Ezra
Well-known member
what miracles would that be
Veneration of Mary
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
You seem to be reading a conclusion into Paul based on what he didn’t do and didn’t say
That’s eisegesis,
God has certainly helped defeat problem kingdoms at times when it suits him -read Joshua 11.
( we catholics do know some scripture - we have to listen to the lot over a several year cycle! , there is more scripture in the catholic mass than any Protestant or evangelical service i ever attended, )
But really - God can decide his messengers , and who should succeed or fail.
It is not for others to limit Him.
He also tells us how to recognise true from false messengers by their fruits.
That’s why I trust in the messages of Fatima .
Ezra
Well-known member
scripture yes along with pomp and circumstances they go through the motion have a form of Godliness but deny the power there of. for some odd reason you deny facts and present fiction . you have ignored the fact the pope the head of the catholic church/ the one that is called Holy Father . stated it was ok to bless same sex marriage
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Regarding the Fatima, this is a result of the timeline created by church history and the dispensations that followed based on the early church's actions post-apostle.
After the generation of eye witnesses including the apostles had passed away, the church did not have the perspective to "faith" their way through life, just a collection of sayings and teachings from various groups claiming to be a disciple of such and such apostle.
Because of this, a curse similar to the curse of the law in Deuteronomy was enacted related to the creeds.
Since the sequence of law observance was started that early on, the same sequence of Israel-Judah's history followed Church history in eras.
It could have gone in any other direction, but after Jesus (fulfillment of Moses), and the 12 apostles (fulfillment of the 12 patriarchs), and Paul (fulfillment of Joshua, though the form of it was very "Jonah") the curse was instituted so the era mirroring the judges began.
During the judge mirror era, the catch phrase from the scriptures "They did what was right in their own eyes" seems to fit quite well. As a result of the era, the orthodox faction became the "Benjamin who was small" later on.
The popes mirror the kings. During this era, an event where one group and another split up over "works" just like Jeroboam and Rehoboam, but God had another reasoning. The two groups remain split up over various doctrinal differences to this day.
During the divided kingdom era, popular theme was a worship of the Queen of Heaven. The people seemed very defensive about worshiping this queen of heaven, at least in the book of Jeremiah. Today's mirror of the queen of heaven is the manifestation of fatima. However, charismatic meetings when they reach their height report seeing some woman also.
The church is on a set course to be the revealer of the antithesis of Christ at it's end. This is due to the deuteronomy type curse applied to the creeds, and the spiritual effect it has had and will continue to have.
Not only is the fatima a result of occultic forms of worship, but the whole church continues to follow a path that leads to the fulfillment of prophecy ... Just .. not how they'd like to imagine.
As with any age, there is always a way to repent and go do something else, but as with any age, not enough people listen for any difference to be made.
Since it is written, you cannot be directed by the Spirit if you are directed by the law .. this is a hint, since a curse law of sorts was created with the creeds. This is the hint, for those who want to make positive change.
However, the fatima seems to be part of this destructive pattern O Judah mirror.
After the generation of eye witnesses including the apostles had passed away, the church did not have the perspective to "faith" their way through life, just a collection of sayings and teachings from various groups claiming to be a disciple of such and such apostle.
Because of this, a curse similar to the curse of the law in Deuteronomy was enacted related to the creeds.
Since the sequence of law observance was started that early on, the same sequence of Israel-Judah's history followed Church history in eras.
It could have gone in any other direction, but after Jesus (fulfillment of Moses), and the 12 apostles (fulfillment of the 12 patriarchs), and Paul (fulfillment of Joshua, though the form of it was very "Jonah") the curse was instituted so the era mirroring the judges began.
During the judge mirror era, the catch phrase from the scriptures "They did what was right in their own eyes" seems to fit quite well. As a result of the era, the orthodox faction became the "Benjamin who was small" later on.
The popes mirror the kings. During this era, an event where one group and another split up over "works" just like Jeroboam and Rehoboam, but God had another reasoning. The two groups remain split up over various doctrinal differences to this day.
During the divided kingdom era, popular theme was a worship of the Queen of Heaven. The people seemed very defensive about worshiping this queen of heaven, at least in the book of Jeremiah. Today's mirror of the queen of heaven is the manifestation of fatima. However, charismatic meetings when they reach their height report seeing some woman also.
The church is on a set course to be the revealer of the antithesis of Christ at it's end. This is due to the deuteronomy type curse applied to the creeds, and the spiritual effect it has had and will continue to have.
Not only is the fatima a result of occultic forms of worship, but the whole church continues to follow a path that leads to the fulfillment of prophecy ... Just .. not how they'd like to imagine.
