Veneration of Mary

[Bob Carabbio]

Ezra has yet to give a meaningful answer as he said you would.

Since the concept of physically dead Christians having anything to do with "Interceding" for living Christians, is totally foreign to the Bible, there's nothing to discuss, except to say that it's all a worthless "pipe dream".

And in the case of the Roman Catholic "Blessed Virgin thing" it goes way past fantasy into outright BLASPHEMY.

JESUS is the one who LOVES US!!!!
JESUS is the one who endured perfectly and sinlessly 30 some-odd years of humanity with it's pains and temptations FOR US.
JESUS is the one who sacrificed his life for us on the cross as our perfect SIN OFFERING so that we could be cleansed from our SIN.
JESUS is the one who is our ADVOCATE before the father, and the one we confess our SIN to to be cleansed.

Where is the REAL Biblical Mary in ANY OF THAT???? Why is Jesus NOT ENOUGH for the Roman Catholic???

Jesus, when asked, told the boys to "PRAY TO FATHER, in his name". so what's wrong with simply: DOING WHAT JESUS SAID TO DO!!!!

 

[synergy]

Since the concept of physically dead Christians having anything to do with "Interceding" for living Christians, is totally foreign to the Bible, there's nothing to discuss, except to say that it's all a worthless "pipe dream".

The Book of Revelation is not "a worthless pipe dream". It talks alot about Saints in Heaven that are conscious of what's happening on Earth. No need to denigrate Revelation. It is part of the NT and it will remain so forever.

 

[Ezra]

All Saints' prayers (intercessory prayers included) are placed before the Throne of God (Rev 8:3). Now tell me how your view fits into that fact.

book chapter verse

 

[mikepec]

The Book of Revelation is not Roman Catholic fantasy. The RC Church only started to exist about 900 years after the Book of Revelation was written.

Roman is a name given by others, when they decided to separate from the Catholic church.
The Catholic church now called the roman church was started by Christ.

 

[mikepec]

1. Nothing in Revelation 8:3 teaches that those on earth addressed any of their prayers to the 28 (4 living creatures and the 24 elders) - cf. Revelation 5.

2. Nothing indicates they fully know the hearts from which these prayers sprang forth. Since they do not fully know the hearts of all then they are not the proper recipient of prayer.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made by any man...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.

3. That they ceremoniously present prayers to the Lord doesn't mean they are being spoken to by those on the earth, and then tasked with carrying these prayers to the Lord in order for Him to find out what these prayers are about. The Lord already knows this. To believe otherwise is to deny the omniscience of the Lord.

Scripture was not written as a manual of faith. So you are looking in the wrong place.

The faith was "handed down" in the early church by those "sent to teach" aka Tradition.
And long before there was a new testament, they were vociferous on intercession, including those who chose your scripture and creed!

 

[mikepec]

For the THIRD TIME it's Carabbianism!!!! if you're gonna attack it, at least SPELL IT CORRECTLY!!!!

At least you have a sense of humour, bravo!

What the formers ACTUALLY DID was restore the TRUE meanings of Scripture that Catholicism (Roman and otherwise) has invented "Alternatives" for.

In their opinion only, and that of course is the problem as it is easily disproven because they all then disagreed what the "true meaning" was, so producing relentless schisms on doctrine! Which I think is actually very sad.

have any ASSURANCE of their own salvation like a Born Again Christian has.

Which is another problem... you mean "like a born again christian CLAIM they have. "
The claim does not make it true.

It is by grace you are saved and as sheep and goats shows ( as one example of many) not all will be saved.
"obedience" matters . Indeed in the proper translation of John 3:36 , the opposite of believe is disobey.

 

[synergy]

Roman is a name given by others, when they decided to separate from the Catholic church.
The Catholic church now called the roman church was started by Christ.

The Early Christian Church had 5 main centers: Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch. There was no one single central location and each was autocephalous, meaning: self-headed or self-governing.

