Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

Being the seed of David, Jesus' genealogy would have had to be passed through the male seed (Joseph.) It's recorded in Matthew 1. God was also Jesus' Father as well. Scripture testifies that God became his Father later.

So according to the flesh, descended from David. According to the Spirit, descended from God.

Romans 1 (KJV)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

The more you share shows you as less consistent to scripture. Jesus was born of David's lineage through Mary. That is reflected in Genesis 3:15 too. It does not sound a surprise if you are neglecting the virgin birth and the overshadowing of the Spirit over Mary. You also miss that the reason to mention "according to the flesh" would likely be because of Christ's divine origin. Verse 4 does not deny that but only shows the power of affirmation of Jesus as divine through the resurrection.

 

[Runningman]

The more you share shows you as less consistent to scripture. Jesus was born of David's lineage through Mary. That is reflected in Genesis 3:15 too. It does not sound a surprise if you are neglecting the virgin birth and the overshadowing of the Spirit over Mary. You also miss that the reason to mention "according to the flesh" would likely be because of Christ's divine origin. Verse 4 does not deny that but only shows the power of affirmation of Jesus as divine through the resurrection.

If Jesus didn't have a human father then he isn't like his brothers at all, contrary to what Scripture teaches.

Hebrews 2
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[mikesw]

If Jesus didn't have a human father then he isn't like his brothers at all, contrary to what Scripture teaches.

Hebrews 2
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That also is such neglect of scripture both in opposition to the virgin birth narrative and of Heb 2:17 itself.

If he were not of divine birth, there would be no reason in Heb 2:17 for him to become like the people joined up with him. He simply would have been one among them. We have quite a clear denial of scripture here. It is good you finally exposed your view on this point.

 

[Runningman]

That also is such neglect of scripture both in opposition to the virgin birth narrative and of Heb 2:17 itself.

If he were not of divine birth, there would be no reason in Heb 2:17 for him to become like the people joined up with him. He simply would have been one among them. We have quite a clear denial of scripture here. It is good you finally exposed your view on this point.

You seem to only believe the parts of the Bible that align with your theology. I believe it all. Did you observe I just keep quoting Scripture and you don't believe it? That's the difference between you and me. When you get out of your wheelhouse of the 5-10 prooftexts you use you will start seeing things a lot differently.

 

[mikesw]

You seem to only believe the parts of the Bible that align with your theology. I believe it all. Did you observe I just keep quoting Scripture and you don't believe it? That's the difference between you and me. When you get out of your wheelhouse of the 5-10 prooftexts you use you will start seeing things a lot differently.

you can quote as many passages as you want, but you still deny who Christ is.

 

[Titus]

Being the seed of David, Jesus' genealogy would have had to be passed through the male seed (Joseph.) It's recorded in Matthew 1. God was also Jesus' Father as well. Scripture testifies that God became his Father later

All you have done is convince me that you are ignorant of the Scriptures.

You have denied the virgin birth of Mary.
This makes you a heretic.

 

[Runningman]

you can quote as many passages as you want, but you still deny who Christ is.

You're in denial of who God is. Why do you not believe the Bible that the only God is the Father?

 

[Runningman]

All you have done is convince me that you are ignorant of the Scriptures.

You have denied the virgin birth of Mary.
This makes you a heretic.

That's not a refute to what I said. I don't care what you think about me. If you can't defend your beliefs then that is not my fault.

 

[Titus]

That's not a refute to what I said. I don't care what you think about me. If you can't defend your beliefs then that is not my fault.

I did. Not one of you God deniers have answered my question.
2Thessalonians 2:10-11,
- so God will cause them a strong delusion so that they will believe these lies
- then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth

 

[mikesw]

That's not a refute to what I said. I don't care what you think about me. If you can't defend your beliefs then that is not my fault.

Here is a good list of details point to the deity of Christ in the Godhead as provided by civic. Do we really need to re-post this info over and over again?
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/󠅤-the-lord-sent-jesus-christ.2325/post-141875

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.


John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory


These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre-existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.



John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"


John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'


John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre-existed.



John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.


Once again we see the pre-existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.



John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.



John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.



Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.



John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"


John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."


Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me(your Son in verse 2) in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.


Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.



John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.


1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.

Colossians 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,

"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,


Hebrews 5:7-8

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.


