Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

Which verse has the word emptied in it?

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

verse 7. I'm not sure what the basis is of the text you shared. You are saying he got rid of his reputation of being with God.

The subject of ἐκένωσεν is not the incarnate but the pre-existent Lord
Albrecht Oepke, “Κενός, Κενόω, Κενόδοξος, Κενοδοξία,” in TDNT

I have no idea what you make of the three verses. Again, What was it that he gave up? And why in verse 8 identify him as being found in the fashion of a man if he was already a man?

 

[Peterlag]

verse 7. I'm not sure what the basis is of the text you shared. You are saying he got rid of his reputation of being with God.

I have no idea what you make of the three verses. Again, What was it that he gave up? And why in verse 8 identify him as being found in the fashion of a man if he was already a man?

So just to be clear there's no verse in my Bible that says Jesus emptied himself or that God could empty Himself.

 

[mikesw]

So just to be clear there's no verse in my Bible that says Jesus emptied himself or that God could empty Himself.

Nothing is clear in what you are saying. That is why I asked you what you thought Phil 2:5-8 meant. If Jesus is only human, then what is this passage saying? Any human would be found in the form of a human (v8) and thus would be saying nothing in your view.

 

[MTMattie]

So just to be clear there's no verse in my Bible that says Jesus emptied himself or that God could empty Himself.

Son, Ya gotta git yerself another bible.

Philippians 2 5-8 NASB95

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

Here are 28 bibles.... Take your pick and Ill buy you one.

English Standard Version
but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Berean Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Berean Literal Bible
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men.

New American Standard Bible
but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

NASB 1995
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

NASB 1977
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Legacy Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a slave, by being made in the likeness of men.

Amplified Bible
but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man].

Christian Standard Bible
Instead he emptied himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. And when he had come as a man,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,

American Standard Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

English Revised Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Instead, he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming like other humans, by having a human appearance.

International Standard Version
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,

Majority Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

NET Bible
but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.

New Heart English Bible
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

World English Bible
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Literal Standard Version
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men,

Berean Literal Bible
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men.

Young's Literal Translation
but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Smith's Literal Translation
But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, born in the likeness of men:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Instead, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and accepting the state of a man.

New American Bible
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

New Revised Standard Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,

Haweis New Testament
but emptied himself, assuming the form of a servant, made after the similitude of mortal men;

Worrell New Testament
but emptied Himself, taking a slave's form, coming to be in the likeness of men;

Worsley New Testament
Yet He emptied himself, assuming the form of a servant, when made in the likeness of men:

 

[mikesw]

It is unexpected to have a description here other than Christ existing in the form of God as an expression of his preexistent state in full divinity per verse 6.

Then verse 7 shows he gave up something. That was his form of divinity. If this were just his being a good person or a prophet, then he would be without those qualities. If this his exalted status before being in the form of a servant, he is giving up what God sent him to be. Nor is the topic here of his kingship, because he had not yet come in that capacity. The topic of "emptying" is the divine status or ability and again cannot be some outside concept like Messiah.

In verse 8, his being found in human form hardly would need to be stated for a person whose existence only was human. That would apply to every person born and thus would not need to be stated.

 

[Peterlag]

Son, Ya gotta git yerself another bible.

Philippians 2 5-8 NASB95

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.

Here are 28 bibles.... Take your pick and Ill buy you one.

English Standard Version
but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Berean Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Berean Literal Bible
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men.

New American Standard Bible
but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

NASB 1995
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

NASB 1977
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Legacy Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a slave, by being made in the likeness of men.

Amplified Bible
but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man].

Christian Standard Bible
Instead he emptied himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. And when he had come as a man,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form,

American Standard Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

English Revised Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Instead, he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming like other humans, by having a human appearance.

International Standard Version
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, a mortal man becoming. In human form he chose to be,

Majority Standard Bible
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.

NET Bible
but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.

New Heart English Bible
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

World English Bible
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Literal Standard Version
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men,

Berean Literal Bible
but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a servant, having been made in the likeness of men.

Young's Literal Translation
but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

Smith's Literal Translation
But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, born in the likeness of men:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Instead, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and accepting the state of a man.

