duh. We know that the Son of God only became incarnate as Jesus long after Jacob. You have not made a good argument against the deity of Christ
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
Dear Fred and @Runningman
Matthew 6:6-9 doesn't negate praying to Virgin Mary or Krishna. Perhaps Jesus forgot to say: You can also pray to My Mother and Krishna, and not only to my Father. Or perhaps He said it, but the evangelist forgot to write it down in his gospel.
Every time we make the claim "The absence of X in the passage does not negate the possibility of X" we must be very careful... otherwise we can easily fall in fallacies ex silentio.
So let´s look at the context:
Jesus was talking about how to pray and how not to pray. "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites.... But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father... and when you pray, do not use vain repetitions..."
So, Jesus was specifically talking about what to do and what not to do in prayer.
Then He asked: "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in Heaven..." Did Jesus establish a manner or not? Did Jesus Himself pray to the Father, or did He pray to the Holy Spirit, or to Moses? Or didn't he pray at all, as He and His Father were one?
*****
During his ministry, Jesus was asked to do many things and He liked to be asked... and Jesus is alive today.
He continues to be the manifestation of God and a mediator before God. So, you and @Runningman can ask Him things. He will listen.
But such practice is a marginal, optional thing. It is not the model He taught... and of course, it is by no means a way to "prove" that Jesus is God.
If Jesus were THE proper recipient of prayer (not "a", indefinite article, but "the", definite article), then He would had been totally clear and explicit that we should pray to Jesus, and Peter and Paul would be doing that and asking us to do that.
You already affirmed it is okay to pray to Jesus.
Get your story straight.
Not "is to be prayed" but "is to be prayed to".
Thus, Jesus is the Hearer of prayer.
Thanks.
Irrelevant.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The article "The" is yours, and it is mistaken.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Yes, it is okay to pray to Jesus.
What part of my story is not straight?
It is correct because there is only one who is the Hearer (not 'Hearers') of prayer.
God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
How is it irrelevant? He became the head of the body which is his church after the resurrection. Not before. We did not pray to him when he walked the earth.
Runningman
Well-known member
Here's my question... if prayer is basically talking and you and I are basically talking, then why is it called prayer if it's talking? Are you and I praying to each other? Did people talk to Jesus in the Bible even after he ascended to heaven? Absolutely! I am not denying that at all, but is the word "prayer" ever used to describe that talking to Jesus? Are there any commandments like, "Hey, you gotta pray to Jesus?" None. That's where I draw the line. Prayer and talking isn't the same idea. I don't say people should not talk to Jesus. Absolutely, talk to Jesus. I have many times. Jesus, as our Lord, must be talked to.
Because the truth of Deuteronomy 6:4 (as well 6:13) is taught even after the resurrection of Christ.
Runningman
Well-known member
I see a directive on who and how to pray as specific enough to find no need to include others in that praying. Since Jesus is our Lord and the Lord is silent about praying to him, it would be a transgression to just start doing things he didn't say to do in matters of praying.Dear Fred and @Runningman
Matthew 6:6-9 doesn't negate praying to Virgin Mary or Krishna. Perhaps Jesus forgot to say: You can also pray to My Mother and Krishna, and not only to my Father. Or perhaps He said it, but the evangelist forgot to write it down in his gospel.
Every time we make the claim "The absence of X in the passage does not negate the possibility of X" we must be very careful... otherwise we can easily fall in fallacies ex silentio.
So let´s look at the context:
Jesus was talking about how to pray and how not to pray. "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites.... But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father... and when you pray, do not use vain repetitions..."
So, Jesus was specifically talking about what to do and what not to do in prayer.
Then He asked: "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in Heaven..." Did Jesus establish a manner or not? Did Jesus Himself pray to the Father, or did He pray to the Holy Spirit, or to Moses? Or didn't he pray at all, as He and His Father were one?
*****
During his ministry, Jesus was asked to do many things and He liked to be asked... and Jesus is alive today.
He continues to be the manifestation of God and a mediator before God. So, you and @Runningman can ask Him things. He will listen.
But such practice is a marginal, optional thing. It is not the model He taught... and of course, it is by no means a way to "prove" that Jesus is God.
If Jesus were THE proper recipient of prayer (not "a", indefinite article, but "the", definite article), then He would had been totally clear and explicit that we should pray to Jesus, and Peter and Paul would be doing that and asking us to do that.
Runningman
Well-known member
Wow. God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. I don't know how this is unclear to them.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peterlag is using this in connection with his affirmation that Jesus can be prayed to.
Which contradicts your false belief.
Runningman
Well-known member
But as far as I can tell, he doesn't make it's a mandatory requirement or say there are teachings on it like you do with your false beliefs.
Irrelevant.
He says it is okay to do and also affirms he has passages from the Bible to back it up.
This runs counter to your false teaching big time!
Runningman
Well-known member
Irrelevant. Jesus said pray to the Father. You may as well be praying to Krishna or Allah with that mentality.
Let's get to the point. What exactly is praying to you? Is it just talking?
Tell him that. He's a fellow Unitarian but knows Jesus can be prayed to.
Runningman
Well-known member
Your argument is with him about that. My argument is with you who insists there are directions or commandments to pray to Jesus in the Bible after you brought up the thread I posted. There is nothing about what you said in the Bible. That OP will never be refuted.
No, it isn't. He is right in that it is okay to pray to Jesus.
Your argument is against a fellow Unitarian..which is great to see.
Runningman
Well-known member
Nope. I don't have any argument with Unitarians. It's with Trinitarians. I don't agree with you who keeps saying there are instructions on praying to Jesus in the Bible. None there. It's our Book.
