Thomas... My Lord and my God

[TomL]

You are jumping from one verse to another. If I jump like you I can prove the Apostle Peter was with Adam and Eve. Jesus called Peter Satan and Eve mentioned Satan. Therefore Peter was with Eve. You can make the Word of God say anything if you jump and copy and paste one verse with another. There's no verse that says God would be the one to come to the earth to redeem us.

P.S. It is clearly identified that Jesus became God's spoke person. John 1:1 or 1:14 says nothing about Jesus being God.

Total hogwash

Its in the context

John 1:1–34 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 “It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

You just have to read it and be honest with the text.

The word who is God became flesh and is identified as Jesus Christ

 

[mikesw]

There's no verse in the Bible that says God-Man. You can't have it both ways. Either he was God or he was a man.

Unless you reasonably counter the passages indicating the divinity of Jesus in the Godhead, you are just spinning your wheels. I guess you missed all the verses that indicate Jesus goes beyond just being a nice person. All you do is look for word phrases or teachings --whether a missing imaginative Hebrew text saying "god-man" or a missing teaching about the mystery revealed of Christ's divinity. Then you limit that God could send his divine Son in the Godhead to save the world, as if that is beyond God's ability.

Maybe you can address what you mean by "God" and "man." Maybe then you would reveal why you God the Son could not be incarnate. Do you mean the God of scripture, saying of the Son, does not know how to be intervene physically via incarnation or is unable to send his Son from heaven?

 

[TomL]

There's no verse in the Bible that says God-Man. You can't have it both ways. Either he was God or he was a man.

You do not deny he was a man so what do you do with these

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (LEB) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

Hebrews 1:10 (LEB) — 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[MTMattie]

May the eyes of the blinded be opened so they might see , understand and believe.​

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Philippians 2:5-11​

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, ...

Isaiah 9:6​

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Colossians 1:19​

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

Matthew 17:1-5​

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”

John 1:18​

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

1 John 5:20​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

2 Peter 1:1​

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:8​

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Colossians 2:9-10​

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

 

[Peterlag]

You do not deny he was a man so what do you do with these

John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (LEB) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.

John 20:28 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

Hebrews 1:10 (LEB) — 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

“My Lord and my God.” A very likely way to understand John 20:28 is that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

 

[Peterlag]

Total hogwash

Its in the context

John 1:1–34 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 “It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

You just have to read it and be honest with the text.

The word who is God became flesh and is identified as Jesus Christ

John 1:1
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Peterlag]

Isaiah 9:6 from my friend John...

“a child will be born.” The Hebrew text reads, “a child has been born... a son has been given.” The Hebrew verb about being born is a perfect passive and is most literally translated, “has been born.” Although some scholars say this prophecy is about Hezekiah, and in fact it may reflect upon him in part, the prophecy is more completely about the Messiah. It's common in the Hebrew idiom to write about something that will happen in the future as if it had happened in the past, and this is referred to by many scholars as the idiom of the “prophetic perfect.” Also, the prophetic perfect occurs very often in prophecy, especially in Isaiah.

“The Mighty God is an Extraordinary Advisor” The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor” in most English Bibles. However, a better way to understand it is as a theophoric name given to the Messiah which describes God, not the Messiah. It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.

“Mighty God/Warrior God” el gibbor is the same name attributed to Yahweh (the true God) subsequently in Isaiah 10:21, as well as in all the other biblical occurrences Deuteronomy. 10:17; Jeremiah. 32:18). So, in the other places where this same phrase is used in the singular, it's referring to Yahweh, not to anyone else. So, in every occurrence of el gibbor, it refers to God the Father—Yahweh. This provides strong evidence that el gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 likely also refers to Yahweh.

Although some Trinitarians attempt to see this text as teaching the Messiah’s Deity, many do not consider that the text taken consistently in their framework would actually be calling the child “The Everlasting Father.” That would then make Jesus the “Everlasting Father” which would be Modalism, where God is strictly a unitary being who exists at different times in different modes (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son). The Athanasian Creed, which is considered as orthodox today states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” but if Isaiah 9:6 says the Son is the Father, then it would be doing that and not teaching the modern definition of the Trinity.