New American Bible
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

New Revised Standard Version
but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,

Haweis New Testament
but emptied himself, assuming the form of a servant, made after the similitude of mortal men;

Worrell New Testament
but emptied Himself, taking a slave's form, coming to be in the likeness of men;

Worsley New Testament
Yet He emptied himself, assuming the form of a servant, when made in the likeness of men:

I tend to go with the older translations because much of the newer ones are written according to the guy's religion. While Trinitarians have argued among themselves about the meaning of Philippians 2:6-8, an unfortunate thing has occurred—the loss of the actual meaning of the verse. The verse is not speaking either of Christ’s giving up his God-hood at his incarnation or of his God-nature being willing to “hide” so that his man-nature can show itself clearly. Rather, it is saying something else. Scripture says Christ was the “image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4), and Jesus himself testified that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father. Saying that Christ was in the “form” (outward appearance) of God is simply stating that truth in another way. Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God (Genesis 3:5), Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the will of God. He lived by “It is written” and the commands of his Father. He did not “toot his own horn” but instead called himself “the son of man” which in the Aramaic language he spoke meant “a man.” He trusted God and became obedient even to a horrible and shameful death on a cross.

Geneva Bible of 1587
But he made himself of no reputation...

Bishops' Bible of 1568
But made hym selfe of no reputation...

Coverdale Bible of 1535
but made him selfe of no reputacion...

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Neverthelesse he made him silfe of no reputation...

New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing...

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges...

Contemporary English Version
Instead he gave up everything and became a slave...

Good News Translation
Instead of this, of his own free will he gave up all he had...

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation...

King James 2000 Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

American King James Version
But made himself of no reputation...

Webster's Bible Translation
But made himself of no reputation...

Lamsa Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

Anderson New Testament
but he divested himself by taking the form of a servant...

Godbey New Testament
but he humbled himself...

Mace New Testament
by assuming the form of a servant..

 

[Peterlag]

verse 7. I'm not sure what the basis is of the text you shared. You are saying he got rid of his reputation of being with God.

I have no idea what you make of the three verses. Again, What was it that he gave up? And why in verse 8 identify him as being found in the fashion of a man if he was already a man?

He gave up his rights as the king of the Jews who was the son of God.

 

[mikesw]

He gave up his rights as the king of the Jews who was the son of God.

Not easy to do when he did not start reigning yet. Or it is easy to empty yourself of something you do not have.

 

[Peterlag]

Not easy to do when he did not start reigning yet. Or it is easy to empty yourself of something you do not have.

He was the king and the son of God at birth.

 

[MTMattie]

I tend to go with the older translations because much of the newer ones are written according to the guy's religion. While Trinitarians have argued among themselves about the meaning of Philippians 2:6-8, an unfortunate thing has occurred—the loss of the actual meaning of the verse. The verse is not speaking either of Christ’s giving up his God-hood at his incarnation or of his God-nature being willing to “hide” so that his man-nature can show itself clearly. Rather, it is saying something else. Scripture says Christ was the “image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4), and Jesus himself testified that if one had seen him, he had seen the Father. Saying that Christ was in the “form” (outward appearance) of God is simply stating that truth in another way. Unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God (Genesis 3:5), Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. He lived in the same fashion as other men. He humbled himself to the will of God. He lived by “It is written” and the commands of his Father. He did not “toot his own horn” but instead called himself “the son of man” which in the Aramaic language he spoke meant “a man.” He trusted God and became obedient even to a horrible and shameful death on a cross.

Geneva Bible of 1587
But he made himself of no reputation...

Bishops' Bible of 1568
But made hym selfe of no reputation...

Coverdale Bible of 1535
but made him selfe of no reputacion...

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Neverthelesse he made him silfe of no reputation...

New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing...

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges...

Contemporary English Version
Instead he gave up everything and became a slave...

Good News Translation
Instead of this, of his own free will he gave up all he had...

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation...

King James 2000 Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

American King James Version
But made himself of no reputation...

Webster's Bible Translation
But made himself of no reputation...

Lamsa Bible
But made himself of no reputation...

Anderson New Testament
but he divested himself by taking the form of a servant...

Godbey New Testament
but he humbled himself...

Mace New Testament
by assuming the form of a servant..

NKJV is hardly and old one. Certainly not the NIV either. And not the King James anything's.

But if you cannot see that these are saying the same thing... then I suspect others cant either and all that say " But made himself of no reputation...
might be the reason he did not have all follow him... wouldn't you say?

Anderson New Testament
but he divested himself by taking the form of a servant...
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges...
No one can agree... not even these... it is truly a shame....
Even thought the ones that say he emptied himself are not word for word... at least they are consistent in meaning.
Someone should do a new translation and call it the new and improved scriptures.
BUT surprise, surprise, surprise the JW NWT says PHIL 2: 7...... even they got it right
No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.*

 

[mikesw]

He was the king and the son of God at birth.

