Thomas... My Lord and my God

[civic]

No.
That would make Jews God deniers, thing that no apostle ever suggested.
The apostles criticized their countrymen for not accepting Jesus messianic mission…for having crucified him… for having adhered to their sinful life.
They never ever uttered the slightest accusation to their countrymen for not having believed in Jesus deity.

To call another believer a God denier, especially another Christian fellow of yours, is charged with severe judgment and should be avoided.

That was not my question which you avoided.

(If) Christ is God and a person denies He is God would that make that person a denier of God ?

There is only one correct answer which is yes.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You really do need to study the Bible a bit better before you try to speak authoritatively on it.

and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. (Rev. 2:9 NKJ)

Please consider

• These are not Jews, but people who pretend to be Jews.
• There is no indication that these blasphemous people believed or didn't believe in the deity of Jesus, which is the topic of this thread
• Your attempt to use Rev 2:9 to imply that our Jewish brothers are God deniers has been refuted.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:2-3 NKJ)

Please consider

• These are not Jews, but Judaizers: people who despised converts from Greek origin, demanding from them to follow the Law of Moses in order to be saved.
• There is no indication at all that these Judaizers believed or didn't believe in the deity of Jesus , which is in the topic of this thread
• You attempt to use Philippians 3:2-3 to imply that our Jewish friends are God deniers has been refuted.

Jews are not God deniers, unless they live a life opposite to God.
Evangelical Christians are not God deniers, unless they a life opposite to God.

Dear @Titus, @Dizerner and @civic

I encourage you to admit that, at least in principle, nobody in this Forum is a God denier... unless you have knowledge of the private life of Forum members.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That was not my question which you avoided.

I didn't avoid it. I answered "No". That was the first word I wrote, my friend.

So, @Titus, civic and @Dizerner: stop inventing God deniers out of Christian brothers and sisters with a different theological view.
Before using that term, I kindly invite you to think what "God-denier" would mean before the eyes of God, or at least before the eyes of our Forum community.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This makes you a heretic....

And therefore, a person who, if dies now, deserves to roast in hell forever and ever?
Please clarify what the consequences are of not believing in Jesus deity.

 

[civic]

I didn't avoid it. I answered "No". That was the first word I wrote, my friend.

So, @Titus, civic and @Dizerner: stop inventing God deniers out of Christian brothers and sisters with a different theological view.
Before using that term, I kindly invite you to think what "God-denier" would mean before the eyes of God, or at least before the eyes of our Forum community.

If Christ is God those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple.

 

[mikesw]

Please consider

• These are not Jews, but people who pretend to be Jews.
• There is no indication that these blasphemous people believed or didn't believe in the deity of Jesus, which is the topic of this thread
• Your attempt to use Rev 2:9 to imply that our Jewish brothers are God deniers has been refuted.

Please consider

• These are not Jews, but Judaizers: people who despised converts from Greek origin, demanding from them to follow the Law of Moses in order to be saved.
• There is no indication at all that these Judaizers believed or didn't believe in the deity of Jesus , which is in the topic of this thread
• You attempt to use Philippians 3:2-3 to imply that our Jewish friends are God deniers has been refuted.

Jews are not God deniers, unless they live a life opposite to God.
Evangelical Christians are not God deniers, unless they a life opposite to God.

Dear @Titus, @Dizerner and @civic

I encourage you to admit that, at least in principle, nobody in this Forum is a God denier... unless you have knowledge of the private life of Forum members.

You still have a chance to come to Christ while repenting from your rejection of him. Just stop denying the deity of Christ. At least that is the safest path for you to take rather than chancing that the denial of his deity would possibly squeeze you into a justification with God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If Christ is God those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple.

If Ganesha is God, those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple.
Now replace “Ganesha” by any other being, image, or object.
I criticize your statement not because it is logically false, but because its obviousness bears no practical meaning and, in contrast, it brings division and promotes arrogance and misunderstanding from both sides.
@Runningman has already accused @mikesw of denying who God is. You see what I mean?
If we are all God deniers to each other, what are we doing in the Forum?

 

[mikesw]

If Ganesha is God, those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple.
Now replace “Ganesha” by any other being, image, or object.
I criticize your statement not because it is logically false, but because its obviousness bears no practical meaning and, in contrast, it brings division and promotes arrogance and misunderstanding from both sides.
@Runningman has already accused @mikesw of denying who God is. You see what I mean?
If we are all God deniers to each other, what are we doing in the Forum?