As with any age, there is always a way to repent and go do something else, but as with any age, not enough people listen for any difference to be made.
Since it is written, you cannot be directed by the Spirit if you are directed by the law .. this is a hint, since a curse law of sorts was created with the creeds. This is the hint, for those who want to make positive change.
However, the fatima seems to be part of this destructive pattern O Judah mirror.
So what is the solution to all this mess? I say we return back to everything that the Apostles bequeathed to us such as their writings, worship services, beliefs, Eschatology, Pneumatology, Soteriology and especially Christology.
Ezra
Well-known member
the blind leading the Blind
back to the bible read the book of acts
Frank Russell
Well-known member
From what I understand, the solution is found in a multitude repenting of the current situation and finding that solution as a collective. As you may be aware, there is a vast difference between that an individual's expression and a collective's expressing looks like .. especially when unseen elements of that collective work together like a body.
Since it hasn't happened, I do not know, but I can share my observations and continue on an individual basis.
The issue we are dealing with is rooted in a curse (a heavy damnation oriented one at that) being applied to anyone who does not believe the creeds.
Even after a repentance is achieved, we still have to contend with the consequences of the previous actions such as enduring factions created outside the faith as a basis of the church's actions.
In general, the first step appears to be to abandon the creeds, and begin again from what the deposit of faith or bible says the foundations are. In general, since the canon was decided alongside the church councils responsible for the creeds, what "the bible" is may also become a contentious matter.
In general, any attempt to fix this in mid stride may result in destroying to create.
Which may be why I'm aware of it, but don't see any viable solution .. since a solution will come from a body of Christ working together to be such a solution. Since I haven't seen it done, it is unimaginable, so I leave it in the hands of the one who can do immeasurably more than we can imagine or think. For He is faithful to do what is necessary.
Last edited:
illinformed nonsense, born of wishful thinking.
You clearly know nothing about Fatima AT ALL
Or seemingly church history either.
Or why she is called queen of heaven which is biblical.
We have. It is called the catholic church.
Start with for example Eucharist.
Described by disciples of apostle John who taught them a “ Eucharist of the real body, valid only if presided by bishop in succession” . So the succession is vital As well in the early church,
So thats what we do in the Catholic Church.
Protestants and reformers don’t: they discarded the early church And succession.
We also know from early church that trusting the succession , and the teaching as traditon , mattered to them, as did supremacy of Rome.
Since the early Church was NOT sola scriptura nor could it be. The New Testament way in the future, decided by the church reformers hate. The church in Rome rejected the first proposed canon. So the canon did not choose itself.
Reformers replaced that with “ make it up as you go along with your own interpretation of scripture” ditching all authority.
The inevitable happened: . Luther’s students made up their own theology disagreeing even with him! So “ every milkmaid ” now has their own doctrine said luther. Too right, that is the inevitable product of letting them all make it up, as luther had, and they did.
The question nobody ever answers is if the falasy that is sola scriptura were ACTUALLY true, why do reformers all believe massively different things , polar opposites in much doctrine. Why are there arminians and calvinists? One of Calvin’s famous letters is a ding dong he had with his own local authority, who were also reformers who didn’t like him Or his theology!!
Even the reformers massively disagreed , and their eponymous churches no longer even believe what those reformers did!
They lost the anchor of succession ( tradition) and Jesus appointed authority,
Division is the fruit of the devil, brought in by reformer arrogance.
Go back to the early church is go back to the Catholic Church.
Last edited:
Ezra
Well-known member
its corrupt ive no doubt i kicked over your golden cow and no longer respond to me. the truth hurts and the sword cuts
BTW there is no Or why she is called queen of heaven which is biblical.
Going back to Apostolic sources means removing external add-on doctrines such as the immaculate conception of Virgin Mary. Are you prepared to do that?
Much more importantly, all of Augustine's added-on doctrines must be removed. This is a non-negotiable.
Merry Christmas to you too.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friends, If it is to be a Scriptural solution, then should we not consider where this
trouble began and then 'work together'? What Saith The Scripture?:
"This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are
Phygellus [ meaning: 'fugitive'? ] and Hermogenes [ meaning: 'apostate'? ]." (2 Timothy 1:15)
Since Paul is [ Chosen By God as ] the "apostle of the Gentiles," then should we not turn backto Paul, and "The Revelation Of The Mystery" God Gave him for the solution to today's
mess of a Severely Divided And Confused church, on this earth?