 

[Frank Russell]

What do you make of the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev 5:8), and that were offered by an angel upon the golden altar which was before the Throne of God (Rev 8:3) ?

Saints who are alive pray, and it gets filled up. (Faith is the substance, (Hebrews 11) and that substance is in the bowl) It's like that passage that says God saves our tears in a bottle.

Revelation also illustrates the souls of matryrs being "in an altar" only wondering when they'll be avenged.

Nothing about praying for others.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Revelation 6:9-10)

This is another case where the catholic church says one thing, but the scripture illustrates the opposite.

 

[synergy]

Saints who are alive pray, and it gets filled up. (Faith is the substance, (Hebrews 11) and that substance is in the bowl) It's like that passage that says God saves our tears in a bottle.

Revelation also illustrates the souls of matryrs being "in an altar" only wondering when they'll be avenged.

Nothing about praying for others.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Revelation 6:9-10)

This is another case where the catholic church says one thing, but the scripture illustrates the opposite.

Are you saying that the intercessory prayers are filtered out and disposed of before the bowls are presented before the Throne of God?

BTW, I am not Catholic, just a Christian believer in all that the Apostles have bequeathed to us.

 

[Frank Russell]

Are you saying that the intercessory prayers are filtered out and disposed of before the bowls are presented before the Throne of God?

BTW, I am not Catholic, just a Christian believer in all that the Apostles have bequeathed to us.

The passage illustrates an angel carrying a bowl.

Variable bowl is "prayer of the saints"

Since angels are not visible, and prayers are also not visible, and both are spiritual; One can surmise that this is speaking of a happening in the spiritual realm.

Since we are given the directive to "pray in the manner" may God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (because it is not) .. reading too much into the passages that speak of concrete spirituality .. a realm we do not reside in .. results in many errors.

In Hebrews, it is said that faith is the substance of things not seen.

In Revelation, a visual representation of prayers of faith is being carried to God by an angel.

The bowls filled with our prayers have a particular purpose. However, the book of revelation seems to be written to martyrs and the disciples of martyrs. So reading too much into the text tends to result in confusion .. regardless of who does it. .. especially in a generation removed from martyrdom.

 

[Fred]

Scripture was not written as a manual of faith.

Your excuse to continue in your blasphemous doctrines.

So you are looking in the wrong place.

The faith was "handed down" in the early church by those "sent to teach" aka Tradition.

The problem with that is your "faith" contradicts the true faith of the early church.

 

[mikepec]

Your excuse to continue in your blasphemous doctrines.









The problem with that is your "faith" contradicts the true faith of the early church.

The problem is that YOUR faith contradicts the true faith of the early church
Ours is the continuation of it.

Let us take for example the eucharist.
We know what Jesus taught John who wrote John 6 and what John taught his disciples it meant.
We can read in ignatius , writing only decades after Christ and a disciple of John ,that it is a eucharist of the real body (flesh says Justin Martyr) valid only if presided by bishop in succession and that was taught long before there was a new testament! It is also why the Romans thought christians were cannibals. It is that old.

Since you deny the succession youhave no eucharist.
The parody of many reformers concerning the eucharist is a BLASPHEMOUS doctrine that profanes it.
Indeed one of the central messages of fatima validated by the prophesy validated of a miracle was - the "indifferences, outrages and sacriliges" against our Lord in the tabernacle and eucharist with which "God is much offended"
You offend God. He said so.

Indeed the early church cannot be sola scriptura, the new testament was much later , a product of the authority of the true church.
Till then the faith was handed by tradition. Paradosis. Handing down.

Sola scriptura is neither logically,historically nor scripturally true. All you have is opinions on doctrine on which protestants all disagree because you all fail to read what scripture clearly states: That you should listen to those who are "SENT to preach" not a guy called "fred" on a forum doing what he is told not to do which is "lean on his own understanding" to make up doctrine as he goes along. In his image not Gods.

 

[Fred]

The problem is that YOUR faith contradicts the true faith of the early church
Ours is the continuation of it.

