Veneration of Mary

I generally agree except that I reserve judgment on the events of Fatima. Putting that aside, my interest is the word "veneration" and how we are to venerate Saints who allowed Christ to shine forth brilliantly in their lives, especially his Mother. Protestants venerate the Bible but can't seem to do the same for flesh and blood humans. Strange isn't it? They can venerate paper and ink but don't ask them to venerate flesh and blood. I think it might have to do with the historical onset of iconoclasm, Islam, and Calvinism which all took turns in degrading humans. Protestantism has still not been able to recover from those infections and those influences (influenza).

Spot on.

Out of curiousity what do you know about Fatima? I must confess to being somewhat of a specialist. I have literally dozens of books, (I read portuguese) and I live not far from there for some of the year.

I think too many focus on the physics of the miracle of the sun for validation of it or otherwise.
Yet the miracle is confirmed whether or not the event is explicable in physics.

But It is sufficient to confirm
1/ it was real not hallucination
(because it was witnessed from far away by those not expecting it)
2/ It was extraordinary, whether or not explicable in meteorology
(never seen before or since in portugal)
3/ it was physical
(the ground dried in minutes, yet in that part of portugal water settles for weeks )
4/ It was confirmed by many credible and professional witnesses including many who went to debunk it - such as the journalist of o seculo who coined the phrase "o sol baillou" the sun danced. So it was not a conspiracy of wishful thinkers.

In conclusion.
Provided it was real and physical It is sufficient then to note it was prophesied months before to the day and the hour,
the miracle is a prophecy fulfilled because science can have no explanation for prophecy.

The messages of the seers were chilling... It is fascinating children with no education warned of the threat of russia, when soviet was not even a thing at the time. So there are many inexplicable aspects. The revolution was not till later in the october!

There were also lesser miracles. The miracle of the doves.
The prophecy of the "unknown light" heralding WWII with accurate timing.
 
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Spot on.

Out of curiousity what do you know about Fatima? I must confess to being somewhat of a specialist. I have literally dozens of books, (I read portuguese) and I live not far from there for some of the year.

I think too many focus on the physics of the miracle of the sun for validation of it or otherwise.
Yet the miracle is confirmed whether or not the event is explicable in physics.

But It is sufficient to confirm
1/ it was real not hallucination
(because it was witnessed from far away by those not expecting it)
2/ It was extraordinary, whether or not explicable in meteorology
(never seen before or since in portugal)
3/ it was physical
(the ground dried in minutes, yet in that part of portugal water settles for weeks )
4/ It was confirmed by many credible and professional witnesses including many who went to debunk it - such as the journalist of o seculo who coined the phrase "o sol baillou" the sun danced. So it was not a conspiracy of wishful thinkers.

In conclusion.
Provided it was real and physical It is sufficient then to note it was prophesied months before to the day and the hour,
the miracle is a prophecy fulfilled because science can have no explanation for prophecy.

The messages of the seers were chilling... It is fascinating children with no education warned of the threat of russia, when soviet was not even a thing at the time. So there are many inexplicable aspects. The revolution was not till later in the october!

There were also lesser miracles. The miracle of the doves.
The prophecy of the "unknown light" heralding WWII with accurate timing.
There are many Visions/Apparitions recorded throughout History. One that immediately comes to mind is Joseph Smith with his series of visions and Muhammad and his visions of Archangel Gabriel. How does one make sense of them all? Well, let’s look at how the Virgin handled her vision of Archangel Gabriel. She was startled, hesitant, afraid, and most important of all, she used her critical thinking to get to the core of what was it all about. Once everything made both Divine and Practical sense, she immediately believed but not before. I’m not as familiar with the Fatima events as you are but what was the point of the Fatima Apparition? Why was it children that are targeted and not Priests or Bishops? Why in the forest and not in the Church altar, the holiest place on Earth. Those are the questions that immediately come to mind. As I learn more about the Fatima events, I'm sure I'll present more questions.
 
There are many Visions/Apparitions recorded throughout History.
And Joe Smith's "Moroni", and the Marian Apparitions have one thing in Common. They're as PHONY AS A $3 DOLLAR BILL

SATAN is not without power.
He knows what to say to whatever victim will ser his purpose best.

