So then you must logically believe they are in the form of God if you are going to take the form of God to just refer to being spirit.
You have not relieved the difficulty of your claim.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
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You have not relieved the difficulty of your claim.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Every verse I posted and every verse that you posted tend to say the same thing, other then "
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges..."
You do not believe he emptied himself of anything... therefore will you admit that while walking the earth among human beginnings he continued with His divine privileges?
Do you even know what emptied himself means?
"I believe he humbled himself of his sonship rights of being the son of God."
Why?
Peterlag
Well-known member
I do not believe he is or was God and so for me it's impossible for me to see that he emptied his God nature. You think he is or was God so you must believe that verse is referring to he put his God nature aside.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I believe the many verses that say God raised Jesus from the dead. You believe the one verse that says Jesus will raise himself. Something wrong somewhere.
Johann
Well-known member
God the Father:
Acts 2:24: "God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it."
Acts 3:15: "And you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses."
Romans 6:4: "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."
Galatians 1:1: "Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead."
Ephesians 1:20: "He exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms."
2. Jesus the Son (Jesus as the one who raises Himself):
John 2:19-21: "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews then said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But he was speaking about the temple of his body."
John 10:17-18: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
Matthew 12:40: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
3. The Holy Spirit:
Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."
1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
Acts 1:2: "After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God."
4. Summary and Relationship.
The overall testimony of Scripture clearly teaches that the resurrection of Jesus was not a singular act of one person of the Trinity but a cooperative act involving God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father raised Jesus (Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4), Jesus Himself claimed authority to raise Himself (John 2:19-21; John 10:17-18), and the Holy Spirit was involved in the resurrection as the one who empowered and brought life to Jesus (Romans 8:11).
Addressing the Discrepancy--
You mentioned that you believe the many verses that say God raised Jesus from the dead, and you point out the one verse where Jesus says He will raise Himself. The key to reconciling these verses lies in the understanding of the Trinitarian relationship. It is not contradictory for both statements to be true because all three persons of the Trinity are fully involved in the act of raising Jesus. In fact, each person plays a distinct role that is harmoniously united in the resurrection event. The same can be said for Jesus' statement in John 10:17-18, where He asserts His authority, as the Son, to raise Himself. It does not negate the involvement of God the Father or the Holy Spirit, but rather reflects the unity and distinct roles of the Triune God in this act of redemption.
J.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Addressing the Discrepancy would make sense if Jesus was God or part of a God. The verse in question is not a teaching on the trinity. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not.
Bits and pieces of words and half verses that are scattered all over the Bible is not doctrine. Also there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...
Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.
The Epistles would have writings like...
Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.
And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.
I saw the following the other day on the Internet...
"The only thing trinitarians have is their own imagination, human reasoning, and picking one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here and a clue there and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human reasoning process, speculations and assumptions. Nothing more. It's not the true and living God of the Bible, the God of Israel, the God of the Apostles, or the God of Jesus. The trinity is an IDOL made by man and that is the reason why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The trinitarian God is a philosophical construct of their own minds that they literally built up like a Lego."
Ah. Indeed there are people on the internet posting superfluous rejections of who Christ is by building their whole knowledge of God based on John 17:3 (but forgetting verse 5). The Unitarian denies John 1 and Phil 2:5-8 in their testimony of the divinity of Christ. Your philosophical preference for Paul to have been more explicit that Jesus is presumptuous. Paul wrote to address problems in church groups rather than general teachings. Like I show in Gal 3:19-20, they had to know of the divinity of Christ to understand Paul's point.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Paul did not write to address problems. Paul who was an Apostle for the Lord Jesus Christ wrote the gospel of Jesus Christ that concerns who we are and what we have in Christ and the trinity has no part in anything that concerns the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I guess your misunderstanding of Paul explains how you create your doctrines. Paul never expounded on all doctrines to the churches. He was resolving controversies or problems present at the time he wrote. The letters interact with the knowledge the church groups already knew -- which, in many cases, were places he had shared the fuller gospel with them. We also see in Gal 3:19-20 that the verses can only be understood in light of the deity of Christ.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Romans 1:1 opens up with... Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
If Romans is not the doctrine, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and of God. Then what is?
Paul is correcting the gentiles who had become antagonistic toward Jews. This has been missed by most commentaries, so I do not expect you to have been aware of that. That purpose in writing of course pertains to Paul for whatever cause he has in writing the letter.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Sounds like a pretty good self-description. If the Trinity is true, then you have nothing left.
Peterlag
Well-known member
A few trinity quotes from others...
A sinless man had to die, not God! I thought everyone knew this. God doesn't even sleep, much less die. - Jack Deaton
Jesus was identified as Adoni, not Adonai. No Israelite or Jew believed in a pantheon of god individuals. - Chris Keig
I challenge you to post one scripture that says God had to die for the sins of mankind. The fact is, there is no scripture that supports this, not one verse that says God had to die for mankind. - David Lopez
Peterlag
Well-known member
If the Epistles are not the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. What is?
I'm just noting that his epistles direct them to truths about Christ and the gospel but not to teach everything. They know stuff directly from him such that he only has to correct issues. Our knowledge then comes from the whole testimony of scripture.
Rather, I believe them all and you do not.
That is not how one should respond to scripture.
Your problem is with scripture
John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Genesis 15:1–8 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.” 8 And he said, “O Yahweh God, how shall I know that I will possess it?”
Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.
Peterlag
Well-known member
There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. Such an important subject matter like the trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it. And there's the spinning and twisting from the trinitarians who can't come up with one verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Trinitarians who can't come up with one verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Trinitarians who have to make up their own words that are not in the Bible. Words like trinity, deity, and incarnated. If any of this nonsense was true and since it's so important and a huge subject to Christianity and is necessary for salvation like many teach. Then it would have been taught by someone somewhere. And it is not.
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