Thomas... My Lord and my God

[dwight92070]

Peterlag's "better way to understand it" is to ignore what it actually says and pretend it means something else. A child who will be born, a son who will be given, shall have the name Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Why will He have that name? Because that's who He is!
I'm sure that Isaiah was not trying to prove that Jesus is God. Most likely, He never even heard the name of Jesus, but He was moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy about Him. Nor do the authors of the New Testament try to prove that Jesus is God, but their words, also a prophecy by the Holy Spirit, show us clearly that He is God.
Yes, Jesus is the Everlasting Father, according to this verse, and no, that is not modalism. The three persons in the Godhead are distinct, and yet at the same time, they are each other.
How many times do we have to go over this? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God (distinct), and the Word was God (Jesus was God). (I know that the "modern definition" of the Trinity says that they are not "each other", but John says otherwise here.)
It doesn't matter what ANY creed says, we don't get our doctrine from creeds, we get our doctrine from the word of God. Nor does it matter what the modern definition of the Trinity is, or the definition of modalism. None of that matters. We adhere to the Bible, not the creeds or ideas of man.

The so-called "modern definition" of the Trinity contradicts itself. If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then they ARE each other, while at the same time, they are distinct from each other.

"Now the Lord IS the Spirit ... " 2 Corinthians 3:17 Did you get that? Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. The Father ALSO is called "Lord", so He too IS the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 9:6 makes it clear that the Son IS the Everlasting Father. Jesus IS the Father.

Luke shows us that the Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Jesus which IS God. Acts 16:6-10

Paul tells us in Romans 8:9 that the Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ.

Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God in Acts 5:3-4

Paul equates the gospel of God with the gospel of Jesus and the kingdom of God with the kingdom of Jesus.

The New Testament authors are not attempting to prove that Jesus is God, but that's exactly what happens when we read their writings.

 

[mikesw]

No I'm left with what you believe Jesus said. There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. Such an important subject matter like the trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it. And there's the spinning and twisting from guys like you who can't come up with one verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

I guess you mean there are no verses confessing Jesus as Lord. Maybe you just have not read enough of the scriptures?

Guys like you who can't come up with one verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Guys like you who have to make up your own words that are not in the Bible. Words like trinity, deity, and incarnated. If any of this nonsense was true and since it's so important and a huge subject to Christianity and is necessary for salvation like many teach. Then it would have been taught by someone somewhere. And it is not.

You do not know the reasons of most writings in the New Testament. The first three gospels are primarily the history and testimony of Jesus' interaction with the Israel people. Most letters were written not for the purpose of teaching but to address specific problems in church locations. But the fourth gospel goes deeper into the expression of Jesus' divinity. And as you obviously know that divinity was not interpreted in anyways as polytheism but was always reconciled with the Shema. And, of course, we have Matt 28:19-20 that points to the association of the three together: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then you shared how the second century Christians returned to that Triune baptismal name. And we still have John 2:19-21 showing Jesus raised himself, which also equates himself with the Father.
As shared many times, I do not say each person has to hear and believe the Trinitarian doctrine, but they should be in a context where that doctrine is accepted. The denial of the Trinity also leads to many other bad doctrines.

 

[360watt]

Yeah

Peterlag's "better way to understand it" is to ignore what it actually says and pretend it means something else. A child who will be born, a son who will be given, shall have the name Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Why will He have that name? Because that's who He is!
I'm sure that Isaiah was not trying to prove that Jesus is God. Most likely, He never even heard the name of Jesus, but He was moved by the Holy Spirit to prophesy about Him. Nor do the authors of the New Testament try to prove that Jesus is God, but their words, also a prophecy by the Holy Spirit, show us clearly that He is God.
Yes, Jesus is the Everlasting Father, according to this verse, and no, that is not modalism. The three persons in the Godhead are distinct, and yet at the same time, they are each other.
How many times do we have to go over this? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God (distinct), and the Word was God (Jesus was God). (I know that the "modern definition" of the Trinity says that they are not "each other", but John says otherwise here.)
It doesn't matter what ANY creed says, we don't get our doctrine from creeds, we get our doctrine from the word of God. Nor does it matter what the modern definition of the Trinity is, or the definition of modalism. None of that matters. We adhere to the Bible, not the creeds or ideas of man.

The so-called "modern definition" of the Trinity contradicts itself. If the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, then they ARE each other, while at the same time, they are distinct from each other.

"Now the Lord IS the Spirit ... " 2 Corinthians 3:17 Did you get that? Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. The Father ALSO is called "Lord", so He too IS the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 9:6 makes it clear that the Son IS the Everlasting Father. Jesus IS the Father.

Luke shows us that the Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Jesus which IS God. Acts 16:6-10

Paul tells us in Romans 8:9 that the Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ.

Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God in Acts 5:3-4

Paul equates the gospel of God with the gospel of Jesus and the kingdom of God with the kingdom of Jesus.

The New Testament authors are not attempting to prove that Jesus is God, but that's exactly what happens when we read their writings.

Yes. I'm not a fan of the diagram that has Jesus not being the Father or the Spirit. They switch roles in scripture and do things at the same time by the same power. Revelation is good example of this.

The classic symbol of the trinity has thick lines of separation, but they seem more like dotted lines to me.

When the Father and Son communicate.. I can see why they say the Father is not the Son.. they are distinct. But since it is one God ..one being we are talking about ..it is not separation or inferiority.

 

[mikesw]

I guess you mean there are no verses confessing Jesus as Lord. Maybe you just have not read enough of the scriptures?


You do not know the reasons of most writings in the New Testament. The first three gospels are primarily the history and testimony of Jesus' interaction with the Israel people.

@Peterlag -- I know you hold to this view. I was just covering a detail here.

Most letters were written not for the purpose of teaching but to address specific problems in church locations. But the fourth gospel goes deeper into the expression of Jesus' divinity. And as you obviously know that divinity was not interpreted in anyways as polytheism but was always reconciled with the Shema. And, of course, we have Matt 28:19-20 that points to the association of the three together: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then you shared how the second century Christians returned to that Triune baptismal name. And we still have John 2:19-21 showing Jesus raised himself, which also equates himself with the Father.
As shared many times, I do not say each person has to hear and believe the Trinitarian doctrine, but they should be in a context where that doctrine is accepted. The denial of the Trinity also leads to many other bad doctrines.

Justine Martyr around 160AD points out Jesus as God in his Dialogue with Trypho 60.4 and in other places. #link Dialogue with Trypho Ch 55-68

 

[Peterlag]

I guess you mean there are no verses confessing Jesus as Lord. Maybe you just have not read enough of the scriptures?


You do not know the reasons of most writings in the New Testament. The first three gospels are primarily the history and testimony of Jesus' interaction with the Israel people. Most letters were written not for the purpose of teaching but to address specific problems in church locations. But the fourth gospel goes deeper into the expression of Jesus' divinity. And as you obviously know that divinity was not interpreted in anyways as polytheism but was always reconciled with the Shema. And, of course, we have Matt 28:19-20 that points to the association of the three together: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then you shared how the second century Christians returned to that Triune baptismal name. And we still have John 2:19-21 showing Jesus raised himself, which also equates himself with the Father.
As shared many times, I do not say each person has to hear and believe the Trinitarian doctrine, but they should be in a context where that doctrine is accepted. The denial of the Trinity also leads to many other bad doctrines.

The bible says to confess Jesus as Lord. It does not say to confess God as Lord. Or Jesus as God. Or God as Jesus.

 

[Peterlag]

So in your view the bible is replete with errors?

Most if not all is your ability to take the verse out of context, or not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from bad translations.

 

[Peterlag]

@ Peterlag

What do you do with his existence in the form of God

This is clearly a personal existence of one who was able to consider (count) not an impersonal plan or reason as you have posited

I'm in the form of my mother and father. That does not make me them.

 

[Peterlag]

It states the word became flesh and men saw his glory. It further goes on to identity the word which became flesh as Jesus Christ

John 1:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

You just ignored this

Nowhere does the bible identify Christ as the impersonal plan, reason etc

Instead he is shown to be a personal being who was with God and existed in the form of God before all ages

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.


Further the Word is seen in the Old Testament appearing to and speaking to men of old and was addressed as Yahweh


Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”



Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You need to stop substituting the written word of God with your theology

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Peterlag]

A note on John 1:1 and 1:14...

Words are not living creatures. It's a form of communication. A device used to say something. This should have been taught in first grade. Jesus was God's mouthpiece just like a real Prophet.

 

[mikesw]

A note on John 1:1 and 1:14...

Words are not living creatures. It's a form of communication. A device used to say something. This should have been taught in first grade. Jesus was God's mouthpiece just like a real Prophet.

Indeed the Unitarian has been noted for hyper-literal interpretations. Thanks for another example of that. There are literary devices such as metalepsis and analogy that help us understand some options that add variety to communications. Also, logos has philosophical meaning and can convey words, speech, presence, and message. So Christ comes as the message, the presence, the image of God. We also see where the concept of message correlates with being the messenger of God or angel of God, who was called Yahweh. Here's a partial quote from 1517.org

Aristotle used logos to refer to the persuasive power of logic—a word that shares a similar meaning. Over time logos also comes to mean “presence,” particularly in religion and the philosophy of language. When you hear a person speak, that person is present with you (at least in the ancient world before technology made it otherwise), so speech gets associated with presence. https://www.1517.org/articles/a-very-brief-introduction-to-logos-theology

John probably appeals to both the Roman culture and Jewish culture in this explanation of who Christ is.