The Roman Catholic Religious system, since it rejects the Bible in favor of its "Tradition is ripe for the picking for deception, Joe Smith was a libidinous con man who fell for the ultimate SCAM, and is leading THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE into death.
 
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And Joe Smith's "Moroni", and the Marian Apparitions have one thing in Common. They're as PHONY AS A $3 DOLLAR BILL

SATAN is not without power.
He knows what to say to whatever victim will ser his purpose best.

The Roman Catholic Religious system, since it rejects the Bible in favor of its "Tradition is ripe for the picking for deception, Joe Smith was a libidinous con man who fell for the ultimate SCAM, and is leading THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE into death.
In the case of the Virgin, she did not have an NT to consult when the Archangel visited her. A broad-stroke knee-jerk reaction like yours would have been mindless.
 
In the case of the Virgin, she did not have an NT to consult when the Archangel visited her. A broad-stroke knee-jerk reaction like yours would have been mindless.
Mary (the REAL ONE) didn't need and other witness - she'd never been with a MAN, and she was having a Baby.And since the Mormon, and Roman Catholic apparitions don't go along with the BIBLE WE HAVE, then they're EASY to "write off" as bening false.
 
There are many Visions/Apparitions recorded throughout History. One that immediately comes to mind is Joseph Smith with his series of visions and Muhammad and his visions of Archangel Gabriel. How does one make sense of them all? Well, let’s look at how the Virgin handled her vision of Archangel Gabriel. She was startled, hesitant, afraid, and most important of all, she used her critical thinking to get to the core of what was it all about. Once everything made both Divine and Practical sense, she immediately believed but not before. I’m not as familiar with the Fatima events as you are but what was the point of the Fatima Apparition? Why was it children that are targeted and not Priests or Bishops? Why in the forest and not in the Church altar, the holiest place on Earth. Those are the questions that immediately come to mind. As I learn more about the Fatima events, I'm sure I'll present more questions.
Joseph smiths visions were not corroborated by a prophecy fulfilled of a miracle.
So that is a straw man comparison.

Fatima had several purposes .

1/ to rescue Portugal itself from a communist administration ( the first in Europe) expressly intent on wiping out religion in a generation. Fatima succeeded. Portugal has since remained one of the most Christian, and least islamic places in Europe.

2/ otherwise to rescue the world from communism - the requested consecration which didn’t happen till JPII heralded the collapse of the Soviet Union.)

3/ The messages were critical to it and the purpose of it.
a God is very offended - by the “ indifferences , outrages and sacrileges” against our Lord in the tabernacle and Eucharist.
A clear Statement - it really is Him.

b God is offended at the attacks on the immaculate heart of Mary.

c That purgatory and hell are real.

d That failure to listen would result in a worse war - WWII heralded by an unnatural light that actually happened in 1938 just before hitler annexed Austria

e And In longer term “ an era of peace” , which has now run out, arguably right on cue.

Which all sounds like a “ partisan speech for the Catholic Church”
But because of the miracle and prophecy you cannot discount it.

They happened to prove the message is true.
 
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op: veneration of Mary?
visions today? Not hardly, the Grace By faith Redeemed In Christ are to:

"...walk By faith, not by sight..." (1Co 5:7)​
+
"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and​
carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men,​
and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"​
(Ephesians 4:14)​
+
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself​
and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think​
above That Which Is Written, that no one of you be puffed up for one​
against another." 1Co 4:6)​
Amen.
 
Joseph smiths visions were not corroborated by a prophecy fulfilled of a miracle.
So that is a straw man comparison.

Fatima had several purposes .