The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Son.


conclusion: The Father sent the Son into this world and we know this as the Incarnation. Meaning God became flesh( a man). Since the Son is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity scripture calls the Son- God manifest in the flesh. The OP is a major failure.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

I did. Not one of you God deniers have answered my question.
2Thessalonians 2:10-11,
- so God will cause them a strong delusion so that they will believe these lies
- then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth

How do you know that isn't talking about you when your "God is a Trinity" theology isn't actually in the Bible?

 

[Runningman]

Here is a good list of details point to the deity of Christ in the Godhead as provided by civic. Do we really need to re-post this info over and over again?
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/󠅤-the-lord-sent-jesus-christ.2325/post-141875

All previously refuted without an answer to the refute. Which one(s) do you want to go through again?

 

[mikesw]

All previously refuted without an answer to the refute. Which one(s) do you want to go through again?

I did not see your responses to civic's post. I do not need to see your rebuttals. You have never made a convincing case, so I do not expect you to have made an exception to your failures when responding (again?) to these.

 

[Titus]

How do you know that isn't talking about you when your "God is a Trinity" theology isn't actually in the Bible?

You have already taught Jesus was born from a mans seed, that being Joseph's seed.
No other conclusion can be drawn that Jesus must based on your teaching have a physical father.

Isn't that enough evidence that you are under strong delusion?
Or do I need more evidence to conclude that you cannot be right in your exegesis of the Scriptures?

How much evidence do I need Sir?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I did. Not one of you God deniers have answered my question.

Hi Titus

Nobody here is a God denier.
What we deny are specific theological views about God... views that have nothing to do with his love, mercy, justice, wisdom.
You disagree with the view of @Runningman and he disagrees with your view. That's all, my friend. It is the most normal and natural thing in a religious debate.

I encourage you to reflect about this: it would be a sign of enormous arrogance for me to think that, because you don't share my view, you are a God denier. Am I the spokesman of God? Is my interpretation of the Scriptures 100% correct?

 

[civic]

Hi Titus

Nobody here is a God denier.
What we deny are specific theological views about God... views that have nothing to do with his love, mercy, justice, wisdom.
You disagree with the view of @Runningman and he disagrees with your view. That's all, my friend. It is the most normal and natural thing in a religious debate.

I encourage you to reflect about this: it would be a sign of enormous arrogance for me to think that, because you don't share my view, you are a God denier. Am I the spokesman of God? Is my interpretation of the Scriptures 100% correct?

If Jesus is God then those who deny He is God would be by default God deniers correct ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If Jesus is God then those who deny He is God would be by default God deniers correct ?

No.
That would make Jews God deniers, thing that no apostle ever suggested.
The apostles criticized their countrymen for not accepting Jesus messianic mission…for having crucified him… for having adhered to their sinful life.
They never ever uttered the slightest accusation to their countrymen for not having believed in Jesus deity.

To call another believer a God denier, especially another Christian fellow of yours, is charged with severe judgment and should be avoided.

 

[Dizerner]

No.
That would make Jews God deniers, thing that no apostle ever suggested.

You really do need to study the Bible a bit better before you try to speak authoritatively on it.

and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. (Rev. 2:9 NKJ)

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:2-3 NKJ)

 

[mikesw]

No.
That would make Jews God deniers, thing that no apostle ever suggested.
The apostles criticized their countrymen for not accepting Jesus messianic mission…for having crucified him… for having adhered to their sinful life.
They never ever uttered the slightest accusation to their countrymen for not having believed in Jesus deity.

To call another believer a God denier, especially another Christian fellow of yours, is charged with severe judgment and should be avoided.

Part of the dispute here is whether such denials of the deity of Christ, except possibly for ignorance, should be considered a fellow Christian. Some may be actual Christians, but is it hard to be assured of that. If they are still trying to sort ideas out, that is a positive sign.

 

[Titus]

Hi Titus

Nobody here is a God denier.
What we deny are specific theological views about God... views that have nothing to do with his love, mercy, justice, wisdom.
You disagree with the view of @Runningman and he disagrees with your view. That's all, my friend. It is the most normal and natural thing in a religious debate.

I encourage you to reflect about this: it would be a sign of enormous arrogance for me to think that, because you don't share my view, you are a God denier. Am I the spokesman of God? Is my interpretation of the Scriptures 100% correct?

The religion you are in?
Does the man who founded the religion claim to have United all religions?
Does he claim to fulfill prophecy?