Thomas... My Lord and my God

[synergy]

This question is making you squirm because you know what happens if you say yes and you know what happens if you say no.

When those who overcome sit on the throne of Jesus, are they sitting on the throne of God? Yes or no.

Christians who sit on the Throne of Jesus are sitting on the Throne of YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai. That's because the name Lord comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text.

The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.

 

[synergy]

Assuming that Trinitarianism is true for the moment, it remains impossible to determine which of the many alleged theophanies in the Old Testament might be a Christophany. The Old Testament does not specify which "theophanies" represent the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. Therefore, since the Old Testament does not differentiate between the persons of the Trinity, identifying a particular theophany as a Christophany is ultimately arbitrary.

Jesus has made it very clear that nobody has ever seen the Father except for himself. So all OT Theophanies are in fact Preincarnate Christophanies. That proves that you are seriously in error here.

You are, thus, the one hallucinating.

Therefore, it's you again who is seeing others who are "in the form of God". That proves that you are in fact hallucinating.

 

[Peterlag]

You can't ignore them or exclude them but "see [them] together" (synoptic.)
This is a term(synoptic) given to the Matthew, Mark, and Luke gospels which each writer provides a witness from each perspective of the same event or occasion.

There's no Trinity. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

 

[synergy]

Duplicate.

 

[synergy]

There's no Trinity. The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation. It's an evil Catholic concept that was sold to the world mostly by the power of the sword.

The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego.

Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai because the name Lord comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text.

The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai because the name Lord comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text.

The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.

Jesus is divine and not to be referred to as any other man because Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ. Also the head of the Christian Church which is called the body of Christ and the second in command sitting at the right hand of God. Now does that sound like a common mere man?

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is divine and not to be referred to as any other man because Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ. Also the head of the Christian Church which is called the body of Christ and the second in command sitting at the right hand of God. Now does that sound like a common mere man?

Finally. you get it almost close. You have admitted his divinity but not in the contextual sense of pre-existence with the Father. I suppose you are an adoptionist. Also, you may be assuming that all saints become divine, if you hold to the same heresy as runningman.

 

[Runningman]

Finally. you get it almost close. You have admitted his divinity but not in the contextual sense of pre-existence with the Father. I suppose you are an adoptionist. Also, you may be assuming that all saints become divine, if you hold to the same heresy as runningman.

The word divinity is not equal to deity. Do you get that? I am not asking for your theological reinterpretation of words, but rather you to understand what words mean.

 

[Runningman]

Christians who sit on the Throne of Jesus are sitting on the Throne of YHWH/Jehovah/Adonai. That's because the name Lord comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text.

The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.

Put the breaks on. Your premise is that κύριος inherently refers to deity when it does not necessarily translate to deity depending on the context. For example, where Jesus is referred to as κύριος it does not mean he is God. He directly contradicted your premise with Matthew 10:24 where he said the following:

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Οὐκ ἔστιν μαθητὴς ὑπὲρ τὸν διδάσκαλον οὐδὲ δοῦλος ὑπὲρ τὸν κύριον αὐτοῦ.

Jesus is a servant of God, therefore God is Jesus' Lord and κύριον refers to humans as well.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus,

Matthew 12
18“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.

Side note... there is also Matthew 18:25-27 and Matthew 20:8 that do not align with your theology.

 

[mikesw]

The word divinity is not equal to deity. Do you get that? I am not asking for your theological reinterpretation of words, but rather you to understand what words mean.

You cannot even keep the context correct in how I connect that word with the Godhead. I think your weakness is in keeping ideas in their proper context, whether it be what I share or what scriptures share. You fail to get out an argument that promotes the unitarian conception. Despite lacking convincing arguments, you still hold to the misconception yourself.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus has made it very clear that nobody has ever seen the Father except for himself. So all OT Theophanies are in fact Preincarnate Christophanies. That proves that you are seriously in error here.

Therefore, it's you again who is seeing others who are "in the form of God". That proves that you are in fact hallucinating.

You walked into it again. Please show us where Jesus said he saw the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

Finally. you get it almost close. You have admitted his divinity but not in the contextual sense of pre-existence with the Father. I suppose you are an adoptionist. Also, you may be assuming that all saints become divine, if you hold to the same heresy as runningman.

Well, I'm trying very hard to have you say nice things about me and we are getting closer to accomplishing that goal. I don't know what @Runningman has said about the saints. But they may be divine since they are referred to as the holy ones.

The holy spirit is born in Christians and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

 

[mikesw]

You walked into it again. Please show us where Jesus said he saw the Father.

I cannot believe you disregard this verse:
John 6:46 (ESV)
46not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

 

[mikesw]

Well, I'm trying very hard to have you say nice things about me and we are getting closer to accomplishing that goal. I don't know what @Runningman has said about the saints. But they may be divine since they are referred to as the holy ones.

The holy spirit is born in Christians and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

Holy ones just means people set aside for God. This is just saying roughly that we can be with God and God can be with us. The Spirit of the Godhead dwells in part in Christians too.

 

[synergy]

I cannot believe you disregard this verse:
John 6:46 (ESV)
46not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

@Runningman thinks that Jesus will be blindfolded when he sits on the Father's Throne with the Father.

“The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” ‭‭(Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬).

 

[synergy]

Put the breaks on. Your premise is that κύριος inherently refers to deity when it does not necessarily translate to deity depending on the context. For example, where Jesus is referred to as κύριος it does not mean he is God. He directly contradicted your premise with Matthew 10:24 where he said the following:

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Οὐκ ἔστιν μαθητὴς ὑπὲρ τὸν διδάσκαλον οὐδὲ δοῦλος ὑπὲρ τὸν κύριον αὐτοῦ.

Jesus is a servant of God, therefore God is Jesus' Lord and κύριον refers to humans as well.

"His Lord" in this case is the Father. You don't think that the Father is God???? Man, you're in a worse heretical state than I first envisioned.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus,

Matthew 12
18“Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.

Side note... there is also Matthew 18:25-27 and Matthew 20:8 that do not align with your theology.

So what about those verses? They are perfectly Trinitarian in that they refer to the Kenosis of Jesus.

Let's summarize again. The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

I cannot believe you disregard this verse:
John 6:46 (ESV)
46not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Falls short of saying Jesus has seen the Father in any different respect than anyone else. You learned that today didn’t you? I am sure you searched the Bible far and wide for where Jesus made any explicit statements about being a literal eyewitness to God and learned he never said it. Yet the Bible teaches many are from God. Do you understand that what Jesus has others can have now?

1 John 4 ESV
4Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

 

[Peterlag]

Holy ones just means people set aside for God. This is just saying roughly that we can be with God and God can be with us. The Spirit of the Godhead dwells in part in Christians too.

Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

 

[Runningman]

The Spirit of the Godhead dwells in part in Christians too.

In part? Try ALL.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[Peterlag]

In part? Try ALL.

Ephesians 3
19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Does that mean I'm God too?