We roughly know what attributes of Godhood he emptied himself of, but what aspects of a reigning king did he empty himself of?

At minimal we know Jesus was not going around saying "follow me since I am God." Jesus mostly seemed to wait until some late-in-time moments with his disciples to present this more strongly.

 

[TomL]

I did not say all spirit creatures are in the form of God. I said the form of God is spirit.

You do believe spirit creatures exist?

So if you reduce the form of God to just spirit, how would they not also be in the form of God?

You have an obvious problem you need to deal with



μορφή -ῆς, ἡ; (morphē), n. form. Hebrew equivalent: תְּמוּנָה (1).
Noun Usage
1. form (essence)† — the expression of something (such as a visual, spatial, or preternatural expression) that reflects or manifests fully and truly (and permanently) the essence of what something is. Related Topics: Nature; Form.
Php 2:6 ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ
Php 2:7 ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

 

[TomL]

There was no Jesus before he became flesh.

There was the personal word, as shown by scripture, who became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ

John 1:1–17 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. 6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This one came for a witness, in order that he could testify about the light, so that all would believe through him. 8 That one was not the light, but came in order that he could testify about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to every person, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him, and the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about him and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ ” 16 For from his fullness we have all received, and grace after grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.


John 17:5 (LEB) — 5 And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,

 

[TomL]

It's not rocket science. If you have 8 verses on a subject and 1 verse that says something different. You don't go with the 1 verse and ignore the many clear verses on the same subject. And then say if you don't believe the 1 verse that you are saying Jesus lied. That's not how biblical studies is done.

Two at least

I showed you where the spirit raised Christ

So what do you do? Ignore them?

If so, you have a very low view of scripture, and you have no idea how bible study is done.

You should, however, consider them all true whether you understand it or not.

 

[360watt]

John 4:24-26 KJB - 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

By context..Jesus being the Messiah is linked with being God in this verse. Who is a Spirit.

Messias..in vs 25 is linked to vs 24.

 

[Peterlag]

Two at least

I showed you where the spirit raised Christ

So what do you do? Ignore them?

If so, you have a very low view of scripture, and you have no idea how bible study is done.

You should, however, consider them all true whether you understand it or not.

God raised Jesus from the dead. There's no another Spirit-God. Spirit is what God is. I'm a man who is human. That does not mean there's 2 of us.

Man Human
God Spirit

 

[Peterlag]

You do believe spirit creatures exist?

So if you reduce the form of God to just spirit, how would they not also be in the form of God?

You have an obvious problem you need to deal with



μορφή -ῆς, ἡ; (morphē), n. form. Hebrew equivalent: תְּמוּנָה (1).
Noun Usage
1. form (essence)† — the expression of something (such as a visual, spatial, or preternatural expression) that reflects or manifests fully and truly (and permanently) the essence of what something is. Related Topics: Nature; Form.
Php 2:6 ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ
Php 2:7 ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

God created spirit creatures. He did not create little parts of Himself.

 

[Peterlag]

We roughly know what attributes of Godhood he emptied himself of, but what aspects of a reigning king did he empty himself of?

At minimal we know Jesus was not going around saying "follow me since I am God." Jesus mostly seemed to wait until some late-in-time moments with his disciples to present this more strongly.

You think Jesus physically emptied something and in your case you believe it was his god nature.
I believe he humbled himself of his sonship rights of being the son of God.

 

[Peterlag]

NKJV is hardly and old one. Certainly not the NIV either. And not the King James anything's.

But if you cannot see that these are saying the same thing... then I suspect others cant either and all that say " But made himself of no reputation...
might be the reason he did not have all follow him... wouldn't you say?

Anderson New Testament
but he divested himself by taking the form of a servant...
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges...
No one can agree... not even these... it is truly a shame....
Even thought the ones that say he emptied himself are not word for word... at least they are consistent in meaning.
Someone should do a new translation and call it the new and improved scriptures.
BUT surprise, surprise, surprise the JW NWT says PHIL 2: 7...... even they got it right
View attachment 1581No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.* View attachment 1580

You think Jesus physically emptied something and in your case you believe it was his god nature.
I believe he humbled himself of his sonship rights of being the son of God.

 

[mikesw]

You think Jesus physically emptied something and in your case you believe it was his god nature.
I believe he humbled himself of his sonship rights of being the son of God.

uh. what physically think do you mean? I had no concept of physicality thing here. He still had his God nature. It is more that he limited himself in many ways. I cannot define the ways and extent of this at the moment -- if ever.