The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

I do wish Frankie would talk on this rather then every religion has a way to God....

First.... It is in the Protestant Bible, The Peshitta and the Complete Jewish bible that the Holy Spirit came upone Mary

Now unless he had a way to inject into Mary I call that pretty immaculate.

FROM the CJB

“The Ruach HaKodesh will come over you,
the power of Ha‘Elyon will cover you.
Therefore the holy child born to you
will be called the Son of God.
Yes. The point is that all infants are sinless coming into the world. God does not create anything sinful, including human flesh.
 
You can't understand the Bible because nobody ever taught you how to read it. And I see this when you take my words out of context and spin everything I write. I gave an example using the word flesh. You twisted that into I was taking about flesh. Read up a few post. I said... For example the word "flesh"

I read everything you wrote. He is right. You believe that man has a sinful nature instead of being born innocent.

You can't defend this nonsense. Jesus Christ carried the traits of Mary which carried the traits of mothers and fathers throughout their lineages.

I'll be glad to discuss aspects of trichotomy and dichotomy with you. I'm certain you've never even heard of such.
 
I use the word "flesh" the way that it is used in the Bible. Jesus was never in the flesh the way that the Bible uses the word flesh. You have to understand how the Bible writes and stop comparing it to how you write.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, [who don't have spirit] but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death;
[because those with the flesh have no spirit] but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh
[again because they have no spirit] cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh,
[are you going to say the Scriptures are wrong because you believe you are flesh and bone? The Bible does not use the word flesh the way you do] but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Let's bring in John 1:14 and try to harmonize all verses.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So if flesh is sinful then Jesus is automatically sinful. What does that tell you? Flesh is not sinful by itself. It is our walking in the flesh (not in the Spirit) that is sinful. It is our volitional deliberate catering to the flesh that is sinful. Without our catering to it, there is no sin.
 
How can flesh be sinful and sinless at the same time? Either it's sinful or it's not. That's why the Catholic immaculate conception idea came into being, to.protect Christ's sinless nature. Unfortunately for Catholics, two wrongs don't make a right. Thank goodness I'm not Catholic and an assessorary to that heresy.

So based on your warped logic, I can toss everything else you wrote out the window.
At least you reject original sin, but it’s one of the safety net doctrines that protects the teachings about the deity of Jesus. Without your belief in this you don’t have an excuse to believe Jesus is God. You won’t see it today, nor maybe tomorrow, but you’re on the right track. It’s inevitable at this point. God bless.
 
At least you reject original sin, but it’s one of the safety net doctrines that protects the teachings about the deity of Jesus. Without your belief in this you don’t have an excuse to believe Jesus is God. You won’t see it today, nor maybe tomorrow, but you’re on the right track. It’s inevitable at this point. God bless.
You need to be careful how you define "original sin". Adam did sin and death for all was the consequences of that. We also fell spiritually. But that does not mean that we were made guilty, therefore branding us as sinful. We experienced the consequences of his sin, not that we were made sinful. Thus, God is needed to save us from death and that's exactly what Jesus did as only God can do.
 
Let's bring in John 1:14 and try to harmonize all verses.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So if flesh is sinful then Jesus is automatically sinful. What does that tell you? Flesh is not sinful by itself. It is our walking in the flesh (not in the Spirit) that is sinful. It is our volitional deliberate catering to the flesh that is sinful. Without our catering to it, there is no sin.
Game set and match this also seems to be something in common with some unis concerning Jesus accusing Him also of having sinful lust.
 
You need to be careful how you define "original sin". Adam did sin and death for all was the consequences of that. We also fell spiritually. But that does not mean that we were made guilty, therefore branding us as sinful. We experienced the consequences of his sin, not that we were made sinful. Thus, God is needed to save us from death and that's exactly what Jesus did as only God can do.
That would be a strawman since that isn't how I defined original sin. I am defining original sin by how it's defined already. No need to make up something new for it. What you said in one of your previous comments was "If we are automatically sinful because of our flesh then what does that make Jesus who also has flesh?" sic

The answer to your question is we are the same as Jesus. Why do you think Jesus taught people they must be born again? When was their first birth? If they need to be born again then they had a death after their first birth. Of course, Jesus is referring to spiritual rebirth. Spiritual death occurs when someone sins, i.e., breaks one or more of God's laws.