Not when it contradicts Scripture by rendering prayer to created beings.

 

[mikepec]

Not when it contradicts Scripture by rendering prayer to created beings.

The Catholic church was given the power to" bind and loose " that is give definitive judgement on doctrine. It was given the power to pass true doctrine as tradition.

The early fathers long before the new testament believed in intercessory prayer. So the question is why dont you?

That is asking others to pray for us - dont you?
Not praying to them as Gods. We do not.

God is God of the living not the dead. We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. All Heaven knows when a sinner repents and rejoices. The prayers of saints are there at the throne of God.

And Mary is a davidic queen, so is special. She IS (not was) mother of those who keep the commandments. Dont you?
I can tell you God is angry about how you treat His most perfect creation in Mary. He said so at Fatima.
The requests of a davidic queen are honoured by the king. We saw it at Cana but Jesus said "not yet" Not till his time had come.His time has come now. Dont you know any scripture?

But who cares what you think anyway?

We listen to those who are SENT to preach, those given the power to resolve disputes on doctrine with the power to "bind and loose" as scripture tells us to.

We do not listen to those who lean on their own understanding as protestants and you do (who then all disagree, so they have no idea what scripture means!) So sola scriptura is a total #fail. A man made tradition of the reformation that is easily disproven.


Now lets see who has the early church doctrine.
I have described the eucharist in the eyes of the early church from Disciples of John

Do you have a true eucharist, or a blasphemous profanity of it? Made in your image from your limited intellect, not Gods.

 

[Fred]

The Catholic church was given the power

No, they weren't.

 

[synergy]

The passage illustrates an angel carrying a bowl.

Variable bowl is "prayer of the saints"

Since angels are not visible, and prayers are also not visible, and both are spiritual; One can surmise that this is speaking of a happening in the spiritual realm.

Since we are given the directive to "pray in the manner" may God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (because it is not) .. reading too much into the passages that speak of concrete spirituality .. a realm we do not reside in .. results in many errors.

In Hebrews, it is said that faith is the substance of things not seen.

In Revelation, a visual representation of prayers of faith is being carried to God by an angel.

The bowls filled with our prayers have a particular purpose. However, the book of revelation seems to be written to martyrs and the disciples of martyrs. So reading too much into the text tends to result in confusion .. regardless of who does it. .. especially in a generation removed from martyrdom.

I'm trying to see how your reply answers my question. Are you saying that martyrs do not offer intercessory prayers?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

At least you have a sense of humour, bravo!

After a while you realize that all the warring about "Doctrine" is just funny.

In their opinion only, and that of course is the problem as it is easily disproven because they all then disagreed what the "true meaning" was, so producing relentless schisms on doctrine! Which I think is actually very sad.

Pretty much like the condition that "The one True Church" finds itself in with it's present Schismatic Pope thing. And of course the Catholic church has always been s shining example of "Unity"

Which is another problem... you mean "like a born again christian CLAIM they have. "

And naturally all you know how to do is call me a LIAR.

The claim does not make it true.

Apply that to your own religious system.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Book of Revelation is not "a worthless pipe dream". It talks alot about Saints in Heaven that are conscious of what's happening on Earth. No need to denigrate Revelation. It is part of the NT and it will remain so forever.

PSST! I wasn't "Denigrating the Book of revelation, silly. I was denigrating your phony interpretation of it to support yout "Saints fantasy".

 

[Frank Russell]

I'm trying to see how your reply answers my question. Are you saying that martyrs do not offer intercessory prayers?

Yes, that's what the bible illustrates. Their only prayer is for vengeance apparently.

Here is another scripture, you might recognize it.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Furthermore,

"In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf."

 

[synergy]

Yes, that's what the bible illustrates. Their only prayer is for vengeance apparently.

Here is another scripture, you might recognize it.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Furthermore,

"In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf."

Have you read the Lazarus and the Rich Man Parable? There's more to the afterlife than seething vengeance. Your eschatology sounds JW-ish.