Thomas... My Lord and my God

TomL said:
Sorry you are spouting your talking points and ignoring scripture

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,

The verse clearly shows a personal pre-existence for Christ

Now for what you failed to deal with

It states the word became flesh and men saw his glory. It further goes on to identity the word which became flesh as Jesus Christ

John 1:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

You just ignored this

Nowhere does the bible identify Christ as the impersonal plan, reason etc

Instead he is shown to be a personal being who was with God and existed in the form of God before all ages

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.


Further the Word is seen in the Old Testament appearing to and speaking to men of old and was addressed as Yahweh


Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”



Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You need to stop substituting the written word of God with your theology
Click to expand...
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
 
TomL said:
Sorry you are spouting your talking points and ignoring scripture
...


Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You need to stop substituting the written word of God with your theology
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing. It can be easy to forget the early words of a prophet's encounter with God. So, the idea of the word of Yahweh can leave the impression that the message of God just came to their thoughts. But these examples show a discussion with the Word. Then in 1 King 19, Elijah seems to find the communication as distinct from Yahweh. And the Word tells him to go outside to stand before the Lord. Then in verse 15, the Lord speaks to him. So there is this both differentiation and ambiguity in who is speaking to him.
 
Peterlag said:
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
Click to expand...
uh. how does the outward appearance differ from any other man that it should be noted in Philippians?
 
Peterlag said:
The form of God is Spirit and Jesus said he was not a spirit.
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That is a very odd assertion. What on earth do you mean by that?

In Platonism, the form is the ideal version and the physical is the manifestation in an imperfect sense. So you would be saying that there is a physical sense of God and the ideal sense.

You also would have to explain what Jesus' "form" was and what he emptied himself of and what he was left with after that so as to be a servant.
 
Last edited:
mikesw said:
That is a very odd assertion. What on earth do you mean by that?

In Platonism, the form is the ideal version and the physical is the manifestation in an imperfect sense. So you would be saying that there is a physical sense of God and the ideal sense.

You also would have to explain what Jesus' "form" was and what he emptied himself of and what he was left with after that so as to be a servant.
Click to expand...
Oh easy questions: The form of Jesus was a man. He emptied himself of nothing. Nor is there any Scripture that teaches or even mentions that God did or even could empty Himself.
 
Peterlag said:
Oh easy questions: The form of Jesus was a man. He emptied himself of nothing. Nor is there any Scripture that teaches or even mentions that God did or even could empty Himself.
Click to expand...
I guess you are denying Phil 2:7 then.
Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV)
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So if verse 7 does not exist in your bible, there is no problem.
 
mikesw said:
Thanks for sharing. It can be easy to forget the early words of a prophet's encounter with God. So, the idea of the word of Yahweh can leave the impression that the message of God just came to their thoughts. But these examples show a discussion with the Word. Then in 1 King 19, Elijah seems to find the communication as distinct from Yahweh. And the Word tells him to go outside to stand before the Lord. Then in verse 15, the Lord speaks to him. So there is this both differentiation and ambiguity in who is speaking to him.
Click to expand...
You are welcome

Note

Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”
 
Peterlag said:
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
Click to expand...
Why do you ignore the point

Phil 2:6FF clearly shows The word was not impersonal thing

Are you ready to amend that claim and affirm Christ's pre-existence as a personal being?

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,

The verse clearly shows a personal pre-existence for Christ

Now for what you failed to deal with

It states the word became flesh and men saw his glory. It further goes on to identity the word which became flesh as Jesus Christ

John 1:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

You just ignored this

Nowhere does the bible identify Christ as the impersonal plan, reason etc

Instead he is shown to be a personal being who was with God and existed in the form of God before all ages

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.


Further the Word is seen in the Old Testament appearing to and speaking to men of old and was addressed as Yahweh


Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”



Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
Click to expand...
 
Peterlag said:
There's 8 verses that I counted that said God raised Jesus from the dead. And one that said he would do it. In research of any kind we don't throw out the many clear statements on a subject and hold on to the 1 statement that says something different.
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So you do not believe scripture or you believe Jesus lied?

BTW, Scripture also states he was raised by the Spirit.

Do you imagine that to be another lie, you can just ignore?

Romans 8:11 (LEB) — 11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

You have a very low view of scripture.
 
Peterlag said:
Here's a list of more than 40 different ways logos is translated...

“the word.” “Word” is translated from the Greek word logos. It refers to God’s reason as played out in His plan and purpose. It is important that Christians have a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in most versions of John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most Bibles logos is capitalized as “Word” (some versions even put “Jesus Christ” instead of “Word” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator’s decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.