1/ to rescue Portugal itself from a communist administration ( the first in Europe) expressly intent on wiping out religion in a generation. Fatima succeeded. Portugal has since remained one of the most Christian, and least islamic places in Europe.
Political agenda transmitted to children? Why not transmit the message to him who should be the wisest and most astute of all, the Pope?
2/ otherwise to rescue the world from communism - the requested consecration which didn’t happen till JPII heralded the collapse of the Soviet Union.)
Again, political agenda transmitted to children?
3/ The messages were critical to it and the purpose of it.
a God is very offended - by the “ indifferences , outrages and sacrileges” against our Lord in the tabernacle and Eucharist.
A clear Statement - it really is Him.

b God is offended at the attacks on the immaculate heart of Mary.
Did Adam's sin not affect her in any way?
c That purgatory and hell are real.
Does Hades (Gr: αδου in the GNT) have a place in Catholic beliefs?
d That failure to listen would result in a worse war - WWII heralded by an unnatural light that actually happened in 1938 just before hitler annexed Austria
Where was it documented that "an unnatural light ... actually happened in 1938"? How does one prove that a light is "unnatural"?
e And In longer term “ an era of peace” , which has now run out, arguably right on cue.
In a Eurocentric view that may be true but there are always atrocities happening in the world at any point in time. There is never "an era of peace" if you take the whole world into consideration. Sounds like the Apparition was Politically Eurocentric.
Which all sounds like a “ partisan speech for the Catholic Church”
But because of the miracle and prophecy you cannot discount it.

They happened to prove the message is true.
The prophesy that World War I would end at a certain date proved false. Do you know what they did to false prophets in the OT?
 
You forget, I was both Protestant and evangelical.
I saw through the lies of both.
so you made your own up ?

Galatians 1:8-9​

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


your bringing in another Gospel
I would love this thread to revert to the subject.
So I will go back to Luke 1:26 and the greeting of the angel.
"kaire kechairetomene!" - Hail full of grace (or using the tense meaning, completed in grace). The lord is with you!
it cant due to your false doctrine ! every scripture i have given you.. has either been A denied by you. or B twisted by you you have not provided one scripture that say pray to mary . you have given me nothing but catholic fables . your blinded by the god of this world here is where you stand

2 Timothy 4:3​


“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”
 
amazing how you want to glorify a structure that the head says you can bless same sex marriage . which the Bible CLEARLY states its a abomination. reda Romans chapter 1 do a hail mary over that
 
Political agenda transmitted to children? Why not transmit the message to him who should be the wisest and most astute of all, the Pope?

Again, political agenda transmitted to children?

Did Adam's sin not affect her in any way?

Does Hades (Gr: αδου in the GNT) have a place in Catholic beliefs?

Where was it documented that "an unnatural light ... actually happened in 1938"? How does one prove that a light is "unnatural"?

In a Eurocentric view that may be true but there are always atrocities happening in the world at any point in time. There is never "an era of peace" if you take the whole world into consideration. Sounds like the Apparition was Politically Eurocentric.

The prophesy that World War I would end at a certain date proved false. Do you know what they did to false prophets in the OT?

I note I ommitted mention of the stated purpose of the apparitions: which I presume you know.
So "that all should see and believe". And however you contest the messages the miracle of prophecy is beyond doubt.
So the question is what the messages mean, not whether they were given

Answering the various points.

Why children? Who knows the mind of God? Would you believe it more if the pope said it (certainly NOT). Jesus uses strange tools.
Perhaps scripture - Matthew 11:25 has the answer. Jesus thanked the father that these things were "revealed to little children , hidden them from wise men!". Were they chosen it because they were illiterate, did not attend school, and knew nothing of the world, so that it is clear the source of their information was not learned or their own opinion? Were they chosen because they came from religious families? Lucia meditated on many of these questions and had no definitive answer.

Unnatural means "contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal". It was certainly that.
The so called aurora of Jan 25-6 1938 was seen across the entire northern hemisphere and reported in newspapers across several continents. It was red. And it was so strong that fire engines were sent out on several continents too!. That is abnormal, and unnatural since even if it was an aurora nothing had been so extensive before or since it went to latitudes unheard of for an aurora. You will not find another similar event.
Although Sr Lucia says it was not a aurora and others note it was more reminiscent of the red glow of nuclear fall out. Which is still an ionisation but of a different kind. That is the problem with science. If all it knows is apple or orange, it can only classify everything as one or the other. But even if it was an aurora. It was completely unnatural in extent and scale.
And We know as comparison of holy light, that it is not so simple. The light of the resurrection passes between candles of the holy sepulchre resembles a cold plasma in physics, not a candle light. Nobody knows how that is possible. So not all is "natural".
In 1938 who had the equipment to go any deeper?
.
What is CERTAINLY true is hitler met Kurt von Schuschnigg met only days later on feb 12, when hitler had already decided to take Austria by force. Negotiations broke down and so Hitler annexed it in March. That was the definining event of German aggression, which heralded the start of WWII. No doubt hitler decided it before in January before the sham negotiations. So the timeline fits perfectly. As did lucia naming the pope under whose rule it would happen. Pius XI died not long after.

