The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[Peterlag]

Let's bring in John 1:14 and try to harmonize all verses.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

So if flesh is sinful then Jesus is automatically sinful. What does that tell you? Flesh is not sinful by itself. It is our walking in the flesh (not in the Spirit) that is sinful. It is our volitional deliberate catering to the flesh that is sinful. Without our catering to it, there is no sin.

You can't read the Bible like that. This is what you're doing. For an example let's say Peter was with Eve. Now this is how I will prove it jumping around like you do taking words out of there context. The Scriptures say Satan talked to Eve. Jesus told Peter to get behind him and then called Peter Satan. Now bring these words together in your harmonizing is how I can say since Jesus called Peter Satan and since Eve called it Satan. Therefore it must have been Peter Eve was talking to. Like I said before... nobody ever taught you how to read the Bible. And so you jump from one verse to another.

 

[Peterlag]

I read everything you wrote. He is right. You believe that man has a sinful nature instead of being born innocent.

You can't defend this nonsense. Jesus Christ carried the traits of Mary which carried the traits of mothers and fathers throughout their lineages.

I'll be glad to discuss aspects of trichotomy and dichotomy with you. I'm certain you've never even heard of such.

I have no idea what you guys believe. But whatever it is it's not the doctrine of the Bible.

 

[MTMattie]

According to the context, the Word is not God. The Word isn't the Creator in verses 2-3 and 9-10. Also the Word is described as a thing in 1 John 1:1-3. No one there in the Old Testament named the Word saying or doing anything. No one else talked about the "Word" as someone with God. Logos theology is incredibly weak.

John 1 (NIV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Do you understand what you are reading?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Read now the way the Complete Jewish Bible says things.
1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was Yochanan. 7 He came to be a testimony, to bear witness concerning the light; so that through him, everyone might put his trust in God and be faithful to him. 8 He himself was not that light; no, he came to bear witness concerning the light.

9 This was the true light,
which gives light to everyone entering the world.

10 He was in the world — the world came to be through him —
yet the world did not know him.

 

[synergy]

You can't read the Bible like that.

Sure I can. I just did.

This is what you're doing. For an example let's say Peter was with Eve. Now this is how I will prove it jumping around like you do taking words out of there context. The Scriptures say Satan talked to Eve. Jesus told Peter to get behind him and then called Peter Satan. Now bring these words together in your harmonizing is how I can say since Jesus called Peter Satan and since Eve called it Satan. Therefore it must have been Peter Eve was talking to. Like I said before... nobody ever taught you how to read the Bible. And so you jump from one verse to another.

Peter is still Peter. He didn't morph into satan. Your example crashes and burns.

What you're doing is ascribing sin to flesh, thus making your unitarian Jesus a possessor of sin.

 

[TomL]

You can't read the Bible like that. This is what you're doing. For an example let's say Peter was with Eve. Now this is how I will prove it jumping around like you do taking words out of there context. The Scriptures say Satan talked to Eve. Jesus told Peter to get behind him and then called Peter Satan. Now bring these words together in your harmonizing is how I can say since Jesus called Peter Satan and since Eve called it Satan. Therefore it must have been Peter Eve was talking to. Like I said before... nobody ever taught you how to read the Bible. And so you jump from one verse to another.

Actuaslly it was your example that is all over the place

John 1:14 is plain

The word became flesh and men beheld his glory, the glory as the only-begotten

The word was the only-begotten

The Only begotten was Christ

thus the Word is identified as becoming Jesus Christ

 

[Peterlag]

Actuaslly it was your example that is all over the place

John 1:14 is plain

The word became flesh and men beheld his glory, the glory as the only-begotten

The word was the only-begotten

The Only begotten was Christ

thus the Word is identified as becoming Jesus Christ

We were not talking about the trinity. At least I was not. We were talking about the sin nature. But since you want to bring up John 1:14. Then here's how I see it...

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Runningman]

You never heard of the Cross or Regeneration?

Yes I have.

Jesus was our Exemplar when on Earth.

Excellent Trinitarian verse showing how Jesus was our Exemplar on Earth.

How is Jesus not being able to resurrect himself a Trinitarian verse? To me that reads like Jesus did what I would have done if I couldn't save myself.

 

[Runningman]

That is a flat out denial of "the Word was God" (John 1:1). The audience can clearly decide who is Biblical and who is Heretical.

Context exists.

Yes let's see who the heretic is.