On the matter of being saved from death, God had to save Jesus from death. As Hebrews 5:7 says, "During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Someone who requires God to be their savior is not themselves God, but not different than a normal human like you and I who require God to save us. Additionally, Jesus was heard on a conditional basis because of his reverent submission [to God]. Jesus is just like us, one of the people, needing a savior. The authority Jesus was granted to give eternal life (John 17:2) was not inherently his and it's conditional on someone being given to Jesus by God. It's not based on Jesus' autonomous decisions, but rather God's directions.
 
Let's bring in John 1:14 and try to harmonize all verses.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So if flesh is sinful then Jesus is automatically sinful. What does that tell you? Flesh is not sinful by itself. It is our walking in the flesh (not in the Spirit) that is sinful. It is our volitional deliberate catering to the flesh that is sinful. Without our catering to it, there is no sin.
Let's bring the God's Word Tranlsation, translated by Trinitarians and their sponsors, into this. In John 1:14 they straight up called the Word a thing.

John 1 (GWT)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Same thing in 1 John 1:1-3, but it's not just the GWT that does this to the word, but practically all Bibles.

1 John 1 (GWT)
1The Word of life existed from the beginning. We have heard it. We have seen it. We observed and touched it. 2This life was revealed to us. We have seen it, and we testify about it. We are reporting to you about this eternal life that was in the presence of the Father and was revealed to us. 3This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Understanding why eternal life is knowing the only true God the Father and Jesus now? The Word is eternal life and eternal life was in Jesus who revealed it to us. The Word isn't a person in the Bible. Yes, I know the Bibles use masculine pronouns to refer to the Word, but that is clearly personification of a non person thing. The Word isn't a pre-existent person in the Bible. The Unitarians have accurately and rightly divided this.
 
Let's bring the God's Word Tranlsation, translated by Trinitarians and their sponsors, into this. In John 1:14 they straight up called the Word a thing.

John 1 (GWT)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Same thing in 1 John 1:1-3, but it's not just the GWT that does this to the word, but practically all Bibles.

1 John 1 (GWT)
1The Word of life existed from the beginning. We have heard it. We have seen it. We observed and touched it. 2This life was revealed to us. We have seen it, and we testify about it. We are reporting to you about this eternal life that was in the presence of the Father and was revealed to us. 3This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Understanding why eternal life is knowing the only true God the Father and Jesus now? The Word is eternal life and eternal life was in Jesus who revealed it to us. The Word isn't a person in the Bible. Yes, I know the Bibles use masculine pronouns to refer to the Word, but that is clearly personification of a non person thing. The Word isn't a pre-existent person in the Bible. The Unitarians have accurately and rightly divided this.
Your arguments are absurd

John 1 (GWT)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

It refers to the glory not the person

And it was the glory he had after becoming human

Basic reading comprehension shows the absurdity of your arguments

concerning the word of life

They heard it, they saw it and they handled it

What did they see, hear and testify to?

An impersonal thing or a man.

his Son Jesus Christ.

Hello


They saw, heard, handled the son Jesus Christ
 
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Your arguments are absurd

John 1 (GWT)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

It refers to the glory not the person

And it was the glory he had after becoming human

Basic reading comprehension shows the absurdity of your arguments

concerning the word of life

They heard it, they saw it and they handled it

What did they see, hear and testify to?

An impersonal thing or a man.

his Son Jesus Christ.

Hello


They saw, heard, handled the son Jesus Christ
Utter nonsense from Tom again. "It" can grammatically refer to the Word as the glory being shared. Read it again. A few of your buddies here already observed this fact by the way. @synergy rejects the GWT after I showed him that verse and categorizes it with the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf.
Great Catch! In that case I'll put @Runningman's GWT alongside Mein Kampf and Communist Manifesto where it does belongs.
 