Romans Through Philemon: God's Grace / Love Letters [ Directly ] to us for: Consolation,
Comfort, Edification, Encouragement, Enlightenment, And spiritual Building Up Of All
The BLOOD-Washed "members ( saints! )" In The Body Of Christ, His Church, Seated
( and United!) In Heaven! ( Start here but remember: "All Scripture is Profitable
For learning! ) God's Solution!! Amen?
More mess solution questions here:
I have decided to follow Jesus?
Amen.
The truth is the truth for all time, whenever it is declared formally and whatever words used to describe it, which expression may not be used in scripture. Nothing is Added or take. Away. Like “ trinity”
Even luther believed it , so why don’t you? Who said…
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
Sadly “ truth” is a drifting concept post reformation - so Lutheranism has drifted a long way from what luther believed! Later even luther drifted a little.
but not in the Catholic Church.
Keeping it short :
The scriptural case includes the theology of the new eve, contrasting the old eve.
The most important theology there is.
God says in Genesis 3
“ I will put enmity between the woman and her offspring , and you ( the devil) and your offspring)”
Mary is the “ woman” of the new covenant, her offspring is Jesus
in obedience destroying the product of disobedience of the old eve.
It is The offspring of old eve are those cursed with original sin, not the new eve or her offspring,
So it comes down to whose opinion is right of doctrine.
The answer Jesus appointed those with the power to sTate it
So I have to repeat “ in your opinion” , but not the view of those “ sent to preach” given the power to discern true doctrine “ bind and loose”
Mary was sinner and the power of "binding and loosing" _Pentecostal style-is safely in the hands of Jesus.
Augustine didn't understand Greek so he struck out on his own version of Christianity. Here are just a few of his heresies or results of his heresies:
1. Original Guilt (The heresy that we all come into the world sinful because of Adam's sin)
2. Damnation of unbaptized infants and adults (product of heresy #1)
3. Immaculate Conception (not Augustine's dogma but still a product of heresy #1)
4. Absolute Predestination (Part of Augustine's Manichean Gnostic beliefs that led to birth of Calvinism and its heresies)
5. Man has no free will (Monergism - massive problem here)
Calvinists love Augustine because his teachings are perfectly in line with TULIP.
CC: @civic
In your opinion, you who were “ not sent” , not in the succession, not given no “power to bind and loose” and “ relying on your “ own understanding”
So at least state your personal opinion as what it is. A personal opinion!
Say “ I think that Augustine preached heresy because… “. dont cast it as a statement “ Augustine preached heresy “ when he said… “
And accept the fact that none of the reformers or any of their offshoots agree with each other so deducing doctrine using sola scriptura simply doesn’t work. Reformation theology is tens of thousands of differing and diverging personal opinions.
The devil is the author of division.
Whatever you think of Augustine , he was not in the succession of Peter, so did not speak ex cathedra , and was only a contributor to conciliar decisions . So his writings are worthy ( like popes) but not of themselves catechistic statements made on behalf of the church.
It’s true that some of what he said on free will and predestiny viewed in a certain light sound Calvinist. But he did not preach total depravity , so any association with Calvinism falls at the very First hurdle. The early church was certainly notcalvinist.
I pointed out that Luther believed in immaculate conception, and regardless of that the statements at Lourdes and Fatima settle it Whether or not you want to believe it.
Last edited:
Pentecostal “ bind and loose” - don’t make me laugh.
Pentecostals are so divided they cant Define Pentecostalism without argument Or schism, a feature of early Pentecostals!
It is an umbrella for varied doctrinal beliefs, with no coordinated catechism and some still believe in modalism which was a heresy outed by the true church in the first century, which crept back when all were empowered by sola scriptura to decide doctrine for themselves!
For sure all churches bring something valuable
. Many can even learn from Mormonism about the sense of Christian community.
For Pentecostals, the Charismatic Movement geberally has brought an energy into the church.
But to bind and loose is a charism of the succession appointed by Jesus and handed down and only for them
So claiming it and having it are two different things,
Johnny come latelies like pentecostalism cannot trace their succession back To the apostles.
And as for Mary sinning , it Is an insult to kechairotomene , perfected in grace and the new eve.
,it is false exegesis , Most of the reformers even disagree with you! Let alone the early and true church, but most of all - those given the power to bind and loose by Jesus disagree.
Ezra
Well-known member
she had to be a sinner saved by grace .. your just to blind to see
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Excellent, as [ Satan's method of ] denying God's Word is an insult to Him, eh?:
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10)
"there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Psalm 53:3c)
"For ALL Have SINNED, and come short of The Glory Of God" (Romans 3:23)
True words from her own mouth:"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47)
Why would the sinless need A Saviour?Amen.
We ALL Definitely need The Saviour Who Gives:
... ↓ ...... ↓ ...... ↓ ............. ↓