Is ho Logos the same person as Ton Theon?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

 

[Runningman]

Do you understand what you are reading?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made.

9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Read now the way the Complete Jewish Bible says things.
1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was Yochanan. 7 He came to be a testimony, to bear witness concerning the light; so that through him, everyone might put his trust in God and be faithful to him. 8 He himself was not that light; no, he came to bear witness concerning the light.

9 This was the true light,
which gives light to everyone entering the world.

10 He was in the world — the world came to be through him —
yet the world did not know him.

I want you to take an honest look at John 1:2,3. Take off your trinitarian hat and just be a normal person with common sense and decent reading comprehension. Who is the God the Word was with and who is the Creator?

John 1 (NIV)
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Runningman]

Sure I can. I just did.

Peter is still Peter. He didn't morph into satan. Your example crashes and burns.

What you're doing is ascribing sin to flesh, thus making your unitarian Jesus a possessor of sin.

When Jesus called Peter Satan, Peter wasn't Satan. When Thomas said "my God" Jesus wasn't God. Check & Mate.

 

[TomL]

We were not talking about the trinity. At least I was not. We were talking about the sin nature. But since you want to bring up John 1:14. Then here's how I see it...

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Care to explain how an impersonal thing

created and sustains everything?

How an impersonal thing existed in the form of God, had a mind, could consider, make himself of no reputation as in Phil 2:5ff ?

Can state he came down from heaven and had glory with the father before the world was?

Was shown to be in desert during the exodus 1 Cor 10:4 & 9

and

Matthew 1:18 (ESV) — 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

simply shows his birth as flesh and does nothing to deny his pre-existence as the word

 

[synergy]

Yes I have.

That's Trinitarianism right there

How is Jesus not being able to resurrect himself a Trinitarian verse? To me that reads like Jesus did what I would have done if I couldn't save myself.

He did say thr following in John 2:19. Are you going to disavow this verse also?

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

[synergy]

Context exists.

The English and Greek language exists. You are flat disavowing the phrase "the Word was God".

Yes let's see who the heretic is.

We already can see who understands English and who doesn't.

Is ho Logos the same person as Ton Theon?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Make your case on why we should all misread the phrase "the Word was God". This will be interesting ...

 

[TomL]

Context exists.

Yes let's see who the heretic is.

Is ho Logos the same person as Ton Theon?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Sorry by now you should understand that is not the trinitarian view but a modalist one

The trinitarian view is that both as are the being class known as God (i.e. deity)

 

[synergy]

When Jesus called Peter Satan, Peter wasn't Satan. When Thomas said "my God" Jesus wasn't God. Check & Mate.

You possess a dirt poor understanding of attributes. Peter was manifesting the attributes of satan that many people especially politicians manifest. How many people manifest the attributes of God such as power over death? O I forgot, you think people become God. You sound like a closet Mormon.

Then Christians sit on the throne of God and become God lol. Wow... back to the drawing board.

 

[MTMattie]

That's Trinitarianism right there

He did say thr following in John 2:19. Are you going to disavow this verse also?

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Wont be understood by the anti-Trins. But good point and kudos to you

 

[Runningman]

That's Trinitarianism right there

How is the cross and regeneration the Trinity? The Trinity died on the cross?

He did say thr following in John 2:19. Are you going to disavow this verse also?

The grammar of John 2:22 disproves Jesus raised himself from the dead.

John 2 (NIV)
22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Prophetic of what YHWH would do. Bible trivia time. Who is said to have crushed or bruised Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

The English and Greek language exists. You are flat disavowing the phrase "the Word was God".

We already can see who understands English and who doesn't.

Make your case on why we should all misread the phrase "the Word was God". This will be interesting ...

Are you going to directly answer my question or not? I invited you to answer it, not dance around the issue.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry by now you should understand that is not the trinitarian view but a modalist one

The trinitarian view is that both as are the being class known as God (i.e. deity)

I can understand your unwillingness to directly answer my question. You know if your heart what the truth is. You just can't say it because you hate it.

 

[Runningman]

You possess a dirt poor understanding of attributes. Peter was manifesting the attributes of satan that many people especially politicians manifest. How many people manifest the attributes of God such as power over death? O I forgot, you think people become God. You sound like a closet Mormon.

Since Peter isn't saying then Jesus isn't God.

Matthew 16 (NIV)
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!

John 20 (NIV)
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”