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That would be a strawman since that isn't how I defined original sin. I am defining original sin by how it's defined already. No need to make up something new for it. What you said in one of your previous comments was "If we are automatically sinful because of our flesh then what does that make Jesus who also has flesh?" sic

The answer to your question is we are the same as Jesus. Why do you think Jesus taught people they must be born again? When was their first birth? If they need to be born again then they had a death after their first birth. Of course, Jesus is referring to spiritual rebirth. Spiritual death occurs when someone sins, i.e., breaks one or more of God's laws.

On the matter of being saved from death, God had to save Jesus from death. As Hebrews 5:7 says, "During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Someone who requires God to be their savior is not themselves God, but not different than a normal human like you and I who require God to save us. Additionally, Jesus was heard on a conditional basis because of his reverent submission [to God]. Jesus is just like us, one of the people, needing a savior. The authority Jesus was granted to give eternal life (John 17:2) was not inherently his and it's conditional on someone being given to Jesus by God. It's not based on Jesus' autonomous decisions, but rather God's directions.
Do you have any idea of what context your cherry picking a single statement comes from or means?

The Perfect High Priest

5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; 2 [a]he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is [b]beset with weakness; 3 and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. 4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”;
6 just as He says also in another passage,

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

7 [c]In the days of His flesh, [d]He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him [e]from death, and He [f]was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

11 Concerning [g]him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though [h]by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the [i]elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Let there be no doubt that Jesus was The Man of great prayer!!

In particular we have Jesus earnest petition to be saved from the death of the cross as recorded in Matt 26

39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”

And it also was granted to Him... though you wont understand that at all I am sure. His flesh was not saved but His Spirit was so that He became OUR sacrificial Lamb and it is though His blood that we are saved... and no other way.

Have you not ever read about sacrifice in the Old Testament and wondered what it was for? The only payment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), and the Lord graciously allowed animals to be offered as a substitute for human lives. So people regularly brought sacrifices to God as atonement. However, it was only a temporary solution and had to be repeated often.

In order for mankind to be eternally freed from the guilt of sin, God required that the once-for-all sacrifice had to be completely pure (Leviticus 22:20). What’s more, it could not be an animal. After all, the guilt belonged to man; therefore, the world was in need of a perfect and sinless person to be offered.

What an impossible situation: Man was responsible to pay the price, but God alone was capable of sinlessness. The only possible solution was for Jesus Christ—who was wholly God and wholly man—to offer His life on our behalf. Unlike the blood of bulls and lambs, Christ’s blood was a fully sufficient one-time payment for all sin.

This is why we say that we’re saved by the blood of Christ. Jesus did what we could not—He set us free from our sins. Consider the immensity of the sacrifice He made on your behalf.
 
Do you have any idea of what context your cherry picking a single statement comes from or means?

The Perfect High Priest

5 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; 2 [a]he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is [b]beset with weakness; 3 and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. 4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”;
6 just as He says also in another passage,

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

7 [c]In the days of His flesh, [d]He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him [e]from death, and He [f]was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

11 Concerning [g]him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though [h]by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the [i]elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Let there be no doubt that Jesus was The Man of great prayer!!

In particular we have Jesus earnest petition to be saved from the death of the cross as recorded in Matt 26



And it also was granted to Him... though you wont understand that at all I am sure. His flesh was not saved but His Spirit was so that He became OUR sacrificial Lamb and it is though His blood that we are saved... and no other way.

Have you not ever read about sacrifice in the Old Testament and wondered what it was for? The only payment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), and the Lord graciously allowed animals to be offered as a substitute for human lives. So people regularly brought sacrifices to God as atonement. However, it was only a temporary solution and had to be repeated often.

In order for mankind to be eternally freed from the guilt of sin, God required that the once-for-all sacrifice had to be completely pure (Leviticus 22:20). What’s more, it could not be an animal. After all, the guilt belonged to man; therefore, the world was in need of a perfect and sinless person to be offered.

