Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

Two Unitarians here totally disagree with your absurdity.

This great to see.

We aren't judging each other and don't care. The Biblical Unitarian stance on this is that while some believe it's okay to pray to Jesus, they don't judge those who don't because there is no commandment in Scripture to do so.

"It seems clear that we can pray to Jesus for things we need. However, the Bible does not give us clear direction as to when or about what a believer should talk to Jesus, as opposed to God. Whether a believer prays to God or Jesus is left up to the individual.

However, the vast majority of scriptures dealing with prayer make it clear that God is the principal source of all things, and therefore should be the chief focus of our worship, praise, and supplication. Those who enthusiastically embrace the idea of praying to the Lord Jesus must recognize that this practice ought not to be carried out to the point of distracting one from the worship of the Father. We are sure that the Lord Jesus would find it ironic indeed if he himself were to become the principal object of Christian worship and adoration, when his entire life and ministry was devoted to the glorification of his Father.

We should also make it clear that we are not saying that a Christian must pray to the Lord Jesus as part of his or her Christian walk. Because there is no clear command to do so, as there is to God (Eph. 5:19,20; Col. 1:3,9; 4:3), we must never tell anyone they must pray to Jesus. On the other hand, we shudder at the idea of any Christian telling another that it is wrong for him to talk/pray to the Lord Jesus. We would particularly hate to see believers judge one another and segregate themselves from other Christians over the issue of whether or not they pray to the Lord Jesus. We think whether or not one prays to Jesus is a matter of individual conscience, and not an issue about which believers ought to tyrannize one another."

 

[Runningman]

Zero proof for such an outlandish assertion.

Read the thread again. The "best this board had to offer" struggled completely and could not produce any such scripture with directions on praying to Jesus.

 

[Fred]

We aren't judging each other and don't care. The Biblical Unitarian stance on this is that while some believe it's okay to pray to Jesus, they don't judge those who don't because there is no commandment in Scripture to do so.

It is not a question as to whether or not judging one another takes place, but whether or not Jesus can be prayed to.

You can stop dodging doing so with them.

 

[Fred]

Read the thread again. The "best this board had to offer" struggled completely and could not produce any such scripture with directions on praying to Jesus.

I read it.
And it was vey easy to refute.

 

[Runningman]

I read it.
And it was vey easy to refute.

There is no refute against the OP of that thread. It's extremely dishonest to say otherwise. A teaching to pray to Jesus would be an instruction of what to do and/or say in praying to Jesus. Doesn't exist in the Bible. Give up already and stop embarrassing yourself. Here we are you haven't even quoted any relevant scripture.

 

[Fred]

There is no refute against the OP of that thread. It's extremely dishonest to say otherwise.

Your delusion does not count as evidence.

 

[Runningman]

Your delusion does not count as evidence.

Matthew 6:6,9 is still there with explicit instructions on praying to the Father. You don't have jack squat with directions on praying to Jesus. Check mate.

 

[Fred]

Matthew 6:6,9 is still there with explicit instructions on praying to the Father.

Which doesn't negate praying to Jesus.

It doesn't read to pray only to the Father.

Keep laughing at your own confusion.

 

[Runningman]

Which doesn't negate praying to Jesus.

It doesn't read to pray only to the Father.

Keep laughing at your own confusion.

What negates your premise is you have no Scripture that teach anything about praying to Jesus. Yes, I will laugh at you since after many days, weeks, and months you're still here. Incorrigible to the core.

 

[mikesw]

We learn from Hosea 12:4 that the “man” was an angel.

Hosea 12:4
Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;

That is consistent with Jesus being the Logos or Message of God to humanity. So Jesus is the angel (messenger) or message of God but also God. So we find explanation of the angel in John 1.

 

[mikesw]

Matthew 6:6,9 is still there with explicit instructions on praying to the Father. You don't have jack squat with directions on praying to Jesus. Check mate.

Jesus gives instruction about praying without making a show of it. It is saying to pray for the coming of Christ's kingdom. Jesus shares this before he took on his Messianic title. He had not even presented himself as the Messiah. Thus, this a prayer described only in a context of people not knowing the Messiah is there among them.

 

[Fred]

What negates your premise is you have no Scripture that teach anything about praying to Jesus.

False.

 

[mikesw]

False.

From https://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.[10]

The recognition of Jesus being recognized as God per observation of Pliny around 112AD means there is plenty of reason to pray to Christ Jesus rather then excluding him from the Godhead. The recognition of the deity of Christ in the Godhead is not some late development.

 

[mikesw]

We aren't judging each other and don't care. The Biblical Unitarian stance on this is that while some believe it's okay to pray to Jesus, they don't judge those who don't because there is no commandment in Scripture to do so.

