaning of the word “until” implies that what was true up to a specified point in time is no longer true after that point in time occurs.
For example, the phrase “Bill said he never voted until he was twenty-one years old,” infers that Bill voted after he reached the age of twenty-one.
The original Greek texts of the gospels were written in Kione Greek, the common language of the eastern Mediterranean at that time. The Greek word used in this verse for “until” is heos, and the meaning of that word makes no such assertion about the period after its point of reference, but only the period before.
Here are two examples in Matthew’s Gospel to illustrate this point.
Does this verse mean that Jesus will not be sitting next to His Father after his enemies are put under His feet? Of course not. The meaning of the word only refers to the period before His enemies are put under His feet!
Here’s a second example in which Jesus is addressing His disciples.
Does this mean that Jesus will not be with His disciples after the end of the age? Again, of course not! So, we must be mindful that our current understanding of the meaning of the word “until” was not how its meaning was understood by the people living in Israel in the first century!
Now if Mary had indeed taken a perpetual vow of virginity, and Joseph “had no relations with her until she bore a son,” it stands to reason that Joseph had accepted her vow of virginity. Afterall, Joseph as a righteous man would not have broken the law as referenced in the Book of Numbers:
If Mary had made a vow of virginity, which is strongly suggested in her dialogue with the Angel Gabriel, and Joseph did not object to that vow on the day he learned of it, then any sexual relations with Mary by Joseph would have resulted in his sin, which further supports the case for her perpetual virginity.
But how do these factors explain away this passage from Mark’s Gospel?
The key words in this passage are “brother” and “sisters.” The Greek word for brother and sisters in these texts is adelphoi which was used principally—but not exclusively—to depict brother and sister. It was at times used to depict half-brother, half-sister, or cousin.
In fact, the gospels strongly suggest that the so-called “brothers” of Jesus are in fact the sons of another woman named Mary. Most likely the wife of Joseph’s brother, whose name was Clopas. That would make this other Mary the sister-in-law of Mary, the mother of Jesus. The following passage of the crucifixion from Mark’s Gospel provides further evidence:
In this gospel passage, this other Mary is referred to as the mother of two sons whose names match the very names quoted in Mark 6:3 above. Additionally, this Mary is mentioned as having “followed him when he was in Galilee and ministered to him” which makes no sense if this passage was referring to His own mother.
And then there’s this passage from John’s Gospel:
In this passage, the other Mary is identified as Jesus’ mother’s sister. It’s highly unlikely that St. Anne, the mother of Mary, would have had two daughters both named Mary. It is far more likely that this reference to “sister” means sister-in-law. Her children would therefore be cousins of Jesus by marriage.
Further, in Chapter 15 of the Acts of the Apostles, James is referred to as the leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Church tradition has always held that this James was also an Apostle and a cousin of Jesus along with his brother Judas (not to be confused with Judas Iscariot).
This confirms three of the four “brothers”—James, Joses, and Judas—as cousins of Jesus and not His brothers!
The final piece of evidence to support that Jesus had no biological brothers or sisters is Jesus’ giving His mother to His beloved disciple. If Jesus did have brothers and sisters, then He would not have done this. Such an act would have shown great disrespect to both His mother and His siblings, by virtue of the norms and customs of Jewish society of that time.
Here is a quote on this point from St. Athanasius, who is widely credited with writing much of the Nicaean Creed which we recite at Mass each Sunday.
One final argument in support of the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary can be found in the Old Testament. And it relates to the Ark of the Covenant. For those of you not familiar with the Ark of the Covenant, it was a container that God instructed the Israelites to build, made of acacia wood and plated with pure gold. The ark had four rings cast of gold that were attached to it along with two poles made of acacia wood and also plated with gold.
These poles were put through the rings on the sides of the ark, for purposes of transporting it. Only the priests were allowed to carry it. Once the poles were placed through the rings, they were never to be removed. Inside the ark were the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, some of the manna from heaven, and Aaron’s staff.
No one was permitted to touch the ark as it contained the very presence of God, the shekinah glory which made manifest God’s presence as a pillar of cloud above the ark by day and a pillar of fire above it by night. Here is one account from the First Book of Chronicles when someone unfortunately did just that:
Now if Uzzah died by merely touching the ark with his hand, does it not stand to reason that Mary, who, as a pure and holy vessel in her own right, by carrying in her virginal womb the Son of God for nine months, would remain perpetually a virgin holy and undefiled throughout her life?
As was pointed out at the beginning of this article, the Church from its very beginnings believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Here is a quote from the fourth century by St. Jerome who strongly believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.
To say he was knowledgeable of Sacred Scripture is a gross understatement. St. Jerome was not just any early Christian but an important Church Father. As an extraordinary linguist, he was the person responsible for translating all of the Old and New Testament books into one common language, resulting in the Latin Vulgate Bible.
In conclusion, this article highlights that much of the disbelief in Mary’s perpetual virginity can be attributed to the lack of understanding of the differences in meaning of the Kione Greek words for “until” (heos) and “brothers” and “sisters” (adelphoi) when translated into the English language.
In addition, there are a number of cultural differences at play that confound us—such as married women having taken vows of virginity as well as the shame a woman would bear being cared for by someone other than her own offspring, if such offspring existed.
Mary is a virgin just as her Son is a virgin! Let us cast off any doubts concerning Mary’s perpetual virginity and believe in this important dogmatic teaching of the Church. By doing so we honor her and give greater glory to our Lord!
I would like to recommend an excellent book authored by Brant Pitre, entitled Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary. It was an invaluable source of information for this article. Indeed, his reasoning and logic in defense of this dogmatic teaching was used extensively by me in writing this article. In my opinion, Brant Pitre is one of the finest and most influential Catholic apologist writers of our time.
DavidTree
Active Member
Not one of the scriptures you posted declares Mary as a "perpetual virgin"
Since you cannot find a single "perpetual virgin" declaration from the Holy Scriptures it remains a false teaching.
Warning from the Apostle Peter - 2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Donald
Active Member
It a teaching that some can't understand. We know she bore other children, so in that since she is not a virgin. But...
The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin "before, during and after" the birth of Christ. How long after? Till she had sex with her husband Joseph? That would be my deduction. But...
WE think of her and the virgin birth of Jesus. That's why she is called the Virgin Mary.