What an impossible situation: Man was responsible to pay the price, but God alone was capable of sinlessness. The only possible solution was for Jesus Christ—who was wholly God and wholly man—to offer His life on our behalf. Unlike the blood of bulls and lambs, Christ’s blood was a fully sufficient one-time payment for all sin.

This is why we say that we’re saved by the blood of Christ. Jesus did what we could not—He set us free from our sins. Consider the immensity of the sacrifice He made on your behalf.
Hebrews 5:7 says what it says. It says Jesus prayed to the one who could save him from death which is exactly the same sort of thing you and I would do because we aren't God. Jesus is a man Mattie.

The order of Melchizedek is a play on a technicality. Melchizedek isn't alive and immortal walking the earth right now just because his death record was lost. He died of course, but since there is no genealogy technically proving it then it can't be technically proven that the order of Melchizedek ever ended. The resurrection of Jesus is exploiting a loophole in this logic under the idea that Jesus is alive forever now. In a sense, he has something in common with Melchizedek and is, therefore, a priest forever. On that matter of Jesus being a priest, even right now in heaven, is proof that he is not himself God, but rather is a mediator and intercessor between God and the people just like all of the other priests before him.

Yes I agree that the sacrifice of Jesus was that of a sinless man, but it isn't the skin and bones of someone that compose what constitutes the sinless man, but rather the soul of said man. This is why it is the soul who sins who dies (Ezekiel 18:19,20) rather than flesh itself that can sin because sin is ultimately born of desire and what comes out of the heart (not the organ, but the actual thoughts and desires) of a person.

So who was sacrificed was the soul of Jesus actually. On that point, the soul of God was not sacrificed. In orthodox trinitarianism the essence between the members cannot be divided or else the whole system trainwrecks. If Jesus was God then, in effect, God died even though He is immortal. Believe it or not (I guess you won't believe it) Jesus was a sinless man who was such because God is his Father and he learned his behaviors and mannerisms from God (his Father.) Therefore he never learned how to sin, but rather how to be completely holy and righteous. He also taught people that ceasing their sin activity completely is attainable in the here and now.

Thank you for providing a powerful argument against the deity of Jesus.

Isaiah 53 (KJV)​
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.​
 
That would be a strawman since that isn't how I defined original sin. I am defining original sin by how it's defined already. No need to make up something new for it. What you said in one of your previous comments was "If we are automatically sinful because of our flesh then what does that make Jesus who also has flesh?" sic

The answer to your question is we are the same as Jesus. Why do you think Jesus taught people they must be born again? When was their first birth? If they need to be born again then they had a death after their first birth. Of course, Jesus is referring to spiritual rebirth. Spiritual death occurs when someone sins, i.e., breaks one or more of God's laws.

On the matter of being saved from death, God had to save Jesus from death. As Hebrews 5:7 says, "During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission."

Someone who requires God to be their savior is not themselves God, but not different than a normal human like you and I who require God to save us. Additionally, Jesus was heard on a conditional basis because of his reverent submission [to God]. Jesus is just like us, one of the people, needing a savior. The authority Jesus was granted to give eternal life (John 17:2) was not inherently his and it's conditional on someone being given to Jesus by God. It's not based on Jesus' autonomous decisions, but rather God's directions.
Biblically, as in Trinitarian theology, God works as a unison to save man. All 3 Persons contribute to man's salvation. Under the Father's direction, the Son went through the Cross and the Holy Spirit regenerated us all towards salvation. Without the Cross, there is no salvation. All 3 Persons constitute the God that saves man.
 
Let's bring the God's Word Tranlsation, translated by Trinitarians and their sponsors, into this. In John 1:14 they straight up called the Word a thing.

John 1 (GWT)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Same thing in 1 John 1:1-3, but it's not just the GWT that does this to the word, but practically all Bibles.