View attachment 1300

The problem is that some people are claiming that have a proper view of Jesus while denying the passages that point to the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. Automatically, those who claim some other god than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel deny the true God. Those who deny Christ the Son within the Godhead also are denying him and the Father. No one has made a reasonable argument against the passages that point out the deity of Christ, so they are just tricked or are ignorant. There is no free-for-all deciding that claims of other gods are okay and equal.

 

[Peterlag]

The problem is that some people are claiming that have a proper view of Jesus while denying the passages that point to the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. Automatically, those who claim some other god than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel deny the true God. Those who deny Christ the Son within the Godhead also are denying him and the Father. No one has made a reasonable argument against the passages that point out the deity of Christ, so they are just tricked or are ignorant. There is no free-for-all deciding that claims of other gods are okay and equal.

Is there Scripture in the New Testament (that would be the New Covenant which is the Epistles) where God is mention as being the God of Abraham and Isaac? I believe all such references are in the Old Testament which includes the Gospels. Do you use such language because in your mind Jesus never came? I believe the lingo in the New Testament is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

Is there Scripture in the New Testament (that would be the New Covenant which is the Epistles) where God is mention as being the God of Abraham and Isaac? I believe all such references are in the Old Testament which includes the Gospels. Do you use such language because in your mind Jesus never came? I believe the lingo in the New Testament is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What are earth are you talking about?

 

[Dizerner]

If we are all God deniers to each other, what are we doing in the Forum?

We are not here to sing Kumbaya with all peoples, but call sinners to repentance.

in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth (2 Tim. 2:25 NKJ)

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. (2 Tim. 4:2 NKJ)


Some here deny fundamental truths of Scriptures while hypocritically claiming they believe it on their to way to hellfire.

Like snakes lying in the grass they want to lead people away from faith in Christ our God suffering for their sins, as Scripture tells us.

And the true believers are here to call them out, and warn them of the dangers of their sin, and their fate of eternal torment.

Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2 Cor. 5:11 NKJ)


You post a picture of an idol and encourage men to worship idols. God will not countenance nor promote such things.

Thus says the Lord GOD: "Repent, turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations. (Ezek. 14:6 NKJ)


The real Christians are here to sharpen one another and encourage one another.

We are not here to say sinners are "okay" and everyone is "saved" already.

 

[Peterlag]

What are earth are you talking about?

Did you write this...

"The problem is that some people are claiming that have a proper view of Jesus while denying the passages that point to the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. Automatically, those who claim some other god than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel deny the true God. Those who deny Christ the Son within the Godhead also are denying him and the Father. No one has made a reasonable argument against the passages that point out the deity of Christ, so they are just tricked or are ignorant. There is no free-for-all deciding that claims of other gods are okay and equal."

I responded with the following because the words of the God of Abraham and Isaac are not in the New Testament. Those are words used in the Bible by people who write about God before Jesus came. For you to use the same lingo means you also do not believe Jesus came.

"Is there Scripture in the New Testament (that would be the New Covenant which is the Epistles) where God is mention as being the God of Abraham and Isaac? I believe all such references are in the Old Testament which includes the Gospels. Do you use such language because in your mind Jesus never came? I believe the lingo in the New Testament is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[mikesw]

Did you write this...

"The problem is that some people are claiming that have a proper view of Jesus while denying the passages that point to the divinity of Christ in the Godhead. Automatically, those who claim some other god than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel deny the true God. Those who deny Christ the Son within the Godhead also are denying him and the Father. No one has made a reasonable argument against the passages that point out the deity of Christ, so they are just tricked or are ignorant. There is no free-for-all deciding that claims of other gods are okay and equal."

I responded with the following because the words of the God of Abraham and Isaac are not in the New Testament. Those are words used in the Bible by people who write about God before Jesus came. For you to use the same lingo means you also do not believe Jesus came.

"Is there Scripture in the New Testament (that would be the New Covenant which is the Epistles) where God is mention as being the God of Abraham and Isaac? I believe all such references are in the Old Testament which includes the Gospels. Do you use such language because in your mind Jesus never came? I believe the lingo in the New Testament is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

It does not make sense for you to write the same thing you said before. The Old Testament does not include the gospels. The New Covenant is introduced by Jesus in at least the fourth gospel. God is the same God across the Bible. We just become informed that Jesus also is of the Godhead via greater revelation in the New Testament.