As for the era of peace I agree it is relatively subjective, however the greatest threat of soviet vs USA nuclear war and the threat of communist expansion did subside. Now Putin is a madman, nuclear war is possible again. It was 100 years from Sister Margaret Marys warnings to the french rulers , which were not heeded and then the revolution happened. It is now 100 years from fatima.

You say a date was promised for end of WWI? I dont.
Day has many lengths in scripture. Daniels "days" were many years as indeed were the days of creation. "today " when Jesus said "today you will be in paradise with me" he did not ascend back to heaven for several earth days later. If our lady had said "today"
it does not necessarily imply an earthly day. Only when she uses an exact date and time "oct 13" can you be certain. She delivered on that.

What I can tell you is - like most on the web - you minunderstand the portuguese. Do you care? I am a portuguese speaker.
The word to end is "acabar" I can tell you straught from the original portuguese transcript the interrogator asked about the war finishing using the perfect tense. "a guerra acabei" The perfect describes is a single discrete and complete past event. But Lucia repeatedly replied that our Lady had actually said "a guerra acabava" which is an imperfect tense. The imperfect is used of a continous starting in the past.

Whilst portuguese tenses are not easily translatable into other languages because they have connotations that english does not including conditionaity and uncertainty.. A better translation was the "war was ending" in reflection of the continuous imperfect.

By way of example If I said "he played foot ball in the park using" the word "jogei" I mean he played one specific game in the pasrt. If I say he played football in the park "jogava" it means an extended period starting in the past. It is used to describe extended events. In english we just say "he played" and context must fill in the duration. It can include the present too. "queria" is an imperfeit which is the polite way to ask "i would like". Conditionality with no hint of the past in that!

So who knows what exactly was meant? Lucia did not ask. But You cannot discredit the miracle with that. The message is clearly from God. Since the "fruits" of fatima were large number of conversions back from atheism. As well as miraculous cures. Scripture tells us "A bad tree cannot bear good fruit" That is the criterion the church uses. At the time the church was as hostile to Lucia as the authorities were. Only MUCH later did the church get on board.

Like most pathetic attempts to discredit religious phenonema, the question of what was meant by the war ending is a pathetic attempt to discredit religious phenomena. All wars take time to finish. Some Japanese failed to surrended till decades after VJ day! The authorities of portugal were determined to discredit fatima regardless. Even more disgraceful was the attempt in films and books to portray Lucias father as a drunkard. He was not. He was a religious man. The family were exemplary christians in faith and charity. Even film directors and authors cannot be bothered with the truth, let alone the sceptic atheists determined to "destroy religion in a generation"
 
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I note I ommitted mention of the stated purpose of the apparitions: which I presume you know.
So "that all should see and believe". And however you contest the messages the miracle of prophecy is beyond doubt.
So the question is what the messages mean, not whether they were given
First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Some form of phenomenon did occur. There are too many manifestations of the spirit world like this one throughout history that you can't just dismiss it as just a psychological or psychosomatic phenomenon. By critically analyzing its message, I hope to peel away its outward layers and arrive at the true source of that phenomenon. I'll take my best shot at it.
Answering the various points.

Why children? Who knows the mind of God? Would you believe it more if the pope said it (certainly NOT). Jesus uses strange tools.
Perhaps scripture - Matthew 11:25 has the answer. Jesus thanked the father that these things were "revealed to little children , hidden them from wise men!". Were they chosen it because they were illiterate, did not attend school, and knew nothing of the world, so that it is clear the source of their information was not learned or their own opinion? Were they chosen because they came from religious families? Lucia meditated on many of these questions and had no definitive answer.
The "who knows the mind of God" excuse is everyone's last ditch go-to card for excuses. Sorry, critical thinking demands a stronger reason. Since when did God ever choose children as Witnesses and Prophets to get his message across? When did any of his Prophets ever target children? When did Jesus ever resort to children to get his message across to people? Can you think of even one communication from God to man that was done indirectly through children? I can't, especially Political Agenda messages. God is a very direct God.