"It seems clear that we can pray to Jesus for things we need. However, the Bible does not give us clear direction as to when or about what a believer should talk to Jesus, as opposed to God. Whether a believer prays to God or Jesus is left up to the individual.

However, the vast majority of scriptures dealing with prayer make it clear that God is the principal source of all things, and therefore should be the chief focus of our worship, praise, and supplication. Those who enthusiastically embrace the idea of praying to the Lord Jesus must recognize that this practice ought not to be carried out to the point of distracting one from the worship of the Father. We are sure that the Lord Jesus would find it ironic indeed if he himself were to become the principal object of Christian worship and adoration, when his entire life and ministry was devoted to the glorification of his Father.

We should also make it clear that we are not saying that a Christian must pray to the Lord Jesus as part of his or her Christian walk. Because there is no clear command to do so, as there is to God (Eph. 5:19,20; Col. 1:3,9; 4:3), we must never tell anyone they must pray to Jesus. On the other hand, we shudder at the idea of any Christian telling another that it is wrong for him to talk/pray to the Lord Jesus. We would particularly hate to see believers judge one another and segregate themselves from other Christians over the issue of whether or not they pray to the Lord Jesus. We think whether or not one prays to Jesus is a matter of individual conscience, and not an issue about which believers ought to tyrannize one another."

That post is quoted from https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/jesus-christ/can-we-pray-to-jesus-christ or it is runningman who originally wrote that content.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That post is quoted from https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/jesus-christ/can-we-pray-to-jesus-christ or it is runningman who originally wrote that content.

Isn't it "weird" that this "Unitarian God" they see is like Allah?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Which doesn't negate praying to Jesus.

It doesn't read to pray only to the Father.

Keep laughing at your own confusion.

Dear Fred and @Runningman

Matthew 6:6-9 doesn't negate praying to Virgin Mary or Krishna. Perhaps Jesus forgot to say: You can also pray to My Mother and Krishna, and not only to my Father. Or perhaps He said it, but the evangelist forgot to write it down in his gospel.
Every time we make the claim "The absence of X in the passage does not negate the possibility of X" we must be very careful... otherwise we can easily fall in fallacies ex silentio.

So let´s look at the context:
Jesus was talking about how to pray and how not to pray. "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites.... But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father... and when you pray, do not use vain repetitions..."

So, Jesus was specifically talking about what to do and what not to do in prayer.
Then He asked: "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in Heaven..." Did Jesus establish a manner or not? Did Jesus Himself pray to the Father, or did He pray to the Holy Spirit, or to Moses? Or didn't he pray at all, as He and His Father were one?

*****

During his ministry, Jesus was asked to do many things and He liked to be asked... and Jesus is alive today.
He continues to be the manifestation of God and a mediator before God. So, you and @Runningman can ask Him things. He will listen.

But such practice is a marginal, optional thing. It is not the model He taught... and of course, it is by no means a way to "prove" that Jesus is God.
If Jesus were THE proper recipient of prayer (not "a", indefinite article, but "the", definite article), then He would had been totally clear and explicit that we should pray to Jesus, and Peter and Paul would be doing that and asking us to do that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What negates your premise is you have no Scripture that teach anything about praying to Jesus. Yes, I will laugh at you since after many days, weeks, and months you're still here. Incorrigible to the core.

Well, I suppose God could laugh at each of us reading our posts, not in mockery but as a Father who is having fun hearing to the things his small kid babbles.
God doesn't want any of us to laugh at each other in mockery: we are precious in his eyes, and our understanding is so limited!

In debates we can and must refute arguments, but respect persons.
@Fred is perhaps much closer to God than you and me and deserves our respect.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Two Unitarians here even disagree with your false position that Jesus isn't to be prayed to.

I'm not saying Jesus is to be prayed.
I'm just saying you can pray to Jesus. He will listen.

If I were saying Jesus "is to be prayed" I would go against the example and teachings of Jesus Himself.

 

[Peterlag]

That is consistent with Jesus being the Logos or Message of God to humanity. So Jesus is the angel (messenger) or message of God but also God. So we find explanation of the angel in John 1.

Jesus was born thousands of years later. Not during Hosea.

 

[Peterlag]

And Jesus quotes it in the New Testament (Luke 4:8).

In fact, that there is one Lord (YHWH) (Deut. 6:4) is inseparably linked with the worship that He ALONE is to receive (Deut. 6:13).

If others besides YHWH can be properly prayed to then there can be more than 1 YHWH.

Jesus had not yet became the resurrected Lord and Christ when he said that in Luke.