1 John 1 (GWT)
1The Word of life existed from the beginning. We have heard it. We have seen it. We observed and touched it. 2This life was revealed to us. We have seen it, and we testify about it. We are reporting to you about this eternal life that was in the presence of the Father and was revealed to us. 3This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Understanding why eternal life is knowing the only true God the Father and Jesus now? The Word is eternal life and eternal life was in Jesus who revealed it to us. The Word isn't a person in the Bible. Yes, I know the Bibles use masculine pronouns to refer to the Word, but that is clearly personification of a non person thing. The Word isn't a pre-existent person in the Bible. The Unitarians have accurately and rightly divided this.
John 1:1 says "the Word was God". If your Word is a personfication, as you claim, then so is your God. Come to think of it, you're right that your judaizing god is just a personification. Carry on with your myths and fairy tales....
 
Biblically, as in Trinitarian theology, God works as a unison to save man. All 3 Persons contribute to man's salvation. Under the Father's direction, the Son went through the Cross and the Holy Spirit regenerated us all towards salvation. Without the Cross, there is no salvation. All 3 Persons constitute the God that saves man.
Never read anything like that in any Bible. According to your religions' doctrine, why did a member of the Trinity require God being his savior?

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
 
John 1:1 says "the Word was God". If your Word is a personfication, as you claim, then so is your God. Come to think of it, you're right that your judaizing god is just a personification. Carry on with your myths and fairy tales....
According to the context, the Word is not God. The Word isn't the Creator in verses 2-3 and 9-10. Also the Word is described as a thing in 1 John 1:1-3. No one there in the Old Testament named the Word saying or doing anything. No one else talked about the "Word" as someone with God. Logos theology is incredibly weak.

John 1 (NIV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
 
According to the context, the Word is not God. The Word isn't the Creator in verses 2-3 and 9-10. Also the Word is described as a thing in 1 John 1:1-3. No one there in the Old Testament named the Word saying or doing anything. No one else talked about the "Word" as someone with God. Logos theology is incredibly weak.

John 1 (NIV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

A clear failure of reading comprehension

John 1 (NIV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

start at verse 2 and the pronoun "he"

A pronoun which speaks of the Word for it is stated he was with God
so he = The word

verse 3 same pronoun same person

So all things were created through him and nothing was crated without him

and so your denial of creation and pre-existence is refuted

for the same word was made flesh

John 1:14 (NIV) — 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and identified as Jesus Christ no matter what translation you use

BTW the word of God appeared to men in a vision and spoke

Do a little digging, but your theology is not sound
 
Hebrews 5:7 says what it says. It says Jesus prayed to the one who could save him from death which is exactly the same sort of thing you and I would do because we aren't God. Jesus is a man Mattie.

The order of Melchizedek is a play on a technicality. Melchizedek isn't alive and immortal walking the earth right now just because his death record was lost. He died of course, but since there is no genealogy technically proving it then it can't be technically proven that the order of Melchizedek ever ended. The resurrection of Jesus is exploiting a loophole in this logic under the idea that Jesus is alive forever now. In a sense, he has something in common with Melchizedek and is, therefore, a priest forever. On that matter of Jesus being a priest, even right now in heaven, is proof that he is not himself God, but rather is a mediator and intercessor between God and the people just like all of the other priests before him.

Yes I agree that the sacrifice of Jesus was that of a sinless man, but it isn't the skin and bones of someone that compose what constitutes the sinless man, but rather the soul of said man. This is why it is the soul who sins who dies (Ezekiel 18:19,20) rather than flesh itself that can sin because sin is ultimately born of desire and what comes out of the heart (not the organ, but the actual thoughts and desires) of a person.

So who was sacrificed was the soul of Jesus actually. On that point, the soul of God was not sacrificed. In orthodox trinitarianism the essence between the members cannot be divided or else the whole system trainwrecks. If Jesus was God then, in effect, God died even though He is immortal. Believe it or not (I guess you won't believe it) Jesus was a sinless man who was such because God is his Father and he learned his behaviors and mannerisms from God (his Father.) Therefore he never learned how to sin, but rather how to be completely holy and righteous. He also taught people that ceasing their sin activity completely is attainable in the here and now.