Methinks, there's a deeper agenda here. What better way to gain a beachhead position than to target our most vulnerable members? That's military strategy. So now we have a Political message being communicated through military strategy means.
Unnatural means "contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal". It was certainly that.
The so called aurora of Jan 25-6 1938 was seen across the entire northern hemisphere and reported in newspapers across several continents. It was red. And it was so strong that fire engines were sent out on several continents too!. That is abnormal, and unnatural since even if it was an aurora nothing had been so extensive before or since it went to latitudes unheard of for an aurora. You will not find another similar event.
Although Sr Lucia says it was not a aurora and others note it was more reminiscent of the red glow of nuclear fall out. Which is still an ionisation but of a different kind. That is the problem with science. If all it knows is apple or orange, it can only classify everything as one or the other. But even if it was an aurora. It was completely unnatural in extent and scale.
And We know as comparison of holy light, that it is not so simple. The light of the resurrection passes between candles of the holy sepulchre resembles a cold plasma in physics, not a candle light. Nobody knows how that is possible. So not all is "natural".
In 1938 who had the equipment to go any deeper?
I don't contest the physical side of that phenomenon.
What is CERTAINLY true is hitler met Kurt von Schuschnigg met only days later on feb 12, when hitler had already decided to take Austria by force. Negotiations broke down and so Hitler annexed it in March. That was the definining event of German aggression, which heralded the start of WWII. No doubt hitler decided it before in January before the sham negotiations. So the timeline fits perfectly. As did lucia naming the pope under whose rule it would happen. Pius XI died not long after.
Critical thinking necessitates that we take in evidence that Hitler had strong connections to the occult. If that was the case then it is not surprising that future events could be predicted by demonic forces with strong certainty.
As for the era of peace I agree it is relatively subjective, however the greatest threat of soviet vs USA nuclear war and the threat of communist expansion did subside. Now Putin is a madman, nuclear war is possible again. It was 100 years from Sister Margaret Marys warnings to the french rulers , which were not heeded and then the revolution happened. It is now 100 years from fatima.
What I'm pointing out is that the message is very Eurocentric. That does not seem to align 100% with our universal God.
You say a date was promised for end of WWI? I dont.
Day has many lengths in scripture. Daniels "days" were many years as indeed were the days of creation. "today " when Jesus said "today you will be in paradise with me" he did not ascend back to heaven for several earth days later. If our lady had said "today"
it does not necessarily imply an earthly day. Only when she uses an exact date and time "oct 13" can you be certain. She delivered on that.

What I can tell you is - like most on the web - you minunderstand the portuguese. Do you care? I am a portuguese speaker.
The word to end is "acabar" I can tell you straught from the original portuguese transcript the interrogator asked about the war finishing using the perfect tense. "a guerra acabei" The perfect describes is a single discrete and complete past event. But Lucia repeatedly replied that our Lady had actually said "a guerra acabava" which is an imperfect tense. The imperfect is used of a continous starting in the past.

Whilst portuguese tenses are not easily translatable into other languages because they have connotations that english does not including conditionaity and uncertainty.. A better translation was the "war was ending" in reflection of the continuous imperfect.

By way of example If I said "he played foot ball in the park using" the word "jogei" I mean he played one specific game in the pasrt. If I say he played football in the park "jogava" it means an extended period starting in the past. It is used to describe extended events. In english we just say "he played" and context must fill in the duration. It can include the present too. "queria" is an imperfeit which is the polite way to ask "i would like". Conditionality with no hint of the past in that!

So who knows what exactly was meant? Lucia did not ask. But You cannot discredit the miracle with that. The message is clearly from God. Since the "fruits" of fatima were large number of conversions back from atheism. As well as miraculous cures. Scripture tells us "A bad tree cannot bear good fruit" That is the criterion the church uses. At the time the church was as hostile to Lucia as the authorities were. Only MUCH later did the church get on board.