 

[Titus]

And therefore, a person who, if dies now, deserves to roast in hell forever and ever?
Please clarify what the consequences are of not believing in Jesus deity.

Can you believe in Allah and go to heaven?
No Jesus in Allah.

John 8:24,
- therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins

Jesus is very strict isnt He?

Better get His word rightly divided or according to Jesus, you will die in your sins(His blood will not cover your sins)

Did Jesus give any exception for not believing in who He truly is? If so give Scripture please.

 

[Titus]

If Ganesha is God, those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple

You're learning!!!!

Romans 11:22,
- Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God on those who fell severity but toward you goodness if you continue in His goodness, Otherwise you will be cut off

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Can you believe in Allah and go to heaven?

Yes, of course… if by “believing in Allah” we mean submitting our life to Allah, just s Jesus did.
Now, If by “ believing in Allah” we mean a mere theoretical assent to the existence and oneness of Allah, then that does not make us go to heaven.
“Demons” also believe Allah is one, and they don’t profit from it. Why? Because by definition a “demon” tries to act in opposition to the will of Allah.

John 8:24,
- therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins

Jesus is very strict isnt He?

Yes, He is. If we don’t follow what he taught, if we don’t repent and are born again into a life of love and submission to the will of God, we will remain dead as slaves of our sins. If we repent and crucify the old man, we are resurrected in Him to a new life.

Better get His word rightly divided or according to Jesus, you will die in your sins(His blood will not cover your sins)

Division is between those who do evil and those who do good.
Those who do evil don’t follow Jesus. Those who do good follow Jesus.
If you don’t understand this, I gently recommend to ask a five year old girl from Sunday School. Her clear soteriology will help yours.

Did Jesus give any exception for not believing in who He truly is? If so give Scripture please.

Of course there are several examples in Scripture about Jesus don’t caring at all who people thought He was.
I can quote them one by one. Are you willing to examine the evidence of these passages?
I would really like to keep this conversation open. If after reading these passages you will embrace Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Baha’i and Sikhs as your brothers and sisters, I will be very happy and praise God for you.
So, what do you say, Titus? Do we walk together through these passages?

 

[civic]

If Ganesha is God, those who deny it are God deniers. It’s just that simple.
Now replace “Ganesha” by any other being, image, or object.
I criticize your statement not because it is logically false, but because its obviousness bears no practical meaning and, in contrast, it brings division and promotes arrogance and misunderstanding from both sides.
@Runningman has already accused @mikesw of denying who God is. You see what I mean?
If we are all God deniers to each other, what are we doing in the Forum?

View attachment 1300

Thanks for making my point for me.

Do you understand the condition of the question I asked with an IF ?

You are letting your emotions and beliefs interfere with the honest answer to my question.

Now try and give an honest unbiased answer to my original question. Thank you !

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We are not here to sing Kumbaya with all peoples, but call sinners to repentance.

Kumbaya is by far a better idea.
To call Forum members to repentance, we would need to know and understand enough certain aspects of the private life of Forum members.
I have never called you to repentance, Dizerner, because I don’t know your sins.
Besides, I suspect my sins and vices are many and as bad (or perhaps worse) than yours. How then could I pass a judgment on you?

So, singing and dancing Kumbaya with you, although technically challenging (I’m not a good singer and definitely not a graceful dancer), would be morally better, infinitely better I would say, than calling you to repentance.

 

[Peterlag]

It does not make sense for you to write the same thing you said before. The Old Testament does not include the gospels. The New Covenant is introduced by Jesus in at least the fourth gospel. God is the same God across the Bible. We just become informed that Jesus also is of the Godhead via greater revelation in the New Testament.

I had to write the same thing I wrote before because you asked what the heck I was talking about. The Old Testament does include the Gospels and many preachers know this. The new covenant did not come with Jesus. There were no Christians with Jesus. Only Jews and Gentiles and the God of Abraham and Isaac which is all you see because you cannot see the Christ.

 

[Runningman]

I did not see your responses to civic's post. I do not need to see your rebuttals. You have never made a convincing case, so I do not expect you to have made an exception to your failures when responding (again?) to these.

He brought up the same or a similar copy and paste some months ago to which I replied to all. I don't recall it going anywhere. I can probably dg it up later.