Thank you for providing a powerful argument against the deity of Jesus.

Isaiah 53 (KJV)​
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.​
Its your eternity.

I am through trying to get you to understand Jesus was a flesh and blood mortal man without whom you or I or your family could not dream of being saved.

Jesus was well aware of the pain and anguish he would experience for us. If he had not prayed for deliverance from such I would think he was daft. But He wasn't. He said "thy will be done."

For what reason , only God the father knows, there had to be a human sacrifice for the plan to be as it was. A ram, sheep, cow or dog was not going to do it because it had not done so in 4000 plus years before Jesus. Those were only temporary. And it had to be a human with out blemish or spot. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THIS?

Now whether He volunteered or was appointed the Word was to come to earth and become human ....hmmmm...avi_headscratch.gif

Lets see if what Got Questions says here will help you to understand.

The term word is used in different ways in the Bible. In the New Testament, there are two Greek words translated "word": rhema and logos. They have slightly different meanings. Rhema usually means “a spoken word.” For example, in Luke 1:38, when the angel told Mary that she would be the mother of God’s Son, Mary replied, "Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word [rhema].”

Logos, however, has a broader, more philosophical meaning. This is the term used in John 1. It usually implies a total message, and is used mostly in reference to God’s message to mankind. For example, Luke 4:32 says that, when Jesus taught the people, "they were amazed at his teaching, because his words [logos] had authority." The people were amazed not merely by the particular words Jesus chose but by His total message.

"The Word" (Logos) in John 1 is referring to Jesus. Jesus is the total Message—everything that God wants to communicate to man.

(My note: it did note work out so well when God visited Moses... )

The first chapter of John gives us a glimpse inside the Father/Son relationship before Jesus came to earth in human form. He preexisted with the Father (verse 1), He was involved in the creation of everything (verse 3), and He is the "light of all mankind" (verse 4). The Word (Jesus) is the full embodiment of all that is God (Colossians 1:19; 2:9; John 14:9). But God the Father is Spirit. He is invisible to the human eye. The message of love and redemption that God spoke through the prophets had gone unheeded for centuries (Ezekiel 22:26; Matthew 23:37). People found it easy to disregard the message of an invisible God and continued in their sin and rebellion. So the Message became flesh, took on human form, and came to dwell among us (Matthew 1:23; Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:5–11).

The Greeks used the word logos to refer to one’s “mind,” “reason,” or “wisdom.” John used this Greek concept to communicate the fact that Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, is the self-expression of God to the world. In the Old Testament, the word of God brought the universe into existence (Psalm 33:6) and saved the needy (Psalm 107:20). In chapter 1 of his Gospel, John is appealing to both Jew and Gentile to receive the eternal Christ.


Jesus told a parable in Luke 20:9–16 to explain why the Word had to become flesh. “A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.

“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.’ But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. ‘This is the heir,’ they said. ‘Let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”


In this parable, Jesus was reminding the Jewish leaders that they had rejected the prophets and were now rejecting the Son. The Logos, the Word of God, was now going to be offered to everyone, not just the Jews (John 10:16; Galatians 2:28; Colossians 3:11). Because the Word became flesh, we have a high priest who is able to empathize with our weaknesses, one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet He did not sin (Hebrews 4:15).
Jesus himself said...
John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”


And since you seem so fond of the NIV.... read

John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

JW twists this

John 8:24 That is why I said to you: You will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.”

And last also a twister.

GWT
John 8:24 24 For this reason I told you that you'll die because of your sins. If you don't believe that I am the one, you'll die because of your sins."
 
Never read anything like that in any Bible.
You never heard of the Cross or Regeneration?
According to your religions' doctrine, why did a member of the Trinity require God being his savior?
Jesus was our Exemplar when on Earth.
Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Excellent Trinitarian verse showing how Jesus was our Exemplar on Earth.
 
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