Like most pathetic attempts to discredit religious phenonema, the question of what was meant by the war ending is a pathetic attempt to discredit religious phenomena. All wars take time to finish. Some Japanese failed to surrended till decades after VJ day! The authorities of portugal were determined to discredit fatima regardless. Even more disgraceful was the attempt in films and books to portray Lucias father as a drunkard. He was not. He was a religious man. The family were exemplary christians in faith and charity. Even film directors and authors cannot be bothered with the truth, let alone the sceptic atheists determined to "destroy religion in a generation"
In summary, what we have here is a political message being communicated through military strategic means to unsuspecting children - a strategy that is unique to Fatima - by a God who is cognizant with the main driver of WWII Hitler.

I wish I had a better report to give you but that's what my analysis came up with. You've researched the events much more thoroughly so tell me where my summary does not stand up to facts.

If you have any time, I would be interested to know if Hades has any place in Catholic beliefs.
 
The metal beast (car) of the eschatological texts is an allegory for industrialization.

The religious movements most involved in the development and acceptance of this industrialization are Catholicism and the post reformation groups.

The role of the apparition Mary in this is much like many icons (such as the statue of liberty) in history leading to a female driven economy.

Once the full image is actualized, the driving force behind it (Catholicism) will be abandoned. Just like protestants were abandoned and are no longer required for developing the invisible image that society is based on.

Once there is an invisible image (to regular eyes) in the paranormal/occult realm, it doesn't matter how much abuse the physical society endures, it just keeps rebuilding itself according to the established image.

The veneration of Mary is one thing, but participating in the occult on a societal level and calling it the veneration of Mary .. not a good thing.
 
First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Some form of phenomenon did occur. There are too many manifestations of the spirit world like this one throughout history that you can't just dismiss it as just a psychological or psychosomatic phenomenon. By critically analyzing its message, I hope to peel away its outward layers and arrive at the true source of that phenomenon. I'll take my best shot at it.

The "who knows the mind of God" excuse is everyone's last ditch go-to card for excuses. Sorry, critical thinking demands a stronger reason. Since when did God ever choose children as Witnesses and Prophets to get his message across? When did any of his Prophets ever target children? When did Jesus ever resort to children to get his message across to people? Can you think of even one communication from God to man that was done indirectly through children? I can't, especially Political Agenda messages. God is a very direct God.

Methinks, there's a deeper agenda here. What better way to gain a beachhead position than to target our most vulnerable members? That's military strategy. So now we have a Political message being communicated through military strategy means.

I don't contest the physical side of that phenomenon.

Critical thinking necessitates that we take in evidence that Hitler had strong connections to the occult. If that was the case then it is not surprising that future events could be predicted by demonic forces with strong certainty.

What I'm pointing out is that the message is very Eurocentric. That does not seem to align 100% with our universal God.

In summary, what we have here is a political message being communicated through military strategic means to unsuspecting children - a strategy that is unique to Fatima - by a God who is cognizant with the main driver of WWII Hitler.

I wish I had a better report to give you but that's what my analysis came up with. You've researched the events much more thoroughly so tell me where my summary does not stand up to facts.

If you have any time, I would be interested to know if Hades has any place in Catholic beliefs.
 
Political agenda transmitted to children? Why not transmit the message to him who should be the wisest and most astute of all, the Pope?

Again, political agenda transmitted to children?

Did Adam's sin not affect her in any way?

Does Hades (Gr: αδου in the GNT) have a place in Catholic beliefs?

Where was it documented that "an unnatural light ... actually happened in 1938"? How does one prove that a light is "unnatural"?

In a Eurocentric view that may be true but there are always atrocities happening in the world at any point in time. There is never "an era of peace" if you take the whole world into consideration. Sounds like the Apparition was Politically Eurocentric.

The prophesy that World War I would end at a certain date proved false. Do you know what they did to false prophets in the OT?
I dispute the message was political it was religious.
It sought to turn the tide of atheism in Portugal and succeeded.

It sought to turn people back to God who is angry at all the “ indifferences , outrages and sacrileges” against our Lord.
It is man’s behaviour causing war.
Communism is evil in devaluing the human person, but also in embedding atheism, descending to War. A real threat needing resolution. God cares.

As for messengers , it IS for Him to choose.

iSamuel was 12 when he became a prophet.

This message was more Eurocentric, but not all are.