 

[mikesw]

Isaiah 9:6 from my friend John...

“a child will be born.” The Hebrew text reads, “a child has been born... a son has been given.” The Hebrew verb about being born is a perfect passive and is most literally translated, “has been born.” Although some scholars say this prophecy is about Hezekiah, and in fact it may reflect upon him in part, the prophecy is more completely about the Messiah. It's common in the Hebrew idiom to write about something that will happen in the future as if it had happened in the past, and this is referred to by many scholars as the idiom of the “prophetic perfect.” Also, the prophetic perfect occurs very often in prophecy, especially in Isaiah.

“The Mighty God is an Extraordinary Advisor” The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor” in most English Bibles. However, a better way to understand it is as a theophoric name given to the Messiah which describes God, not the Messiah. It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.

uh. Jesus is the one who is valiant in bringing enemies under his feet and reigning in the government. So it would not fit to just have reference to God without it being actual. Also, Jesus can be called the father of people who are new creations in him. That is what the adam typology is about.

“Mighty God/Warrior God” el gibbor is the same name attributed to Yahweh (the true God) subsequently in Isaiah 10:21, as well as in all the other biblical occurrences Deuteronomy. 10:17; Jeremiah. 32:18). So, in the other places where this same phrase is used in the singular, it's referring to Yahweh, not to anyone else. So, in every occurrence of el gibbor, it refers to God the Father—Yahweh. This provides strong evidence that el gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 likely also refers to Yahweh.

So you note the name applies to God the Father in many places and then is applicable to God the Son by context in Isa 9:6-7. Indeed this equates the child born with Yahweh rather than pointing him as a mere man -- i.e. restricted to the nature of all other people born in the earth.

Although some Trinitarians attempt to see this text as teaching the Messiah’s Deity, many do not consider that the text taken consistently in their framework would actually be calling the child “The Everlasting Father.” That would then make Jesus the “Everlasting Father” which would be Modalism, where God is strictly a unitary being who exists at different times in different modes (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son). The Athanasian Creed, which is considered as orthodox today states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” but if Isaiah 9:6 says the Son is the Father, then it would be doing that and not teaching the modern definition of the Trinity.

Nah. Like mentioned earlier, Jesus is the father of all people who are new creations in him. It would not make sense to take a modalist view, as you have noted. And the Athanasian creed correlates with Matt 28:19-20 as the early conception of the Trinity without the clutter of speaking against the heresies yet.
Then we see in John 2:19-21 that Jesus promised he would raise himself. But this is also done by God and the Holy Spirit. So they are all equal.

 

[Peterlag]

uh. Jesus is the one who is valiant in bringing enemies under his feet and reigning in the government. So it would not fit to just have reference to God without it being actual. Also, Jesus can be called the father of people who are new creations in him. That is what the adam typology is about.


So you note the name applies to God the Father in many places and then is applicable to God the Son by context in Isa 9:6-7. Indeed this equates the child born with Yahweh rather than pointing him as a mere man -- i.e. restricted to the nature of all other people born in the earth.


Nah. Like mentioned earlier, Jesus is the father of all people who are new creations in him. It would not make sense to take a modalist view, as you have noted. And the Athanasian creed correlates with Matt 28:19-20 as the early conception of the Trinity without the clutter of speaking against the heresies yet.
Then we see in John 2:19-21 that Jesus promised he would raise himself. But this is also done by God and the Holy Spirit. So they are all equal.

The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that at other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead by the power of God. Jesus does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

 

[mikesw]

.

 

[mikesw]

The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that at other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead by the power of God. Jesus does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

The problem is resolved when we recognize them in the Godhead. There then is no difficulty remaining. So you must either agree Jesus also raised himself or claim that he is a false prophet. I think what trips you up is that it can be easier to say God raised Jesus. The interesting aspect in Gal 1:1 is that Jesus is mentioned first. Then we saw Gal 3:19-20 solved by recognizing Jesus within the Godhead as shared by the Shema.