It seems you limit God and his Son by holding to a hyper-literalist reading.

 

[Peterlag]

Indeed the Unitarian has been noted for hyper-literal interpretations. Thanks for another example of that. There are literary devices such as metalepsis and analogy that help us understand some options that add variety to communications. Also, logos has philosophical meaning and can convey words, speech, presence, and message. So Christ comes as the message, the presence, the image of God. We also see where the concept of message correlates with being the messenger of God or angel of God, who was called Yahweh. Here's a partial quote from 1517.org

John probably appeals to both the Roman culture and Jewish culture in this explanation of who Christ is.

It seems you limit God and his Son by holding to a hyper-literalist reading.

Logos has many meanings and a few times I listed about 30 different ways the word is translated. Jesus was never one of them.

 

[Peterlag]

“the word.” “Word” is translated from the Greek word logos. It refers to God’s reason as played out in His plan and purpose. It is important that Christians have a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in most versions of John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most Bibles logos is capitalized as “Word” (some versions even put “Jesus Christ” instead of “Word” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator’s decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture. Below are five points to consider.

In both Greek literature and Scripture, logos has a very wide semantic range that falls into two basic categories: one is the mind and products of the mind like “reason” (the word “logic” is ultimately from the root logos) and the other is the expression of that reason in language or life: thus, “word” “saying” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meanings of logos. Some of the ways it is translated in English versions of the Bible are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words. Although the word logos appears over 300 times in the Greek text, it is only translated “word” about 175 times in the King James Version, and 125 times in the NIV 84.

cc: @mikesw

 

[mikesw]

Image removed

This was one of the worst comments:

Jesus never explained that he is going to heaven to be Jehovah again

Duh. Jesus never ceased being God so how could he again be God? He always remained God.

 

[mikesw]

Logos has many meanings and a few times I listed about 30 different ways the word is translated. Jesus was never one of them.

Another Duh. Something used metaleptically or analogically does not get definitions rewritten.
Like in this poem by William Blake (https://interestingliterature.com/2022/07/best-poems-about-roses/):

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm,
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:
Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy

This is an analogy for vulnerability and loss but such definition does not appear in the dictionaries.

 

[Peterlag]

Another Duh. Something used metaleptically or analogically does not get definitions rewritten.
Like in this poem by William Blake (https://interestingliterature.com/2022/07/best-poems-about-roses/):

This is an analogy for vulnerability and loss but such definition does not appear in the dictionaries.

Here's a list of more than 40 different ways logos is translated...

“the word.” “Word” is translated from the Greek word logos. It refers to God’s reason as played out in His plan and purpose. It is important that Christians have a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in most versions of John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most Bibles logos is capitalized as “Word” (some versions even put “Jesus Christ” instead of “Word” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translator’s decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.

In both Greek literature and Scripture, logos has a very wide semantic range that falls into two basic categories: one is the mind and products of the mind like “reason” (the word “logic” is ultimately from the root logos) and the other is the expression of that reason in language or life: thus, “word” “saying” “command” etc. The Bible itself demonstrates the wide range of meanings of logos. Some of the ways it is translated in English versions of the Bible are: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words. Although the word logos appears over 300 times in the Greek text, it is only translated “word” about 175 times in the King James Version, and 125 times in the NIV 84.

 

[TomL]

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Sorry you are spouting your talking points and ignoring scripture

Philippians 2:5–7 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man,

The verse clearly shows a personal pre-existence for Christ

Now for what you failed to deal with

It states the word became flesh and men saw his glory. It further goes on to identity the word which became flesh as Jesus Christ

John 1:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

You just ignored this

Nowhere does the bible identify Christ as the impersonal plan, reason etc

Instead he is shown to be a personal being who was with God and existed in the form of God before all ages

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.


Further the Word is seen in the Old Testament appearing to and speaking to men of old and was addressed as Yahweh


Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”



Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You need to stop substituting the written word of God with your theology

 

[TomL]

I'm in the form of my mother and father. That does not make me them.

That is a rather ignorant statement

Being in the form of your mother and father makes you as equally human as they are

Jesus being in the form of God makes him equally God (deity)

 

[TomL]

Most if not all is your ability to take the verse out of context, or not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from bad translations.

You failed to show any other interpretation for Jesus' promise to raise the temple of his body in three days

 

[Peterlag]

You failed to show any other interpretation for Jesus' promise to raise the temple of his body in three days

There's 8 verses that I counted that said God raised Jesus from the dead. And one that said he would do it. In research of any kind we don't throw out the many clear statements on a subject and hold on to the 1 statement that says something different.