Guadalupe - Mexico - was about turning from the horror of pagan child sacrifice
Kibeho was about inter race hate that would cause the rivers to run red in africa with the blood of bodies and nobody left to bury them. Sadly not heeded,
Zeitoun Egypt , Panaghia capouli , turkey were about reconciling Moslem and Christian strife.
Akita reinforced the message of Fatima in Japan.
Cochabamba is South America. In the latitude john Bosco foretold.

So World wide.
I could point at others even Ukraine.
 
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I dispute the message was political it was religious.
It sought to turn the tide of atheism in Portugal and succeeded.

It sought to turn people back to God who is angry at all the “ indifferences , outrages and sacrileges” against our Lord.
It is man’s behaviour causing war.
Communism is evil in devaluing the human person, but also in embedding atheism, descending to War. A real threat needing resolution. God cares.
Paul's message concerning governments did not call out this dictatorship or that imperialistic autocracy although he had ample opportunity to do so. All of a sudden now we have Fatima speaking of Communists. What happened to Paul's message? Did it get abrogated by Fatima?
As for messengers , it IS for Him to choose.

iSamuel was 12 when he became a prophet.
12 was onset of puberty and 14 you were expected to be married. This confirms that young children were never selected to bear messages to the world at large. Jesus waited until he was 30 before he started his ministry.
This message was more Eurocentric, but not all are.

Guadalupe - Mexico - was about turning from the horror of pagan child sacrifice
Kibeho was about inter race hate that would cause the rivers to run red in africa with the blood of bodies and nobody left to bury them. Sadly not heeded,
Zeitoun Egypt , Panaghia capouli , turkey were about reconciling Moslem and Christian strife.
Akita reinforced the message of Fatima in Japan.
Cochabamba is South America. In the latitude john Bosco foretold.

So World wide.
I could point at others even Ukraine.
Ok but what about Israel (and Gaza) where all prophesies converge into or is that area marked off as a lost cause by the Apparition?
 
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The main reason why protestant groups cannot flow back into the ancient traditions is because of the veneration of Mary.

A lot of theologies started replacing the roles attributed to Mary by the ancient church based on what is actually in scripture.

For example:

The bride of Christ is the Church, not Mary.

A fourth person is not required to explain how male and female were made in the image of God, since the feminine archetype originates from the masculine Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the centre of the gospel message, not Mary.

Jesus is full of grace, not Mary.

Because of these obvious observations that pop out suddenly during bible reading, it is difficult to see anything true about the ancient view of Mary. It sounds like a fish story, that some old men made more and more grandiose by doubling down for centuries, yelling at anyone who disagreed.

So no wonder there is disillusionment to the catholic mythology, it intentionally creates a misconception, then denies saying it.

It has become "whatever."
 
Paul's message concerning governments did not call out this dictatorship or that imperialistic autocracy although he had ample opportunity to do so. All of a sudden now we have Fatima speaking of Communists. What happened to Paul's message? Did it get abrogated by Fatima?

12 was onset of puberty and 14 you were expected to be married. This confirms that young children were never selected to bear messages to the world at large. Jesus waited until he was 30 before he started his ministry.

Ok but what about Israel (and Gaza) where all prophesies converge into or is that area marked off as a lost cause by the Apparition?
You presume to tell God who can be a messenger.
You presume to tell God what his message should be.
You presume to tell God how he can turn men from atheism.

I don’t , I listen To His messengers, and I know they are true by the miracles performed , and. “ the fruits” which is how we are told to discern, and it is how the church discerns.

With respect , the authorities in Paul’s time had not accumulated the power to annihilate the world with nuclear weapons!
 
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You presume to tell God who can be a messenger.
You presume to tell God what his message should be.
You presume to tell God how he can turn men from atheism.
I'm just stating what I observe. If that to you is presumptuous then that's just too bad.
I don’t , I listen To His messengers, and I know they are true by the miracles performed , and. “ the fruits” which is how we are told to discern, and it is how the church discerns.
We walk by faith, not by sight.
With respect , the authorities in Paul’s time had not accumulated the power to annihilate the world with nuclear weapons!
So you're ok with abrogating Paul's message and replacing it with the message of Fatima?
 
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