 

[Peterlag]

The problem is resolved when we recognize them in the Godhead. There then is no difficulty remaining. So you must either agree Jesus also raised himself or claim that he is a false prophet. I think what trips you up is that it can be easier to say God raised Jesus. The interesting aspect in Gal 1:1 is that Jesus is mentioned first. Then we saw Gal 3:19-20 solved by recognizing Jesus within the Godhead as shared by the Shema.

Now let's see there's 7 that say God raised Jesus...

Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

To your 1 that says Jesus raised himself.

Yep, that's a problem. A math problem indeed.

 

[mikesw]

Now let's see there's 7 that say God raised Jesus...

Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

To your 1 that says Jesus raised himself.

Yep, that's a problem. A math problem indeed.

So you are left with the option of Jesus lying.

 

[Peterlag]

So you are left with the option of Jesus lying.

No I'm left with what you believe Jesus said. There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. Such an important subject matter like the trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it. And there's the spinning and twisting from guys like you who can't come up with one verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Guys like you who can't come up with one verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Guys like you who have to make up your own words that are not in the Bible. Words like trinity, deity, and incarnated. If any of this nonsense was true and since it's so important and a huge subject to Christianity and is necessary for salvation like many teach. Then it would have been taught by someone somewhere. And it is not.

 

[TomL]

John 1:1
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

It states the word became flesh and men saw his glory. It further goes on to identity the word which became flesh as Jesus Christ

John 1:14–17 (NASB95) — 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

You just ignored this

Nowhere does the bible identify Christ as the impersonal plan, reason etc

Instead he is shown to be a personal being who was with God and existed in the form of God before all ages

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.


Further the Word is seen in the Old Testament appearing to and speaking to men of old and was addressed as Yahweh


Genesis 15:1–7 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.”



Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.



1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

You need to stop substituting the written word of God with your theology

 

[TomL]

“My Lord and my God.” A very likely way to understand John 20:28 is that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

Pure eisegesis

Thomas addresses Jesus as his lord and his God

John 20:28–29 (LEB) — 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

He is speaking directly to Jesus and not other or some impersonal; work done in Jesus

28.] The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.

 

[TomL]

No I'm left with what you believe Jesus said. There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man.

At this point, this is just patently false.

 

[TomL]

May the eyes of the blinded be opened so they might see , understand and believe.​

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Philippians 2:5-11​

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, ...

@ Peterlag

What do you do with his existence in the form of God

This is clearly a personal existence of one who was able to consider (count) not an impersonal plan or reason as you have posited

 

[TomL]

Now let's see there's 7 that say God raised Jesus...

Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; Galatians 1:1; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10.

To your 1 that says Jesus raised himself.

Yep, that's a problem. A math problem indeed.

So in your view the bible is replete with errors?

 

[TomL]

Isaiah 9:6 from my friend John...


“The Mighty God is an Extraordinary Advisor” The phrase is usually translated as “Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor” in most English Bibles. However, a better way to understand it is as a theophoric name given to the Messiah which describes God, not the Messiah. It's noteworthy that if Isaiah 9:6 was a proof that Jesus is God, nothing is said about it in the New Testament.

“Mighty God/Warrior God” el gibbor is the same name attributed to Yahweh (the true God) subsequently in Isaiah 10:21, as well as in all the other biblical occurrences Deuteronomy. 10:17; Jeremiah. 32:18). So, in the other places where this same phrase is used in the singular, it's referring to Yahweh, not to anyone else. So, in every occurrence of el gibbor, it refers to God the Father—Yahweh. This provides strong evidence that el gibbor in Isaiah 9:6 likely also refers to Yahweh.

Although some Trinitarians attempt to see this text as teaching the Messiah’s Deity, many do not consider that the text taken consistently in their framework would actually be calling the child “The Everlasting Father.” That would then make Jesus the “Everlasting Father” which would be Modalism, where God is strictly a unitary being who exists at different times in different modes (i.e., the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son). The Athanasian Creed, which is considered as orthodox today states that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” but if Isaiah 9:6 says the Son is the Father, then it would be doing that and not teaching the modern definition of the Trinity.

This is nothing but denial

The passage is stating what he will be called, not what God is

Isaiah 9:6–7 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.

The context is plain if one is honest with the text


BTW the text does not say the son is his father.