In both Greek literature and Scripture, logos has a very wide semantic range that falls into two basic categories: one is the mind and products of the mind like “reason” (the word “logic” is ultimately from the root logos) and the other is the expression of that reason in language or life: thus, “word” “saying” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meanings of logos. Some of the ways it is translated in English versions of the Bible are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words. Although the word logos appears over 300 times in the Greek text, it is only translated “word” about 175 times in the King James Version, and 125 times in the NIV 84.
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Argue against this.

When John started out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” he was introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day.

For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will

In Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
In Psalm107:20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions.
In Psalm 119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.
In Psalm 147:15-18 ~ 15 He sends forth His command to the earth; His word runs very swiftly. 16 He gives snow like wool; He scatters the frost like ashes. 17He casts forth His ice as fragments; Who can stand before His cold? 18He sends forth His word and melts them; He causes His wind to blow and the waters to flow. (and I could go on)

So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation.

And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.
What John was doing by introducing Jesus as the Logos is drawing upon a familiar word and concept that both Jews and Gentiles of his day would have been familiar with and using that as the starting point from which he introduces them to Jesus Christ.

But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had and presents Jesus Christ not as a mere mediating principle like the Greeks perceived, but as a personal being, fully divine, yet fully human.

Also, Christ was not simply a personification of God’s revelation as the Jews thought, but was indeed God’s perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh, so much so that John would record Jesus’ own words to Philip: "Jesus said unto him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, "Show us the Father"?'"

John 14:9-11~ 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

Therefore, by using the term Logos or “Word” in John 1:1, John is applying a concept with which his audience was familiar and using that to introduce his readers to the true Logos of God in Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God, fully God and yet fully man, who came to reveal God to man and redeem all who believe in Him from their sin.
 
MTMattie said:
Argue against this.

When John started out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” he was introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day.

For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will

In Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
In Psalm107:20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions.
In Psalm 119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.
In Psalm 147:15-18 ~ 15 He sends forth His command to the earth; His word runs very swiftly. 16 He gives snow like wool; He scatters the frost like ashes. 17He casts forth His ice as fragments; Who can stand before His cold? 18He sends forth His word and melts them; He causes His wind to blow and the waters to flow. (and I could go on)

So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation.

And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.
What John was doing by introducing Jesus as the Logos is drawing upon a familiar word and concept that both Jews and Gentiles of his day would have been familiar with and using that as the starting point from which he introduces them to Jesus Christ.

But John goes beyond the familiar concept of Logos that his Jewish and Gentile readers would have had and presents Jesus Christ not as a mere mediating principle like the Greeks perceived, but as a personal being, fully divine, yet fully human.

Also, Christ was not simply a personification of God’s revelation as the Jews thought, but was indeed God’s perfect revelation of Himself in the flesh, so much so that John would record Jesus’ own words to Philip: "Jesus said unto him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, "Show us the Father"?'"

John 14:9-11~ 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

Therefore, by using the term Logos or “Word” in John 1:1, John is applying a concept with which his audience was familiar and using that to introduce his readers to the true Logos of God in Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God, fully God and yet fully man, who came to reveal God to man and redeem all who believe in Him from their sin.
Click to expand...

This is how I see the logos...​

Peterlag

Thread 'Data on John 1:1'

This is all the data I could find on John 1:1. Enjoy...

“In the beginning.” There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that remind us of God’s original creation while referring to the work of restoration done by Jesus Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Genesis 1 refers to God’s original creation; John 1 refers to the Restoration, not the original creation.

While we agree with the Catechism that the meaning of “beginning” in John 1:1 refers to the beginning of the Gospel and the restoration of...
 
TomL said:
So you do not believe scripture or you believe Jesus lied?

BTW, Scripture also states he was raised by the Spirit.

Do you imagine that to be another lie, you can just ignore?

Romans 8:11 (LEB) — 11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

You have a very low view of scripture.
Click to expand...
It's not rocket science. If you have 8 verses on a subject and 1 verse that says something different. You don't go with the 1 verse and ignore the many clear verses on the same subject. And then say if you don't believe the 1 verse that you are saying Jesus lied. That's not how biblical studies is done.
 
mikesw said:
I guess you are denying Phil 2:7 then.
Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV)
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So if verse 7 does not exist in your bible, there is no problem.
Click to expand...
Which verse has the word emptied in it?

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 

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